EP 236: Sasheen Artis

EP 236 Sasheen Artis

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] Hi friends, you're listening to the other 50 percent of Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. This is the show where we talk to women and historically marginalized people and share their success and strategy in the entertainment industry. We also talk to people who are doing the work of creating more opportunity and making things better in the business.

And sometimes we talk to people who are doing both. Today is one of those days. Today I got to speak with two time Emmy winning producer, Sasheen Artis, who is the Founder/ CEO of Plenty of Pie, a talent incubator and production accelerator offering leadership development, practical producer skill training, and mentorship to emerging and mid career creatives of color.

Sasheen has worked with such newsmakers as President Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and director Jonathan Demme. Her latest film, Birthing Justice, addressing black maternal health outcomes, screened for 200 countries at the United Nations and as part of a continuing education course for the American Medical [00:01:00] Association. It currently airs on PBS and you should go watch it.

She got her start at Paramount Home Entertainment, working on blockbuster marketing campaigns for Titanic. Mission Impossible, Braveheart, and TV series like Star Trek, The Next Generation, and Nickelodeon's Rugrats. She's a member of the Television Academy, the Producers Guild, and Sigma Gamma Rho Sorority, Inc.

Sasheen is originally from Harlem, New York, and earned her B. A. in Psychology from Stanford University. We talked about all the things she's working on and shared our unpopular opinions about the color purple. You can find us online at TheOther50Percent. com, all spelled out in letters, as well as on all the podcast places.

And you can find links to everything I'm up to on the link tree that is in the show notes and at JulieHarrisOliver. com. Here, have a listen. Sasheen Artis, welcome back to The Other 50 Percent.

Sasheen Artis: Thank you so much for having me, Julie. It's been amazing to see you blossom and grow, and I'm so glad to be back.[00:02:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: It's so nice to have you. I remember we talked in 2018, episode 132, if you're following along at home, you want to go look it up in here. Sasheen's amazing life story, which You won't believe. So go listen to that. We won't dig into it all again. We'll make people go back and listen to 132. It's probably on the website.

I don't know if it's on Apple Podcasts anymore, but it'll be on the website and I'll link to it in the show notes. So I know you've been up to so many things, so I definitely want to catch up. It's been, is that six years since we talked? 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23,

Sasheen Artis: 24. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's been, it's, you know, it's everything pre COVID.

It's sort of like a whole century ago.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's like a whole lifetime. Everything has changed and nothing has changed. And what is time? So what have you been up to?

Sasheen Artis: Oh my goodness. So let's see in 2018. Last we spoke, I don't know if I had just come back from Jordan or if I was heading to Jordan. I think you were headed there.

So it was an amazing trip. [00:03:00] I had been invited by Her Royal Highness Princess Ramali to, and the Royal Film Commission to do a workshop there with their creatives. And it was brilliant. So they, you know, we, I created this. Curriculum. And it was eight spectacular Jordanian, uh, Syrian, Palestinian, just a whole host of beautiful, beautiful stories and creatives that wanted to understand the Hollywood system, understand pitching and all the things.

And so I had an opportunity. I had another PGA member with me producers Guild of America. Her name was Rachel Watanabe Batten. She's an Emmy award winning producer. She came with me. She's based in New York. And so we, you know, she flew out of New York. I flew out of LA. We met there and it was just a spectacular, like 10 days.

It was just brilliant. Incredible. May 18 was 2018. And then 2019, I actually worked on a show [00:04:00] called lost LA. and that was a docuseries for, for KCET. And that was really cool. It's all things, Los Angeles, these hidden gems, you know, go while going through different archives all across the, the SoCal area on that show.

I produced six episodes. With them and won two Emmys and it was crazy because I won, you know, during COVID. So I literally, you know, was sitting on the edge of my bed in some sweats, drinking some tea. You didn't get to go to the party? No parties, no paparazzi, nothing. It was just like, oh, okay. So I did get the Emmy though, which was great.

Amazing. Yeah, so that was fun. And then in 2022. I had the opportunity to work on a documentary, a feature length doc called Birthing Justice. And that, it's on Black maternal health outcomes and the solutions that are working across the country. We went to several different locations, [00:05:00] Augusta, Georgia, D. C.,

the Boothill of Missouri, as well as St. Louis, as well as Los Angeles. And we, you know, traveled around and found these amazing women, women who had complications with their pregnancy, but overcame them, with, you know, the, the care and, and, medical treatment that they needed. And understanding that, you know, when you provide those services, to women and whether it, you know, it didn't matter whether they were poor or wealthy, upper middle class, lower middle class did not matter.

They, they had these opportunities to get care. And that care saved their lives, saved the lives of their babies. And it's currently, Birthing Justice is currently airing on PBS. It's still there on the pbs. org platform. it's, it's really aspirational. It's very hopeful. It's not depressing at all. So please, you know, people can go check it out and be uplifted.[00:06:00]

one thing that was great about the documentary. Is that, the American Medical Association, picked it up as a continuing education course. So now medical professionals, if they need to get a unit, cause a lot of times you have to, you know, even though you have, you have your, your, your MD and you're working, you still need to get a continuing education credits.

They can, take that course, watch the film, and then they can incorporate those practices into their own medical practice. Because I was going to

Julie Harris Oliver: say, if Serena Williams can't get competent maternity care

Sasheen Artis: Exactly. Exactly. Serena, Beyonce, one of our, executive producers, Alison Felix, she's an Olympian, you know, she has like 11 medals. Probably the healthiest woman in the world. And she, you know, had eclampsia and it was one of those things where it was life or death. And, you know, she had to, deliver her, her daughter [00:07:00] prematurely. and she goes into this all, you know, in the, in the documentary, you know, how scary it was. And she didn't have.

you know, any understanding of what was going on or that she would be even prone to it. So, you know, a lot of times doctors have to take a little bit more care with their, black female patients and make sure that, you know, they're monitoring their, their high blood pressure and all those things. So, It's a, it's a great, documentary to learn from and to be uplifted by.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wonderful. It's so important. I'm so glad that you have done that. Can we talk a little bit about the diversity initiative at the producers guild of America power of diversity master workshop?

Sasheen Artis: Yes. Yes. So, back in 2017, well, I should start a little bit earlier. So I joined the guild in 2013, uh, became a mentor of the program in [00:08:00] 2014 and, you know, really, you know, start under, you know, understanding what they were trying to do.

you know, reading through the, the, mentees projects and then, joined their selection committee in 2015. Yeah. And in 2017, I was invited to chair the project, the program. And it gave me an opportunity to see, you know, Oh, there's no infrastructure. Oh, they're just kind of winging it. It's like, Oh my God, it was insane.

So I had to, you know, develop a manual and really get a rubric established in terms of how, how the selection process was implemented. and then really made sure that our mentors were trained to be very intentional. So not just give advice, but, you know, give advice and also making sure that they had opened up their Rolodexes and, you know, invited them to [00:09:00] opportunities, different networking, events.

Making sure that there was actual engagement with the participants so that when they culminated and, you know, they practiced their pitches and we had them pitching to, you know, folks like Mary Parent of Legendary Entertainment and Princess Penny, with Issa Rae's, company and her show. And, you know, getting these opportunities that they, they may not have ever had, but they were real opportunities.

So, you know, folks actually reading their scripts, reading their, your treatments and proposals, you know, connecting them like Mary parent, one of our participants, he was a, he was graduating from AFI. And his senior thesis, you know, she connected with him. She connected him to Sundance, like the collab.

And then from Sundance, he was connected to Spike Lee and Spike Lee boarded his project, his senior thesis project as an EP. [00:10:00] And it's like mind blowing. It's insane. But you know, it was opportunities like that, that the, producers guild, diversity workshop. I really, made sure that participants got real, connection.

cause a lot of times, you know, people will bounce from workshop to workshop, program to program, and they're just bouncing. They're not actually getting, you know, projects made. They're not getting, you know, hired. They're not getting agents. but this was really, I was really intentional about making sure that they were going to get something out of it.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you went ahead and produced that program.

Sasheen Artis: I did. I did. I am a producer. That is what I do. Yes. And that

Julie Harris Oliver: feels like the missing piece of so many programs. I was just speaking with the women of, GenXX Project. And Yeah. Yeah. You can shadow your entire life as a director, but it's getting the actual job, getting the actual opportunity to take all of your preparation and all of your education and all of [00:11:00] your practice and, and make it actually

Sasheen Artis: happen.

Exactly. I mean, I think, you know, if you look at the, the landscape of programs out there, there are so many writer's programs, director's programs, animation, editor below the line, all that. But very few for producers. I mean, if you go, you know, you could go and get a degree if you want to go to USC or UCLA, or if you want to, you know, be, if you're already a member of the Writers Guild, you could do their showrunners workshop, but there's very few opportunities to really get that pathway to leadership.

And pathway to, you know, understanding all the things that it takes in order to be a producer, you know, the budget, the schedule, you know, risk management, conflict resolution, you know, negotiations, all the things that we need to know as producers and implement every day on every project. Yeah, it's so important.

Julie Harris Oliver: And. Also like when, when writers get in that producer position, because you've been a wonderful writer, [00:12:00] but you may not have really had any training in those particular skills that you so need in order to make this work.

Sasheen Artis: Right. I mean, producing is managing, you know, a team and it could be a team of a hundred and some odd people, you know, producing is like business.

It's, you know, entrepreneurial, it's, you know, finding financing, it's, you know, connecting with all the people that are going to be involved in this process and being able. to help them see your vision and help them implement that vision. So it is, it is a skill set that is not writing. It's not directing.

It really is very unique and it's a very powerful space. And that's why you'll find that there are a lot of, of people of color that aren't in those spaces. They don't even know how to, or know that they exist, except for the fact that they're the persons that, you know, that's how they get hired. They send their resume to the line producer, to their, to the EP.

So

Julie Harris Oliver: looking back, I was looking back at the episode we did together, 132, [00:13:00] and I'd written in the notes that we, that we had nailed the business case for diversity, which seems so ridiculous to me now and that such archaic language. And why is anyone still proving a business case? And I read something recently on LinkedIn and I wish I had written down the woman who wrote this comment because it has stuck with me and I want to give her credit.

Bye. Bye. Bye. But she asked, it was on a long train of some DEI, something someone had put up. When was the last time a group of white male executives were asked to do a business plan as to why their leadership team should stay homogenous?

Sasheen Artis: And never, never in the history of anything. Yes. In the history of ever, never

Julie Harris Oliver: has that ever happened.

And because we're all just expected to just think that that's, that's, that's the way the Lord, that's

Sasheen Artis: the way. Mm hmm. Mm

Julie Harris Oliver: hmm. Which is absurd. Okay, so knowing where we are now and kind of where we've come in this journey, [00:14:00] what do you think the actual next steps are? Because enough making the business case.

We all know the business case. Mm hmm. So what do you think are our next steps to actually implement some

Sasheen Artis: real change? I think the next steps really Is to start getting into those spaces of leadership because there's no way you're going to be able to convince someone, you know, that they're good with where they are, they're, they're okay with, yeah, they're, they're, they're okay with leaving billions of dollars on the table and wondering, Oh, what do we do?

They're okay with that. And until someone says, okay, this is what we do. And have, and have the power and the authority to say that and do it and implement that. That's when things change. So I feel it's really important for, you know, historically marginalized communities, you know, historically excluded communities, and that's all, you know, all the intersectionality, you know.

Everyone needs to have a place at the [00:15:00] table and they need to have the power to do to do the thing and to make the change. So I think it's really now about, you know, moving those spaces into leadership, moving those creatives into leadership positions and giving them the soft skills training and, you know, all of the tools because, you know, a ceo isn't a ceo just by title a ceo.

You know, they get executive coaching, they learn how to, you know, dress, the learn how to eat, they get all of those things. And no one talks about that. You know, it's very hidden, but you know, there, there are people out there that are selling services to, to CEOs for half a million dollars. It's like, are you serious?

Executive presence.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yes. That's the thing that's taught. Yeah.

Sasheen Artis: And so why is it. They're taught that, but they're not taught how to actually make a creative decision. [00:16:00] You know, how to, you know, how to weigh looking at and looking at a story, looking at a script and whatnot and thinking about the audience that it should, it should be made for and where that audience reside.

You know, when you have all of those things, when you have the executive presence and you have the creative moxie and you know exactly where your project should be, that is gold. That is gold in the bank. And I think it's time for, you know, folks like myself and, and for all the folks that I know who are working in this space to really start thinking about leadership opportunities and training folks to get into spaces of leadership.

Amen.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think this is where

Sasheen Artis: plenty of pie comes in. Exactly. And so that, that's what ended up, you know, I coming out of the producers guilds, diversity workshop, they, they totally, you know, after my term ended in 2020, [00:17:00] we had pivoted during COVID we made it online and it was amazing because then you could, you know, get people from all over to, to, you know, engage.

I realized that it was, you had the opportunity even online to create community. So the virtual space wasn't, a hindrance. It was actually an help. And so I looked at, well, what, what is needed? And obviously for me, it's all about leadership, all about producing and getting people in these, you know, in these spaces to lead.

And so I, I launched a company called plenty of pie. And it's a talent incubator and a production accelerator, to train, provide that soft skills training, that leadership development, as well as those hard producing skills, you know, the budgeting, the scheduling, you know, all, you know, all the things you need to know as a producer.

And a, you know, my production accelerator is really focused on, you know, producing diverse projects, producing, projects that are, you know, whether they're [00:18:00] film, TV, or documentary. But are specifically their core audience is, a diverse audience and diversity is a very, wide ranging, space. So it's not just, it's not just race or ethnicity, it's LGBTQ, it's religion, it's, military.

It's gender, and it's disability and accessibility. And so understanding that there are rich, bountiful stories out there, that, you know, people, they've probably read them. They've possibly even optioned them, but they've never produced them, you know? And it's like, well, if you, if you liked it enough to spend the money on it to option, or you liked it enough to give a person a job on someone else's show, well, maybe we should just like, if we like it, let's, let's make that.

You know, there are literally piles of scripts out there that have never been made that people actually like, you know, that, that, that can be made that can, that do have an audience. And [00:19:00] so, I, I started plenty of pie with the intention of finding and curating those scripts, finding those projects. And, you know, connecting them to distribution, connecting them to funding opportunities and getting them made.

Julie Harris Oliver: So this feels like the most gate kept, if that's how you say the word, gate kept area, is the connecting to the, to get in the room, to pitch, to get to the financing, to get to the power I'm saying in quotation marks, that can make something actually happen because there's a lot of. I think there are a lot of programs that help people prepare and help refine their idea and refine their pitch and get ready to do the thing.

I think where your program, at least one of the ways it's super unique, is to actually make that connection. So how do you

Sasheen Artis: do that? Pick up the phone. A lot of times Because you know some people. I know, and even when I don't know them, I'm like, I make the [00:20:00] case. And I call them cold sometimes if I have to.

Or if I don't, if I don't know them, can I get To someone that I know who knows them because you know, that's what we do as producers. I don't know everyone in this town. Everyone doesn't know me, but you know, that whole six degrees of separation is real. You know, there are, I, I do have six degrees of separation to Kevin Bacon.

It's crazy. It's probably less than six. It really is. And that's a whole story unto it unto itself. But understanding that. We are all connected in this industry, and if I don't know someone, I know someone else does, but it really becomes a question of just picking up the phone and saying, Hey, I have this project or, Hey, this is what I'm trying to do.

Are you interested? Because a lot of times, you know, people don't know they're interested until you ask them and they're like, Hey, well, let's, let's think about it. Let's talk about it. Let's get, you know, get to know each other because it's all about relationships. And, [00:21:00] you know, people want to succeed, they want success, and if you're bringing them an opportunity that smells of success, they want it, they want to know about it, and they want to see how they can get involved, so that's what we, that's what I try to do.

As you're talking

Julie Harris Oliver: about that, you sound so fearless, in a, in a town that's run by fear.

Sasheen Artis: You know, there, there, there's fear. There's healthy fear, you know, and then there's fear that stops you. And I, I understand that, you know, I don't know everything. I don't know everybody. I don't have the money. I don't have the things, but I know that I have a vision and as a producer.

What we do is we take a vision and make it real. That's what we do. That's what i've been doing for the past 20 some odd years like what 29 years. I I take a vision So if you say sasheen, I want to do a [00:22:00] movie about butterflies Okay We could do a movie about butterflies there. There's no fear in that. And because I know, okay, I know what a butterfly is, what type of movie do we wanna make?

Do we wanna make an animation? Do we wanna make a documentary? Do we wanna make some experimental Kafka aspect? It, it's all about knowing what it is, strategizing it out, planning it out, and then doing it. And so for me, fear, it's as long as it doesn't stop me, as long as it doesn't paralyze me, it's healthy.

It's a healthy fear because you don't know until it happens. You know, you don't know until someone picks up the phone. You don't know until they say yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: So back to, I don't know, was that book in the seventies? Feel the fear and do it anyway.

Sasheen Artis: Oh, there you go.

Julie Harris Oliver: Was that Louise Haye, back in the day, I think the phrase still stands.

Sasheen Artis: Yeah. And just to do it, it's the Nike, you know, just do it.

Julie Harris Oliver: So who is this program for [00:23:00] and what can they expect? What's the process?

Sasheen Artis: So it is for emerging creative. So, and I say emerging, if you have, if you've gone to school, you know, if you've graduated from whatever, and you've been in, you know, in somebody's workforce for a couple of years and you really, really said, you know what, I've always wanted to direct, or I've always wanted to write, you know, and you really are looking at, the entertainment industry as a space that's emerging creative to me, that's someone who, who has that passion.

Then I look at also mid career. So maybe you're in this industry. Maybe you've been in it for 10 years and you've been an accountant or you've been, you know, in post and you want to make a pivot and you want to pivot to producing that's fine too, because for me, it's about. Understanding, you know, basic concepts because I'm not a film school.

I'm not teaching lenses. I'm not teaching, you know, you know, the latest cameras. That's not what it is. [00:24:00] I really am focusing on folks that know the basics. Now let's get to the nitty. Let's get to that. You know, let's, let's, you know, break down the script and understand how to budget. let's break it down and you know, how to schedule and build in enough time so that you can make a delivery date, you know, understanding that producing, you know, when I was talking about having a vision and bring, bring it to fruition, you can plan, you know, the best of plans, you know, the best laid plans.

It they will always you know be impacted by all the different troubles of you know, whether it's you know, Whether whether it's people whether it's resources And as a producer you have to overcome Each of those troubles each of those obstacles every hour every day until you get the thing made and you know helping people understand What that feels like and it's, it's, it's great when it, when it all works, you know, it great when you deliver [00:25:00] on time, but even, you know, if you have troubles along the way, if you have those obstacles, how do you overcome them to get to the thing, you know, so

Julie Harris Oliver: overcome it.

Every day, like you might have three terrible days

Sasheen Artis: along. Yes, yes. And so people, I think, so for my, my participants, I'm looking at folks who are willing to take on that challenge because it takes a special kind of person to be willing to overcome challenge and obstacles every day to get to a thing. and it also takes, the plan and the strategy and a logistical person.

because you know, everyone wants at the end, they want the lights, they want the paparazzi and all that and producing, we, we just go on to the next thing, you know, we, we get the, you know, we, we get the opportunity to experience it on the big screen or on the small screen and okay, now we've moved on.

You know, so it really requires a person who has that willingness and that stamina. who, you [00:26:00] know, wants to lead and wants to learn and it's, and again, it's open. It's not, you know, there's no age, minimum is, you know, we'd like for you to be an adult. So 21, but other than that, you know, it's, it's basically, you know, open.

And is

Julie Harris Oliver: it rolling enrollment or do you have cohorts?

Sasheen Artis: So yes, I do have a cohort. I'm going to launch my inaugural cohort, this year. I'm opening, my applications this spring. so people can, go on my website and, just sign in as a, a subscriber. And I, you know, send out a newsletter every couple of months, just giving people updates, what I'm doing, this is what's going on.

This is how you can get engaged me, you know, here and there. And then, I will announce my open, hopefully in the next couple of months, so that way they, people have an opportunity to get ready. Cause you know, we need a script. and [00:27:00] it doesn't have to be, you know, perfect, but it has to be finished.

It has to be a finished script. it cannot be an already produced project. it can be for a documentary, it can be a treatment, a documentary proposal. and I also have a free documentary, proposal template that if people want, they can request from me and I'll send it to them, because. Those are very helpful when you are structuring a documentary because from that proposal, it's like 10 pages.

It really, is very detailed and it helps, the, the creative understand exactly what they're going to shoot, where they're going to shoot it, and, and gives them a roadmap and it helps the reader understand exactly what they're trying to accomplish. So we have proposals available, you know, templates available for them.

and, I do have, currently five projects already in my accelerator. we [00:28:00] have, an FBI project. That's amazing. a woman who is a retired, FBI agent of 34 years of career. she's African American woman, one of the highest ranking, female agents while she was working. And then I have a movie that's a biopic based upon the life [00:29:00] of Hal Walker, who is a laser engineer, African American laser engineer, who's featured in the Smithsonian Institute and the Apollo 11 exhibit.

amazing man. he's, you know, still alive, 90 years old. now he lives in South Africa, with his wife, Dr. Betty Walker, and who is also amazing in her own right. So we're doing a, a biopic on them. And also a documentary series called Common Voices, with the award winning journalist, Bonnie Boswell, who is a journalist, through PBS.

she has a series currently called Bonnie Boswell Reports, and we're doing, a different, type of exploration, for across the country, you know, looking at diverse communities and, you know, what, what we're doing to make America better. Make America great again.

Julie Harris Oliver: I don't know how carefully you're choosing those words.

[00:30:00] It's so, Helpful. I think as you were talking about the documentary kind of pitch template, because it's one thing to say, Oh, I have this great idea for an unscripted something or a documentary. It's a, it's a very different, I found out recently, it's a very different thing to say, okay, what are six episodes going to look like?

What are you actually going to cover? What's the through line? What are you building towards? What's the, you know, there has to be a reason for someone to watch it other than what an interesting thing. So it's an incredible, skill, I think, to help people do. Yeah.

Sasheen Artis: I mean, for us, you know, I've produced about 20 or so docs, and doc series and, you know, you get into a rhythm with them.

and when you're reading something, When I'm reading something that someone says, Oh, it's a great idea. I should be able to see it. I should be able to visualize it along with them. So giving someone a template to help them, along that, [00:31:00] is going to help them with anyone, whether it's me as a producer or anybody else.

being able to read it and visualize it and, and feel that same emotion and greatness on the page is, is key. So giving them that template, I think it's, you know, it's free, it's helpful. and you know, also a lot of times people don't know where to start. So if you say, okay, you know, once upon a time, just start it once upon a time, you know, and go from there.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, and then also I remaining flexible enough to, you know, what if it goes in a, in a really different direction, like the John Batiste documentary that just came out, that went a completely different way than how they played at the beginning of it. It's incredible. Yes,

Sasheen Artis: and you have to be willing as a producer and a director to, to allow your story to breathe and be, you know, take on the, to take on new, purposes.

So, being flexible, but when you're in the pitch mode, when you're, you know, before anything's shot. Being able [00:32:00] to, you know, give someone a clear, delineation as to what they're, they should expect is, you know, that's how you sell it. You know, now if, you know, if, you know, once you film it and you're like, Oh, we have a totally different story.

That's fine. That's why you got to start. You already have the money, but yes,

Julie Harris Oliver: exactly. Don't make the person who's receiving your pitch make it

Sasheen Artis: up, right, right. It's not going to be the same story. It'll be their story.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. We talked about how people can find you. How did they apply? We did all of this. Okay.

Yes. Plenty of pie. net and we will link to it in the show notes. Now, can we talk for a minute? We started talking about this before we turn on the microphone. So I definitely want to get in this conversation. Oh, It, it feels like with the streaming wars in chaos and the strikes, like the industry is trying to reinvent its business model, right?

And how is that playing out from where you're sitting? What does that look like to you? I

Sasheen Artis: think, [00:33:00] well, right now I feel the, the industry's in this inertia, you know, the nothing's moving, nothing's happening. And you, you hear about, you know, Oh, someone sold this big package at EFM or someone sold something at Sundance.

And that's great. but the reality is, is that's the one thing that's the two things that may be the 10 things, but that is not going to sustain an industry. So we have to actually get back into, you know, what is this industry supposed to be about? And if it's the business of telling stories, then people have to understand that sometimes that business.

Is not going to be, shareholder connected because the shareholder has a different, you know, imperative than the creative. So we have to rub. So we have to get into a, an alignment where the shareholder understands. [00:34:00] That the business of storytelling is not necessarily the same thing as a consumer product.

It's not the same thing as selling, you know, a Pepsi or a pair of shoes. So I think people have to understand, when they are, you know, if they're launching a production company or they're launching a distribution firm or launching anything that has investors. Be very clear about what your business is about because the business of storytelling, and if we look at the history of the industry, this has always been about selling a product.

So I think our business model really has to focus back on the creative, re really reconnect to, what it was originally meant for, which was brands, selling a brand and, you know, move away from that investor relationship that is, you know, that Trump's everything, you know, that, oh, we have to make money and we have to give money, money, money for our shareholders.

So we're going to lay off, you know, 10, 000 people. No, because now [00:37:00] your business is going to suffer from that. You know, so let's rethink what are our, what we're supposed to be doing as leaders, as producers, as executives in this industry, what this industry was originally created for and go back to that.

Julie Harris Oliver: I worry that the shareholders are in too deep.

Sasheen Artis: Possibly. And also they don't, you know, they're not really connected to the creative. They don't see the value of storytelling. They're just looking to make a buck. And if you're, if you're not connected to the thing that you're making, you know, if you're an engineer and you've built the world's tallest skyscraper, every time you walk past that skyscraper, you know, I have done that.

I've contributed to that. I've made that happen, but the shareholders have absolutely no connectivity to the movies that we make, [00:38:00] the TV series that we produce. They have no, they, they don't understand how valuable they are in that process. And I think we have to really. Engage them on a personal level, engage them on a relationship level.

Understand that, you know, it's not, you know, tech is great tech, you know, tech is tools, but it's really about humans. And it's really about person and person to person connection. Understanding that, you know, if you have an investor, you're, you're not only taking their money, it's a trust. It's a trust that you're building and you want to give them something that they can be proud of.

It's not just, oh, that it made them a lot of money. You want them to be proud of the thing. And I think we've, we've taken out the emotionality of that relationship and we've made it very transactional. And I think that's, that's what has made us fall in this space because this, this is not a, a transactional business.

It is a relationship. It is about human [00:39:00] condition. And when you take that out of the equation, you don't have anything. This

Julie Harris Oliver: does feel like the problem. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it, cause the business itself is profitable as a business. Oh, absolutely. Thousands of thousands of really good jobs. And, but then the added layer of, then you got to pay these people back billions of dollars.

To the detriment of everyone who's making this stuff, it seems insanity to me.

Sasheen Artis: And it is, I mean, there was an article a couple of weeks ago that they, they had a, the industry itself as a whole, movies, you know, TV, documentary, all the things has a trillion dollar valuation. Trillion. T. R. Trillion. I mean, it's like, so we know there's, there's, there's money to be made here.

We know that there's great opportunity here, but I think the relationship of what we're doing to the people who are funding it has become distorted. and I don't think they understand how [00:40:00] important, they are in the process and how we are relating to them. I just think our relationship is broken because it, it, it doesn't serve us when we lose the, the, the thing.

It doesn't serve us when we lose the industry. We doesn't serve us when we, you know, fail, you know, to, to deliver, because we're trying to do, we're just trying to make money. Well, no, we want, we want to actually make a story. We want to make a story that audiences enjoy. And we can't do that if we're just trying to make money, right?

It's

Julie Harris Oliver: the money plus all the things. It's the shaping culture. It's the moving hearts, all the things. so let's talk about, we, we started talking about kind of the IP cycle of book to movie, to Broadway, musical, to movie, musical,

Sasheen Artis: every

Julie Harris Oliver: single thing. and we were talking about the color purple, like that model.

I it's been so fun, like mean girls, wicked rent. [00:41:00] But let's talk about the color purple. It's fresh for me because I watched it last night with my daughter, the musical version. And I said to her, what you said to me, which is I started by reading the book.

Sasheen Artis: Yeah, I started by reading the book. I read the book when I was a teenager and it was a.

A story that made a tremendous impact on me. but to the point where it's like, I don't want to see that song and danced around. I don't want to see, you know, her, her struggles and her, the, the horrors that she lived immortalized in that way. And so that's just my personal take. but I, I also look at it is when they made that movie, you know, what, 30 years ago with Whoopi Goldberg, with Oprah Winfrey, that became a, it's a seminal version.

It was, that was it. It's like, you know, the Godfather, you, you know, you have folks out there that are, you know, reciting the lines from that [00:42:00] movie, you know, they have memes from that movie that has lasted. So even if you never saw that movie, you know, the connection. And to, to remake it, I thought it was unnecessary.

Cause you know, if you're not going to remake the Godfather. Then why would you remake the color purple? You know, it, it had that level of quality, that level of, you know, zeitgeist presence in our culture. It was perfect. And so I look at when, when folks want to do a remake, it's like, well. What, why are you trying to do a remake?

Are there no other stories that touch on, you know, domestic violence or woman personhood, or, you know, are there no other stories out there? Is it that you want to do a story like that, or you just want to see if you could make more money off of the same story and I think we, we fail ourselves tremendously when we.

Don't [00:43:00] want to just try something new. because yeah, I mean, you had, you had a great cast. You had, you know, a great opportunity to, to make something spectacular and a little, you know, millions of people have enjoyed it, but would they have enjoyed something new? You know, would you have connected to an entirely new group of folks that weren't trying to compare it to something else, you know?

Oh, well, I saw that. Well, I saw this on Broadway. Well, I, yeah, I did. You don't want that. You want something fresh. You want something new. You don't want to give people, you know, the, the opportunity to compare it to something seminal, you know, cause it's never going to live up to it. That's the whole point of being seminal.

Well,

Julie Harris Oliver: so I was watching this with my daughter last night, who's 23. And I was like, Oh yeah, the color purple. And I was like, I read the book. I watched the movie. I saw the Broadway show. And now, now here's the musical. And don't get me wrong. I love a musical. I'm, [00:44:00] I'm here for the musical. But when we started watching and, and she was asking like, this is a terrible story.

Like how many hours of black trauma are we going to watch right now? And I was watching it going, Oh yeah. Like what? What and I remember the takeaway from the story being oh, I love that it moved me so deeply Oh, it's so beautiful. But then watching it. It's so traumatic and so Horrible, like it really is the worst story in the whole world and then that's it the final scene Where she has survived, she has triumphed.

The sister came back, you know, we're sobbing, we're sobbing. And it's so beautiful. And I think you, you remember that last feeling as you walk away. And then you think, Oh, I love the color purple.

Sasheen Artis: Cause you remember that, that last feeling, right? Right. But it's a horrific story. I was traumatized when I read the book.

I read it as a teen. It's so bad. And I was like, Oh, my God. [00:45:00] I never want to experience this life. I never, never. But you

Julie Harris Oliver: forget because the feeling that's left with you is beautiful story of triumph. And you forget how horrific

Sasheen Artis: it is. Right. And I think, you know, there are so many stories like that that have yet to be told.

And not, you know, again, they had an opportunity to do it. They took it. They, you know, cast it beautifully. everyone did a great job. Yeah, but how many other stories are out there that have this have similar themes, but you don't have to remake anything. You don't have to go, you don't have to go back to, you know, the 80s.

You don't have to go back, you know, to history. You could do something present day. I just feel. That we're missing out on opportunity because we're too afraid to look at the, you know, the pile of scripts that are already on our desks that have already been optioned that are already, we're already there that have, [00:46:00] you know, that become that writer's calling card that has gotten them the jobs.

Well, let's use that script that they're holding saying, hey, this is a great script and people say, hey, yeah, that's a great script Go work on the show. No, let's go make this script and let's go make this one, you know And I think we're we're missing out on those opportunities for fear for for the fear of oh, what if it doesn't well?

Julie Harris Oliver: Because of the shareholders, because of the profit, because of the, everything has to be such a raging success because of the business.

Sasheen Artis: Right. But, and, and a business model that in any other company and any other industry would be insane. It's like, Oh. We have to spend 250 million dollars on one thing in order for it to make a billion thing, you know, billion dollars.

Yeah. It's like, who, who, that, that does, that, the math isn't mathing, that doesn't even make sense. It's like, why would you put all of your eggs in one basket? And then pray, cross your [00:47:00] fingers, and you know, market however you market to hopefully make a billion dollars as opposed to making ten, twenty five million dollar things.

Remember

Julie Harris Oliver: the twenty million dollar movies that were so beautiful and successful? Remember the early nineties? I mean, maybe people don't remember the early nineties,

Sasheen Artis: but I, well, I do. And you have these personal relationship driven, you know, great pictures that, you know, they, they won the awards, they made the money, but it, the, the business model.

I don't know if it's laziness, because if you have to make one thing at 250 million, that, that, that reduces the amount of time you have to spend. You know, yes, you're spending more money, but it's only one thing. But if you make 10 things at 25, then you have 10, you know, 10 things you gotta make. But it's like, that, that to me, it's insane.

And no other company, no other industry would just put, it's like Apple saying, Oh, we're only going to make the phone. It's like, really? [00:48:00] No, Apple's never going to make just a phone. They're going to make a whole bunch of things. And they're going to hope that, you know, you as a consumer finds one thing that you like, and you may find other things that you like, what you mean?

Julie Harris Oliver: We should diversify the product.

Sasheen Artis: Hello, diversify the product, diversify the stories, diversify the, the, the people who are making it, diversify your workforce.

Julie Harris Oliver: Hey, well, I'm going to put you in charge cause you're making the most sense.

Sasheen Artis: Well, you know, I'm sure I'm not the only person out there, I just, I feel like, at this point, no one wants to be that person, no one wants to say what they're thinking, because I can't be the only person, you know, it's just that.

You know, there's a lot of folks out there that fear losing their jobs, fear, you know, not getting the same fear, not getting promoted. And fear is fear kills things. Fear is a killer. You know, it's a killer.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, it's a whole industry of creatives. And I'd say the [00:49:00] percentage of them who are saying, well, I really got to make this come through with the shareholders.

It's, it's really

Sasheen Artis: small. They're not saying that at all, but what they are saying is we have to make it for the audience. We're, we're trying to make this story, you know, we want to tell this amazing story. We want to show this, you know, amazing experience. Or we want, you know, want people to have a great laugh or, you know, we want people to be scared and, you know, be frightened and have that fun experience.

I mean, I think people are making it for people. And I, and I think we as producers, we, as you know, executives have to reconnect the shareholders so that they understand too, they are audience. They are, we're making this for them, their audience. So,

Julie Harris Oliver: how do you keep going in the face, cause this work is hard, and you're doing it in the face of a consistently disappointing

Sasheen Artis: machine.

Yes, I, [00:50:00] yeah, I think, you know, I, I keep going, I keep going, and I keep going. I, actually I had a, I had the pleasure of watching two movies this past holiday, holiday, Nyad. well, it was on, it was on Netflix and then a million miles away on Amazon prime. Those two movies were like quintessential lessons in tenacity.

It's like. You keep going, you don't give up. Even when people tell you, no, you keep going and you just keep going and you keep going and you keep trying and you keep trying and it is, it's tiring, but you know, in your heart of hearts that the thing is going to work, you know, that you can do the thing, you know, that whatever, whatever the obstacle is, you're trying to overcome.

It is overcomable. You know, you just have to come at it in different ways until you get to that other side. So I, I, I have this. [00:51:00] You know, when one of the lines in the a million miles miles away was tenacity is a superpower. And if you can embrace that and you can hold on to that and you can just keep going and say, oh, okay, this isn't going to work.

Okay, let's try this. Let's make this happen. And, oh, that's not going to work. Okay, well then let's try this. Cause you know, it has, this has to happen. We know. The vision has to come to fruition. So I, you know, I just keep, I stay in prayer. I'm like, okay, Lord, I can go work at Costco any day now. Let me know, but until such time, I'm just going to keep going and I'm going to keep doing it.

Julie Harris Oliver: We hope so much. Well, I'll speak for myself. I hope so much that it's like that cartoon where the person is digging a hole underground. And the thing they're seeking is just right there and they don't know they're right here. And so

Sasheen Artis: they give up. Cause once,

Julie Harris Oliver: once the barrier breaks, it feels like [00:52:00] then it'll be super accelerated.

Sasheen Artis: And I think so. And I, and I, and I have to hold on to that as a belief and know that again, I'm not the only person out there. This isn't, you know. What I'm doing, you know, people do there, there are hundreds of thousands of producers all across the world and all these different countries making the thing.

And we know that when you give producers the opportunity to make the thing and you give them a deadline, it's going to happen, they're going to deliver. And so, yeah, we make the thing. And so I, I believe that. If you, you know, give me that opportunity. If we say, okay, Sasha, go ahead, make, you know, make your five projects in your accelerator.

You know, we're going to allow you to, train 200 producers. It's going to happen, you know, and not only are those 200 producers are going to get trained, but then they're going to go out and make 20 projects. And so you have exponential, you know, things happening and you have that shift [00:53:00] and it's a slow, you know, slow progress until it's not until it, you know, it's full speed ahead.

And, you know, I just keep going and knowing that it is going to happen.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, you've inspired me. Tell me what advice you have for people coming up.

Sasheen Artis: I think the biggest thing is don't be afraid. don't be a yes person just because you're afraid. be honest with people, be reliable. I think, you know, this industry, a lot, you know, a lot of people say, you know, when you're, when you're trying to get in, in whatever form or fashion, whether you're, you know, creative or not, you know.

You have to show up, you know, you have to be there. You have to actually, you know, if someone says, okay, I'm gonna give you a shot, take the shot. You know, don't, don't be like, oh, don't be [00:54:00] afraid to take that shot. I think a lot of folks. They get, you know, they get someone on the end of the phone and then they don't know what to say, you know, and it's like, you know, practice, strategize, practice and pick up the phone and say what you want to say.

Ask for the thing you want to ask for, you know, ask for that opportunity. Or, you know, if you, if you see an opportunity that is made for you, take that opportunity. don't be afraid because. There, there's no barrier in this industry that can't be overcome. And that, that's, that's a hard thing to, to, to say, you know, knowing all the barriers that are here, but they ha they can be overcome and you just have to figure out that way to overcome it and ask people, don't be afraid to ask for help.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is there anything I didn't ask you about that I should have asked you about?

Sasheen Artis: Oh my, [00:55:00] no, I think we covered everything. For me, it's, you know, Plenty of Pie. Oh, I have, a webinar series currently that I'm offering folks. I do on plentyofpi. net. It's called Demystify Entertainment. we're doing a, TV series development workshop as well as a fundraising for media projects workshop.

They are fee based. and you also receive a 15 minute online consultation with me. I answer questions. I give advice, whatever you need, you know, to, to help you navigate this industry.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wonderful. Okay. People can find you at p plenty of pie.net any place else. Yes. You want them.

Sasheen Artis: and you know, I'm on, I'm on LinkedIn.

I'm, I'm always wanting to connect to folks on LinkedIn and I'm on Instagram. just my name, nothing, nothing interesting. Just Sasheen Artis on Instagram. LinkedIn, and Plenty of Pie.net Okay. [00:56:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: It is always such a pleasure talking with you next time before six years go by.

Sasheen Artis: Thank you. Yes.

Yes. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Julie. I appreciate it.

Julie Harris Oliver: You've been listening to the other 50 percent a herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. Thank you to Sasheen Artis for sharing her story. And special thanks to Jay Rose, Dani Rosner, and Allison McQuaid for the music. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and rate and leave a review to help other people find it.

You can reach me at julieharrisoliver at gmail. com. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

Transcripts: If you'd like a transcript you don't see, please request via theotherfiftypercent@gmail.com

EP 235: GenXX

GenXX

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] Hi friends. You're listening to The Other 50%, a Herstory of Hollywood .I'm Julie Harris Oliver. For today, I got to speak with a group of female directors behind the initiative called GenXX. Maria Burton, Susan Dynner, Monique Sorgen, and Nandi Bowe. Maria and Monique have been on this podcast before, episodes 14 and 131 respectively, which you can still find on the website.

All of these women have banded together to create the Gen XX Initiative, which they're going to tell us all about. Now. You can find us at theotherfiftypercent.com, all spelled out in letters, as well as all the podcast places. You can find links to everything I'm up to on the link tree that is in the show notes and@julieharrisoliver.com here.

Have a listen. Okay? Welcome to the other 50%. I'm sitting with the founders of the Gen XX Initiative. Nandi Bowe, Maria Burton, Susan Dynner, and Monique Sorgen. Welcome everyone. Thank you. So, just to say, the Gen XX [00:01:00] initiative was created to promote the female directors of Generation X who have been enthusiastically pursuing your goals and building accolades for years as directors.

You started at the beginning of your careers facing sexism, and now it's butting right up against ageism. Between the four of you, you've directed numerous projects, won countless awards, participated in all the programs, including ABC Disney, CBS, Sony, Ryan Murphy's Half, Project Her, Sundance, Black Magic Collective, DGA's DDI, DGA's Learning Tree, and Film Independent.

You have premiered and or won festivals, including Sundance, South by Southwest, Cannes, AFI, et cetera. You've been doing all the things. And yet you're not at the studio level of career that you deserve to be, that you've earned, that you want to be. And so here comes this initiative, Gen XX. Let's talk about that.

What brought you together [00:02:00] to do this initiative? To start with Monique.

Monique Sorgen: Well, the initiative came to be so three of us had were having lunch. And we were kind of talking about our hopes and dreams as we want to do. And at one point, you know, we were sort of like, why are we doing all this stuff? Why have we done all this stuff?

And it hasn't happened for us. And I think that's a question a lot of people in this business. Ask themselves, but at that moment, I kind of realized and I was like you know, I think the sexism that I faced when I was younger led directly to the ageism that I'm facing today. And then Susan was like, Oh my God, that's so true.

We should start an organization. And Maria was like, and what if we call it Gen XX because of the double X chromosome? And so in that moment over a meal, we decided that we would do something proactive toward what we'd been facing all along [00:03:00] and, you know, Maria knew Nandi and loved her and introduced her to us.

And so we asked Nandi to be a part of our initiative and the rest is becoming history.

Maria Burton: That's right. We've actually, we're surprised to realize that was a year ago and in this year. The one positive thing about the strike for us was that all the studio executives had time to take meetings with people who were not talking.

We're not pitching because of course that was not allowed, but we were able to talk about Gen X, X. And an interesting thing is many of the studios have programs for television directing to, to try and increase the numbers for underrepresented directors. But not in feature films and in feature films, women are still 1.

5 directors to 10 male directors. So there's a big room for improvement and people were very receptive. So it was a [00:04:00] good use of the strike time.

Susan Dynner: And we also realized between the four of us. We each knew 50 other women who were uniquely talented, capable directors who also weren't getting that shot. So we thought there was a niche that needed to be filled and who better to do it than us.

So we got very actively involved and we're excited about this and we hope that it makes a difference.

Julie Harris Oliver: Exactly, Susan. And it's funny cause We do feel, well, I've seen some doors are being opened for younger women, right, or the women coming up and doors are being open for people of all kinds to get into this business, but there's a, Hey, wait a minute.

We're not done yet. Like, don't count us out. Just because we're opening doors for the next generation. It doesn't always have to be the brand new shiny person getting the Opportunity. I mean you are all bright and shiny people getting offered

Maria Burton: and I think one thing about the whole movement to bring in all voices and have all voices represented is the importance of [00:05:00] storytelling from Different points of view and one of those points of view would be people with more experience of life You know that so you don't want just a certain age group You want people along the whole spectrum of age as well as all races and all genders.

Julie Harris Oliver: Nandi we haven't heard from you what did you think when they came to you

with this idea?

Nandi Bowe: One of the things I love is that these are women who I admire These are our women. We are women who have done lots of work. We constantly sort of. Inspire each other because of all the things we've done.

And so I love the idea of a group of women who are not looking for, you know, we're happy to shadow, but we don't need to shadow in order to be ready to do the work. We're ready to do the work.

And that's what I love.

Julie Harris Oliver: Speaking of shadowing, should we talk about the programs a bit? Have all of you done programs?

And how were they in terms of success and getting you jobs out

of Nandi?

Nandi Bowe: When I did Disney, we weren't even guaranteed an [00:06:00] episode. I think now programs are starting to realize that they really need to guarantee episodes. But when I did my Disney program, we weren't guaranteed an episode. So while it was wonderful opportunity it, it just didn't lead to the opportunities that we hope.

Julie Harris Oliver: As I feel like that's changing across the board, I know Karen Horne makes a big effort to do that.

Susan Dynner: Well, I'll just say, in my experience. Okay, Susan. I've done several programs. When we did the Sony, for example. They had 15 fellows and out of the 15 of us, only five were chosen to shadow because of their budget.

And a lot of it is down to the fact that they're just the, even the DEI execs are not supported in a way that they should be. I don't know that if it's just optics or if they really want to put their money where their mouth is, I know that the DEI execs really do. So I think it's a problem of prioritizing what they really want or need for their networks or studios.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, we can do a whole podcast on what's happening with DEI execs across the industry, but [00:07:00] Another time maria, go ahead.

Maria Burton: I've also done many programs i've done. Sony abc disney cbs ryan murphy And they've all been really great experiences, but I did them all just in the abc disney ended in 2020 And right after that is when they started guaranteeing episodes because I was an example of someone who i'd get teed up for a show I'd spend months shadowing Mostly on my own dime.

I mean, you know, some of them have a small stipend, but they don't even cover if you're, for example, going up to Vancouver to shadow and I looked at it as my grad school to be investing in this opportunity. And then the shows would either go away that pandemic hit. The strike, you know, it's really important that they are now guaranteeing so that people aren't already underrepresented and then jump through extra hoops and then still don't get the opportunity.

So I'm very happy that [00:08:00] the programs now are doing that.

Monique Sorgen: One of the big things that the DGA got in the new contract was that these programs are now required to guarantee an episode. And so that's a great thing because it's going to move the needle, but it's also means that they're going to be able to accept many fewer people each year in the program.

So it's a give and take, because less people are going to have opportunity to do the programs and learn the stuff that we learned in those programs, but more people who get the, all the people who get the programs will, if all goes well. Direct their first episode, and those will all be diverse people.

Susan, jump in there.

Susan Dynner: And can I just add, there aren't really many programs that exist at the studio level like they do at the network level. So that's why we feel like we want to get our fellows or members of the initiative opportunities to direct features, hopefully at the studio level.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, so it seems like all the programs are aimed at [00:09:00] television.

And yet the numbers in films are terrible.

So what do we do

for that piece?

Maria Burton: I think it was easier to address television first because most of the programs, certainly when these, when the studio programs were started, the series would have 2022 episodes so they could. Look at the numbers and say, we have room to put in some new people.

Now, even that has changed so much because now they're limited series with fewer episodes, often even directed by only one or two directors. That model is changing. So we're lucky that these programs existed while there was a bit of a opening and with features, it's so much more difficult to insist.

Like, Oh, you have to put one person into an episode because the feature is the whole, the one director for the single feature. So I think that studios are having a difficult time [00:10:00] figuring out how that would work. And that's one reason that it's been nice to go in and talk with them about this and pitch our ideas.

Monique Sorgen: The other thing in TV that helps the studios feel assured is that the crew doesn't change from episode to episode. So, if a director comes in, you know, and they don't live up to the expectation, which happens, by the way, very rarely, but if that happens, The DP knows the show, the production designer is still going to get the production right.

The script supervisor is going to still be on top of it and the actors know their roles. So there's, you know, there's more of a safety net there. And that's why when they have tried to do like what is considered their feature department programs, they've ended up doing a series of shorts instead. But, you know, at the same time to take more to answer your question, like someone like Maria has directed six independent features already.

So if you talk about mitigating risk, you know, she has definitely [00:11:00] proven that, you know, and even when it comes to making the jump from shorts to features, like I have four different award winning projects. You know, each with multiple awards. So again, like while I haven't done a feature, I've done a web series, which is a lengthier than a short, and I've done several shorts and all of them are award winning.

So again, it's like that there are ways to mitigate the risk by just looking at that. And frankly, when it comes to men, they have always been willing to make that. Leap or we wouldn't have any directors at all.

Julie Harris Oliver: So amazing. Like if the attitude is in, well, you do web series. Oh, you do shorts, but it feels like the I have like 10 questions in my head at the same time right now.

One is

for this initiative, apart from

sharing awareness and Hey, do you know, you're leaving out this big chunk of talent when you're hiring? What else do you hope we do achieve with the initiative, Susan?

Susan Dynner: Our [00:12:00] goals are definitely mainly to first and foremost, to bring awareness that there are these talented women that are overqualified and ready to work, that have been doing it for years and that they should be hired.

And the age is not a barrier. If you look at, I think Monique brought it up earlier today, like they did the birthdays in the Hollywood Reporter of some of the directors and they were like age 75, 80, wait a minute, we're still young and vibrant. Well, how old is he? He's shooting right now. Exactly. All of them, you know, not going to name names.

Maria Burton: It's great for us because it means that we still have a very long runway ahead of us.

Susan Dynner: We've got like 40, 50 years. So we have plenty of experience and plenty of time ahead in our careers. But we want to also bring opportunities to women to direct. So one of our goals is to, you know, get a fund to direct feature films.

and or anthologies series, whatever we can do. We just want to be directing and we just want to showcase the work that all [00:13:00] these amazingly talented female directors who are of the Gen X age are able to do.

Monique Sorgen: And another thing we want to do is we want to create, we're going to create a Gen XX stamp, which we will put on projects that are directed by Gen X women starting with this year.

And that will also help raise awareness of the amazing work that Gen X women are already doing. And so the more Gen X stamps, Gen XX stamps that we get out there. You know, the more people will be able to say like, Oh, why isn't this person directing a feature? Why isn't this person directing television at the studio level?

So that's something else that is on our mission. And then there's also a whole component of giving back, which is, you know, we want to use these projects to hire gen X women. Keys below the line, and we also plan to [00:14:00] mentor the next generation of women in shadowing opportunities and lower level positions and really kind of pass on our expertise that we've gained over all these years to them.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, good. Thank you for answering the question. What about everybody else?

Susan Dynner: One more thing is we do also create a database of women who are Gen X directors where we can showcase their bios, but also what they are working on currently. So that if somebody is looking for, oh, we are looking for a thriller with this kind of lead who is directed by a Gen X woman, they can just look through the database and hopefully we'll become the go to database where we can help get people hired.

Excellent. And Nandi and Maria are trying to get in.

Nandi Bowe: I wanted to say that. We also are looking forward to the different stories that are going to be told when a different point of view is out there, not only in my African American, I'm also to say, and so to have stories about women who are [00:15:00] mature women and who have other challenges and who look different than whatever the status quo is, that's a huge, that's a huge opportunity, both for audiences

and also.

Julie Harris Oliver: And how much more interesting than another superhero movie?

Maria Burton: Right and relatable and another thing is we have a fiscal sponsorship through film independent. So Our motto is telling stories by women about women for everyone and There will be many stories under that umbrella And ultimately people can run financing.

If people are wanting to give money or the mission, instead of like through a LLC investment, they can run that through our gen XX fiscal fund.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, wonderful. And so then is the hope we might produce some more independent work that then showcases the talent that can then translate into studio work?

Cause [00:16:00] that's the bridge, right? How do we. How do we address that piece of it?

Monique Sorgen: Well, as we may have mentioned before, we've already taken a bunch of meetings at the studios with the DEI executives. And, you know, we've taken meetings with Film Independent, obviously, since they're our fiscal sponsor.

But our goal is to continue taking meetings with people, with agents, with producers, with showrunners and executives at all levels, and even beyond the DEI level. Just to continue to create awareness about the fact that these Gen X women directors exist, that we've been here all along, that we have the experience and we're ready to go, and that there are just a lot of us.

Maria Burton: And the way that Ava DuVernay was so successful with hiring directors onto Queen Sugar and showing that all you have to do is give the opportunity and these directors were fantastic and now they've all gone on to have great careers. It's the same idea. [00:17:00] Give people that opportunity to show their talents and then other people will continue to hire them.

Julie Harris Oliver: I know I err on the side of being a bit of a radical. I just want to say to all of the studio, just hire people.

Susan Dynner: We actually have some great statistics on, in our deck, which is available through our website, which is www. genxx. info. So you can come see some of those statistics for yourself. And it's pretty eyeopening, you know, in this day and age it's kind of still unbelievable.

Julie Harris Oliver: Just do it. Just do it. Tell me how you have kept your enthusiasm and your hopes and dreams and your energy around this work when I imagine, I believe it has been so hard. Monique.

Monique Sorgen: Well, I've tried quitting a million times. I mean, I've kept lists of other jobs I might be able to do, but none of them ever kind of sparked joy in me.

One time I even moved to Paris.[00:18:00] Because I thought to myself, Paris is beautiful. I love it here. I speak, I'm half French, so I can work in France. And I basically was there thinking like, Oh, maybe if I leave show business and I'll just get another job and I'll be happy because. I'll just be in this beautiful place.

Right. Within one week of being there, I was going to movie premieres and everyone I was meeting was in show business in Paris. And I kind of realized, Oh my God, this is who I am. This is what I do. So I ended up coming back to LA with the understanding that like, it's really about the journey.

You know, I love what I do. It makes me happy every day when I'm doing it. Not so much when I'm looking for work, doing it. But when I'm actually doing it, it just gives me so much joy. And I kind of realized that like giving up wasn't even an option. And once I had that realization, there was kind of, for me, there was kind of an acceptance of like, this is what I've signed up for.

Susan Dynner: Yeah, for me it's never even been an option to do [00:19:00] anything else. This is in my bones. It's what I love. I, it brings me joy, like much like Monique. I also produce, so I'll produce other filmmakers work that I don't direct. So I found a way to be in it no matter what, but I just, I have to do it.

There's no other alternative. And I feel like everybody can do it no matter what, whether it's a hobby or whether you do make it a career, you can always find a way of making money on the side or doing something to support yourself. But if it's really, truly a passion, you'll figure out a way to keep doing it.

Nandi Bowe: I came out of assistant directing. And so I've been on sets from the age of 20. I've watched some of the best directors in the world direct and I've helped them bring their vision to light. I am a writer as well. And so that's one of the ways that I've managed to sort of keep myself inspired during the times when I'm not directing.

Is that I write my own projects because, you know, especially as an African American woman, I've known [00:20:00] that the projects I want to see in the world aren't necessarily being written. So I've taken on writing as well as a way to create projects.

Maria Burton: Wonderful, and I feel very lucky to have a company also with my sisters our five sisters productions company because we are able to Continue to generate a lot of work.

We have a series called half the history sort of like your other 50 But it's about the stories of women that have been untold in history and The features that i'm passionate about telling are also stories of women that have been Not yet told and so I think between Being able to work as a producer and writer on the projects with my sisters and then do my own directing Whether it's something with five sisters productions or as a director for hire.

I'm Excited to always keep going and telling those stories

Monique Sorgen: [00:21:00] And I think Maria brings up an interesting point because like, we're not here because we chose to do this as a job. We're here because we're storytellers, because we have a voice that needs to be heard and stories that we wanna tell, and a point of view that we feel is not getting out into the world.

And a lot of people in this business are here for that reason. And so when you kind of go back to the root of your passion, like what is it I'm really trying to say with my projects? You know, like I have personally a lot of stories about being a single woman. That's really important to me because I feel like there's not enough acceptance of women just choosing not to get married or choosing not to have families.

And that's an important story that I've probably written four different ways, you know, and that's just one thing that I have to say, but that's something that's, you know, and I think we all kind of have that thing or those. Those categories of things where we're like, why won't people accept a woman [00:22:00] who does this or a person who does this?

Cause it doesn't necessarily always have to be about a woman. Sometimes there, you know, are people of all kinds. That we're just saying to ourselves, like, why isn't this person accepted? I want this person to be accepted. I want this person to be heard and understood. And I want this story to exist. And so that's kind of the driving force.

Why I think most of us continue to do what we do, despite all the heartache and all the challenge involved.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, we know how powerful it is and how quickly it can change culture. With film television, right? It's so, it's so important.

Susan Dynner: I mean, I, yeah, personally, like I've been a band photographer from the age of 15.

So I have stories to tell galore. Being on the red bands and stuff. And I'm also a magician and I'm doing a documentary right now about women in magic. So I feel like we all bring unique perspectives and unique life experiences. That, that would be amazing stories to tell. So [00:23:00] that's what we're trying to do here.

Julie Harris Oliver: I know the advice for so long has been

create your own work and do it that way. Is that still your advice?

Nandi Bowe: It's so important as a storyteller and as a filmmaker that you you're moved by the stories you want to tell. Because Who From beginning to end, it's a long road. And so I definitely feel like you have to, you just have to be moved by the story you're telling, whether it's your story or someone else's, it has to be a story that gets you up on the hard days and on something that matters.

Maria Burton: I, I agree with creating your own work, but I think this is a huge thing that we are trying to push with Gen X is to the whole reason to be allowed to work on the studio level is to have access to bigger budgets. And to tell stories on a bigger level or just tell bigger stories because sometimes I underrepresented directors have been ghettoized into a smaller [00:24:00] scale that can Translate into having to tell smaller stories and those are not the only stories we have to tell So this is a big reason behind our push

Monique Sorgen: And yes, you do have to create your own work when you're starting out because you have to prove to people that you know what you're doing.

But where GenXX comes in is that we have created our own work over and over again. And so what we're saying is we've proven to you that we know what we're doing now. Give us a budget so that we can do something that really has a bigger impact because it has a bigger audience.

Maria Burton: I think something that's interesting about the bigger budget too, is there's a myth that, Oh, if you've only worked on a smaller scale, it will be hard to jump to a larger budget when in reality it's so much easier when you have.

The tools and the experience crew and [00:25:00] plenty of crew instead of people doing multiple jobs. And so it's having that opportunity as well.

Monique Sorgen: And not being in charge of everything. Like to me, the dream is to get to direct a project where the only job I had to do was to direct. I mean, on my projects I have had to produce, I have been the writer, I have been the production designer and in post production I'm the head PA.

Julie Harris Oliver: So bring in the donuts, right? So seeing what's been going on with the business this year, all the strikes, the

shutdowns, the mergers, the, it feels to

me, and I would love, I'd love to hear what you think about it. It feels like the business itself is undergoing a revolution and the business model feels a little broken and needs to be remade.

Do you have any thoughts

about the whole business model of it all, Nandi?

Nandi Bowe: We forget how young the film business and [00:26:00] television is in general. And so I think we sort of revolutions and evolutions make it possible for new openings. And so that's what I'm banking on is the fact that as the industry evolves, there'll be new opportunities and new openings.

Certainly the internet has provided that for us. I just have to keep imagining that there's going to be new openings as the industry progresses.

Susan Dynner: Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, when I first started in this industry, creatives ran studios, it's hard to think of that now, right? Cause it's such, such a business model and investor and all this other, I think the studios were far more successful back then than they are now.

And it was being run by creatives who actually cared about the product that they were putting out, which happened to be a film, but we want to kind of disrupt that. That's why we started gen XX. We want to do something different. We're trying to think of new creative ways to finance films at a studio level where it doesn't have to be just all about the business.

It can be about. Also being passionate about what you're making or having a message [00:27:00] that you want to, you know, get out there to the masses. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think it, what does success look like is being changed or has changed. So it feels like it needs to shift away from wall street and shift back to. art.

Susan Dynner: I mean, if you think about it, the movies that were winning Oscars back 20, 20, 30 years ago, we're all studio films. And now in the past 10 years, none of them are studio films are all indie films. So it's something's got to give.

Monique Sorgen: Yeah. So there's a couple things that play obviously with the shift. One is that the studios went from being private to being public.

So now they're valuated based on their potential rather than being evaluated based on how much money they're actually making. Whereas during the time that Susan was talking about when creatives were running the studios. You know, the studios were private and they were just concerned about how many hundreds of millions of dollars or billions of dollars they made that year.

How much were they in the black? And the numbers were astronomical [00:28:00] now that, you know, now that's not how they're evaluated anymore. They're evaluated on like how much growth they've had. And this is not necessarily a growth business. This is. A profitable business. So I think that's problem number one.

The second problem is technology and the technological changes to the industry have come in two ways. The first is the streaming revolution where everything has gone on to streaming faster than they were able to figure out how to monetize streaming. So that's also caused them to be less profitable.

And the second technological issue that we're facing up against now is AI. And the fact that if the studios have their way, they will be making projects entirely with computer engineers and leave the creatives out of the process at all. Now that's a possible negative, but how I see it is that's where the opening is, that people are probably, some [00:29:00] people will want to watch AI made movies.

But there's going to be a whole side industry that will crop up with going back to the old, the older model where studios are private and they're just making a profit. They're just in the black every year. And they're making movies about humans with humans, about the human experience, because fundamentally the reason.

That we appreciate art as humans is because it reflects our life and our society back to us. And AI is going to have a harder time doing that than humans. And yeah, so basically I think there's going to be a second branch of the industry that's going to start to crop up and the way I see it is going to be like with groups like us creating New material using creative ways to find finances and new avenues for that, but also with like the smaller companies like a two, four and neon, these companies, they're going to kind of lead the [00:30:00] way to be that branch.

And there will be now two branches, right? The branch of studios making AI driven projects, and then the branch of humans making human driven projects. And so I do have hope for where we're going. It's just a matter of finding the money that wants to invest in that. And that's the kind of thing we want to do.

Susan Dynner: I just wanted to say that ironically, you know, AI is never going to be a substitute for humans because we are the creators. We are coming up with all these new and revolutionary ideas, thoughts, and concepts. Ironically AI can do the algorithms that the studio heads do. So I don't know who should be watching out here more, us or them?

Cause they can't do their job without us. That's so funny. Who should be more worried?

Julie Harris Oliver: What do you hope your legacy will be as a group and

individually?

Nandi Bowe: I would love just for us to be another opening for experienced directors.[00:31:00] To have opportunities to tell stories that aren't being told and to support each other in that.

Maria Burton: It's interesting to think about because my mother worked very hard as a feminist in the 70s and pushed open doors for people not least of which were her five daughters. And she felt that the world would be different for us and we believed that when we were kids and I hope that The world is different for my nieces.

I think we saw a Statistic recently that was things wouldn't change wait monique. I think you had the statistic Can you jump in there with it? It was

Monique Sorgen: Yeah, it was just put out by Women in Film, I believe, that if we continue to progress by 25 percent every five years, women directors will reach parity in 2072.

But history has shown us that we don't incrementally progress. [00:32:00] By 25 percent or even 5 percent or even forward without also going backward, like, you know, progress goes up and it goes down and it goes up and it goes down. And so the fact of the matter is, we're not going to get there by the time any of us or any of our grandchildren die.

The only way to really progress. Is to just do it the way what made a change was Ava DuVernay saying, I'm just going to hire women moved the needle. That's how you make progress. You just have to decide to do it and do it right now. And we could be at parody next year. If we just did that.

Susan Dynner: And that's one of the goals that we strive for.

I mean, we'd love it if in the next 10 years, we are obsolete because all Gen X women are actively directing films and TV, you know, that's a dream. In terms of legacy, that would be amazing.

Monique Sorgen: Yeah. And in terms of legacy for me, I will say probably why Maria and I get along is my father was also a civil rights lawyer.

[00:33:00] And so he really moved the needle through the legal system on a lot of really important issues. And so I have a high bar to reach with my filmmaking. And I know that's one of the reasons I went into filmmaking. So as a filmmaker, I really hope that my films Change the way women are perceived in the world and open up the possibilities for who they can be and what they can do with their lives.

As Gen XX I also hope that our legacy will be to move the needle greatly for all women who want to be directors and who want to be anything they want to be in this business. And we're going to do whatever we can to move the needle as far as we can, as long as we have this organization. And

Maria Burton: i'll jump in Also on the projects that we do.

I know for me We're talking about this organization opening up the opportunity for women And on the projects I make I feel it's so [00:34:00] important to change the culture for all people like people You know what we the movies and television that we make both reflects and creates our culture going forward And so I have four nieces and four nephews and I want them to value all people equally and grow up seeing that and then if it's modeled to them, then they will perpetuate that and It's so such a strong thing that we can do with what we create.

So I want to create that myself. I want to give other people the opportunity to create that and then affect people who are not in this business, just the world in general.

Monique Sorgen: And one more thing in regards to gen XX, you know, we're talking about generation X directors. Who are meeting the intersection of sexism and ageism and one thing that we're doing for future generations that maybe they aren't thinking about or don't want to think about.

Is we're confronting [00:35:00] ageism, and that's something that every single filmmaker of every gender and every race and every ability is going to come up against at some point if they make it that far. Right, so we're really confronting something that everyone's going to have to face if they're very lucky.

The alternative is not better. Exactly.

Susan Dynner: And really quickly, just to speak to that, although we are specifically focused on Generation X. We hope that older women also get the same opportunities. I mean, we want to try and hire as many women directors as possible. So although we in particular are focused on Gen X women we hope that all women of all ages get direct jobs.

Julie Harris Oliver: I want to say thank you for your service to the business and the culture. I also want to point out, I know that you all came onto this recording today, like from continuing education with the Alliance of Women Directors. Like you are [00:36:00] still

in it,

training, working, learning. The constant work that I know you all do.

I don't know if it's unique to women in this business, in this organization, but the dedication to the continued networking and learning and growth. I think is just another thing that sets you apart and makes you that much more qualified.

Susan Dynner: I think you have to. I mean, I always learn in just life. I learn things all the time.

So why not in film technology is ever evolving. We have new tools at our disposal. There's now virtual production. There's, you know, all kinds of new things that are coming up and we need to be ready and know how to utilize that. And

Maria Burton: also shout out to Marnie cage. All Evans is the one who's teaching this morning.

Rachel Ramis teaches for free all the time. I think we are such a community of sharing and trying to pull each other up. And [00:37:00] that's a wonderful thing that has happened in the community of women. Filmmakers. And

Julie Harris Oliver: there was something you said earlier, Maria, about the two steps forward, one step back. Cause it felt like we made a lot of progress and then 2020 happened and then recovering from 2020 and then the strikes happened.

And I think we all have to try to push through and keep the momentum going and not just let the industry revert back to, Oh, now we're just going to hire all the people we know again until we get this going. It's not the right time for all this diversity business. I think we really have to push to continue the momentum and keep it all going.

Maria Burton: Thank

you. Well said.

Julie Harris Oliver: I would love to hear just what each of you either are working on or just recently worked on or want to promote, want us to go see, want us to look up. I'd love to hear from each of you. I'm going to go around the,

around the horn here. So Monique.

Monique Sorgen: All right. So what am I working on? Well, I spent a lot of time working on the GenXX initiative recently.

Good [00:38:00] job. Good job. I also have a short film that just finished the festival circuit. And another short film that's currently on the festival circuit and a web series that I have just released called codependent socks, which you can find on a website called cold open. com cold with a K and so that. Is a family, a traditional family sitcom starring sock puppets.

And it's a seven part web series. It takes about 26 minutes to watch the whole thing. And the great thing about the platform cold open is it's basically aggregating web series with the purpose of exposing them to executives and agents. To get them picked up for ongoing series. So you may notice what I did there is I made a 26 minute show and then made it a web series that serialized with seven episodes to show that it can work [00:39:00] both as a web series.

And as a pilot for an ongoing sitcom that could be made either continuing with stock puppets or could also be made live action with what puppeteers would call fleshies. So those are some of the things that I have done recently. And and aside from that, I am looking for financing for a feature film.

Julie Harris Oliver: Can you tell us the titles of the shorts?

Monique Sorgen: So the short that just finished was called random check and that was actually a dramatic short I normally do comedy but I was hired to do that one and it's about a woman who wears a hijab who is stopped for A quote unquote random check at the San Diego Airport on her way to Comic Con And it really just shows how she's just an average woman trying to get to Comic Con But she's still being treated differently because of her hijab and her religion and the way she looks in the country.

She's from the one that's currently on the festival circuit is called lying [00:40:00] is complicated and it's about it's actually, that one's actually a proof of concept for my feature film, bad BFF. So I will tell you first what bad BFF is about. Bad BFF is about a woman who pretends she's getting married in order to get her best friend.

To hang out with her as the maid of honor. So it's a story about female friendship and how women can get left behind when their friends go off. To start families and do the whole marriage thing. So again, as I said earlier, really focused on, you know, being a single woman, and validating that lifestyle choice.

So the short film is a proof of concept taken from that, which is basically about a, about the same woman trying to convince her fake fiance to go to dinner with her to keep up the ruse.

Maria Burton: And I would just like to co sign that I have read that script and it is, laugh out loud, hilarious.

Monique Sorgen: Thank you, Maria.

I love you. And I did not pay [00:41:00] her for that, although I would.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, maria,

what do you have to go?

Maria Burton: So I have been spending much of the last few years shadowing on different television shows through the studio programs, working to get my episodic break But then this summer, when we were in this prolonged couple strikes, I decided I'd need to go back to doing some of my independent features because ironically, that's something I have a little more control over.

aNd I was invited to the NASA launch in earlier this spring of one of the commanders or the commander of this launch up to the international space station is a fan of the project and invited me down. And the launch kept getting pushed. And so I spent a lot of time at NASA with different astronauts and they were all saying, you've got to make this movie now because we're going to have a woman on the moon in 2025.

And the mercury 13 is the story of the women who were tested to be [00:42:00] astronauts in the early sixties. It's the same time as hidden figures, but it's like the women who were the right stuff at that time. And the script has won a lot of awards. It's been optioned a number of times, but it's been a little bit on the back burner while I've been focusing on episodic.

So that has come back to the front burner and I am making progress on that and very excited.

Julie Harris Oliver: Exciting. Okay. Susan.

Susan Dynner: Oh, I've been very busy besides obviously gen X, X, I have several projects. I was Casting one right before the pandemic called Fall of Eden, which is a story that follows three women whose lives unexpectedly intertwine.

One is a 15 year old from South Central whose crush turns into a nightmare. One is a 19 year old runaway punk rock girl living in the streets of Hollywood who's reunited with the lost love. And one is a 29 year old law student who has discovered that the law is not just. So that was starring Dylan McDermott and Brianna Hildebrand and I get, I'm excited to get back into casting that now that the strike is over.

I just wrapped shooting [00:43:00] on a proof of concept for a feature called The Soul Trader, which stars Shane West and Donna Mills and Shawna Grace, and we're very excited about that. The writer just finished the feature version of the script, so we're going to be going out with that shortly and doing the festival circuit.

Also I am currently shooting a documentary about women in magic, as I mentioned. I'm a magician member of the Magic Castle, so this is my community and my other passion. And I'm really excited about it for everyone to meet these extraordinary women and men who support them. And with that, I should also mention which NXX, we really appreciate like all of our male allies and younger allies, I mean, it takes a village.

And we should mention, it's not just us doing this alone. We have an amazing advisory board that's there to help us. We. Met with countless people who have been supportive and generous with their time and energy. So, That's also something that we should definitely mention. But yeah,

Julie Harris Oliver: I love it.

Nandi. What are

you up to?[00:44:00]

Nandi Bowe: I am developing a series based on my real life When I moved myself and three kids with my husband to india Soon after my diagnosis of ms He was offered a job opportunity and I felt like I just didn't know what else to do during that time. I wrote a book, and I'm developing a series that stars Tiffany

Haddish based on that story.

Julie Harris Oliver: What's the book called?

Nandi Bowe: Well, the book is called Hollywood to Bollywood, but I think I'm changing the name, and the

series will be called Nandi.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is the book out? Can we read it?

Nandi Bowe: No,

I'm going through the editing process now. I didn't know how to write a book when I wrote it. And I, in fact, I sort of paid one of my kids to, to read through, well, to, to count words in books to find out how many words a book was a book.

So, I have more words than I need, and so I'm in the editing process right now.

Julie Harris Oliver: What is some [00:45:00] advice that you would leave us with for women coming up in the business? Nandi, can, we start

with you.

Nandi Bowe: I guess it would be the same advice that I give myself on a regular basis, which is just to follow your heart and keep pushing and find allies.

I mean, that's what GenXX is a group of allies and just found find allies in the business. Find ways to keep yourself inspired and to continue telling the stories that move you regardless.

Susan Dynner: Yeah, I agree with that. I think there's so many resources out there now that we didn't even have coming up.

You've got Sundance Collab. You've got Film Independent. You've got all these great Alliance of Women Directors, Film Fatales. All these amazing organizations that, you know, you can find your tribe, find the people that you want to work with. I love working with these three women here. I mean, they're all amazingly talented, as you can see.

I'm so glad that we, you know, we're working on this project [00:46:00] together. And also just do it. You know, you can figure out ways to just do it these days. You can take out your phone and just film. It doesn't have to be professional, just to practice and learn your craft. Great. Maria.

Maria Burton: They've said very much what I would say but just the thing about just keep filming you always develop even if You are making mistakes.

It's good to make mistakes on things that are not You know the professional thing and that's something that you can learn by doing shoots on your cell phone But that also can be a wonderful project and then you have things for your reel and those things lead to work they lead to connections that You, this is a long career and you never know how the connections that you build early on will pay off later.

Like I think Nandi is working with people she went to film school with and it all comes around. So just keep working.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's so true. It's such a small town. [00:47:00] Monique.

Monique Sorgen: So I'm the joyful cynic of the group. And I just want to say, make sure you know why you're doing this. If you're doing it for the money, you're going to be gravely disappointed.

You should quit now. This is not great. Gold rush. You know, you have to do it for the love and for the passion. And because there is literally nothing else you can think of doing. Almost every other job out there is easier than this one. So you really have to be honest with yourself about that. But if you do find this is the only thing that you're happy doing.

You know, congratulations, you found your calling, you know, and then at that point, I would go to the advice that everyone else gave, just like, find your tribe, stick with it. And remember to look at what's fun about this business. Cause there are so many fun things that we get to do [00:48:00] that nobody else gets to do.

Like, you know, you don't necessarily get rich doing this, but you do get a lot of opportunities to go to free screenings and Meet people that no one else got to meet and hear from the pros and connect with the pros. And sometimes you even get to work with the pros. So, you know, there's a lot of fun to be had, but first make sure you're here for the right reasons and that you're not wasting your time.

And also, by the way, one other thing, a lot of people start out wanting to direct and in the process fall in love with something else. Let yourself fall in love with acting if that's who you are. Let yourself fall in love with production design. Let yourself fall in love with makeup if you find out that you actually like that more.

I mean, there are so many jobs to be done here and a lot of people really learned along their path where they actually belonged.

Julie Harris Oliver: Really good advice. And could you say where to find GenXX again?

Susan Dynner: You can find it online at [00:49:00] GenXX. info. And

Monique Sorgen: at the bottom of the page there, you can sign up to be on our mailing list and you'll be kept, you know, abreast of anything we're doing, whether we're doing talks or panels.

We're going to have a launch party. We have not officially launched yet, so we're going to have a launch party. You'll be invited to that. You know, sign up at the bottom of the page and we'll keep you. informed about whatever is going on when we're going to be rolling out our next, you know, fellowship opportunity and all of that.

All right. All right.

Julie Harris Oliver: I can't wait to see what you all do. I want to thank you all for doing this. Nandi Bowe, Maria Burton, Susan Dynner, Monique Sorgen. Thank you.

Maria Burton: Thank you.

Susan Dynner: Thank you.

Julie Harris Oliver: You've been listening to The Other 50 percent A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. Thank you to Maria Burton, Susan Dynner, Monique Sorgen, and Nandi Bowe for the conversation and for telling us all about Gen XX.

You can find them at GenXX. info. And [00:50:00] special thanks to Jay Rowe, Dani Rosner, and Alison McQuaid for the music. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and rate and leave a review to help other people find it. You can reach me at julieharrisoliver at gmail. com. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

EP 234: Emily Best

Introduction and Update on Julie's Accident

[0:00] Hi friends, you're listening to The Other 50%, a herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You may have noticed I took a little bit of a break over the summer.

The truth is I had a bit of an accident and I broke my wrist and I had to have surgery and I need those particular parts of me to put this podcast together.

And to be honest, the whole thing just took me out for a bit but not to worry, I'm fine, I'm recovering. Sometimes we just need a season to rest and recuperate.

The only thing I regret is that I did this interview back in June, and now I've taken a long time to get it out. But here we are. I'd like to think it's worth the wait, and I also think it's pretty evergreen.

I caught up with Emily Best, the founder and CEO of Seed&Spark, the online crowdfunding platform for creators, and also FilmForward, which is an experiential learning platform designed to activate the full potential of today's dynamic and diverse workforce by replacing boring corporate training videos with a cinematic learning experience built around award-winning short films from around the world. I've seen this program, it is so cool, and she's going to tell us about it.

[1:03] One of the things I love about this business, and I guess about life, is getting to see how people's careers develop and how they grow and evolve. I interviewed Emily a few years ago about Seed&Spark and her origin story and all things crowdfunding on Catch a Break Season 2, Episode 203, so be sure to go and listen to that, and it is linked in the show notes.

But today, I initially reached out to Emily to talk about her newer venture, Film Forward, and the important work she's doing there.

Our conversation expanded to include her thoughts about managing a company with a dispersed and remote workforce and how COVID changed everything, about really intentionally creating culture in a company in those circumstances, how humbling it is to do this work authentically, and trying to shift the American culture to prioritize human dignity above individual achievement.

Emily continues to be an incredibly thoughtful visionary, and I was inspired by this conversation.

You can find the podcast at theotherfiftypercent.com, all spelled out in letters, as well as in all the podcast places, and or you can find the links to everything I'm up to on the link tree that is in the show notes.

Okay, here's my conversation with Emily Best. Here, have a listen.

Introduction and Overview of Seed&Spark

[2:16] I'm here with Emily Best. Welcome to The Other 50%. Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so excited to catch up with you. And I'm not going to have you go through your whole origin story and the whole origin story of Seed&Spark because I talked to you for a really long time on the Catch a Break podcast, episode 203. So I encourage everyone to go listen to that, to get up to speed, and then come back and get the update. So, gosh, there's so many things I want to talk to you about and why don't we just do a quick update on where Seed&Spark is right now, because that's the film crowdfunding platform. And I saw something recently where you've eliminated the fees and everything. So why don't you talk about Seed&Spark and tell us where it is?

Well, we launched Seed&Spark back in 2012. And back then the market was dominated by the two major players, Kickstarter and Indiegogo, and they've set the rate and set the fees and set how things were done. And we updated a little bit by making it possible for pledgers on Seed&Spark to cover the site fee on behalf of the creators. And that meant that the creators were paying less in site fees and keeping more of their cash. But the more that we looked at the landscape.

[3:25] The biggest player in crowdfunding now is really GoFundMe. That's the one that's because it has replaced the American healthcare system, but that is a tragedy for another podcast.

Right. It's a whole other story.

But now, pretty much everyone has, you know, back when we started Kickstarter and Indiegogo were still like kind of cool, newfangled, not super well known, like, you know, your creator friends knew what they were, but their parents didn't, you know, and now GoFundMe has become a really like intergenerational, everybody's familiar with it, not for good societal reasons, as I mentioned, but they, they're a for profit business and they get a tip.

[4:05] And I was realizing that the main ways people are interacting with digital crowdfunding now, which are political contributions, and GoFundMe, they're being asked to leave a tip.

And that's actually more familiar now to folks than a lot of the other frameworks and creators, like they don't really have much money to spare. So could we move into that model?

And we figured out that like at worst it would basically be.

An even swap from a revenue perspective. And at best, if we do a really good job of articulating our value to our backers, we could do better.

And so January of last year, we removed fees from our creators and we moved to a tipping model with backers.

How's it going?

Yeah, it's break-even or better, actually. And I think what's interesting is that people who are inclined to tip are actually inclined to tip like 20%.

And that's very different from the 5% of before. And then that puts the onus on us to really articulate the value. And I think that's like an appropriate relationship for us to have.

Yeah. And then the creators get more of the money to put on the screen, as they say.

[5:25] Now, I also know you relocated your business to Atlanta. Can you talk about why and how that's going?

Relocating to Atlanta and Remote Work Dynamics

[5:30] I mean, yes, I relocated the business, but I relocated myself to Atlanta.

My team is now everywhere and we had an office in downtown LA until March 2020.

We shut it down a few days before the broader national shutdown. Basically when I saw people disinfecting doorknobs, I was like, let's go home. This is ridiculous. I'm going to move here. And then the shutdown soon followed.

We gave up our office pretty soon after that. And then we, over the next year and a half, we hired from everywhere.

[6:03] And at that point, like, it was clear we were never going back to an office.

And my husband and I had, I didn't, no shade, I didn't particularly enjoy living in Los Angeles.

It just isn't my spot. And we went and moved up to be near my parents during the pandemic in Sacramento and had a little bit more of like a quiet, calm, suburban existence.

Husband had to give up everything he was doing. He's an actor. He also is a really skilled personal trainer, does a lot of like, you know, healing and mobility work with folks.

And none of that was happening in person. And I was trying to rescue Seed and Spark from certain extinction. And so he became full time dad. And he stayed with two small kids. And he stayed, that way until three weeks ago when he went back to work full time. But moving to Atlanta gave him an opportunity to, without going back to LA, to still participate in the entertainment industry. So we got back here, he got an agent, he started auditioning again, then the strike happened. So he was like, okay, I'm just gonna, you know, I'm gonna go get some, some training work, which is what he's doing now. But part of it was, it's affordable to live here.

[7:14] If you are a person who is very interested in your kids going to public school and then also interested in your kids going to diverse public school and also in your kids going to diverse public school where there's enough resources to actually create good educational outcomes, you don't actually have that many choices in the entire country.

Yeah. But Gwinnett County, which is the largest county in Georgia, we managed to find a house, a walking distance from the most diverse public school in the state of Georgia, in one of the most diverse counties in America. And that was really important to us. So entertainment was one, education for the kids, affordable housing. We wanted enough space to grow things and we wanted a climate in which we could feel like we've responsibly grown them. Like, I know that California is having a record weather year, but it's not actually curing the drought and it's exacerbated a lot of really longstanding climate issues. And we we're looking for a slightly more stable piece of land where water fell out of the sky in reasonable intervals, where we could grow things and just live a little bit more of a sustainable existence.

And so that's what we've done.

[8:26] I love it. I'm such a proponent of public school. And- I love public school.

Yeah, I think it's so important. And we can talk about diversity all day long, but then if we keep our white children in these really expensive private schools, we're undermining the whole effort, but don’t get me started.

That's what private schools were built for, was to keep the white kids with the white kids. So that's what you get when you go there.

By design. Yes. Well, along the way, it seems that you've proven you can run a company with a diverse, diverse isn't the word I was looking for, although also that, but you can run a company- Distributed.

Yes, thank you. You're welcome.

The Benefits of Working from Home and Accessibility Accommodations

[9:09] Can you talk about that a bit? In a time where there's a lot of pressure to bring people back to the office and I'm having trouble figuring out why.

Well, bringing people back to the office in a forced way is sexist and ableist.

I'm just going to go ahead and say that, because the accessibility accommodations that were created almost overnight at the top of the pandemic so that people could work from home were things that disability activists had been screaming to make available for decades. And they were like, oh, so it was that easy. How interesting. Yeah. Suddenly it wasn't hard.

Yeah. When it really got her to the bottom line. Right. And so for me, the idea of going back to the office with all that we have gained from it in mobility, people being able to move where they want to move, you know, live the lifestyles they want to live, I think is really important. I think, three years in, I am having some major aha moments about assumptions that I held onto around how work would still be even though we were distributed, especially as the team changed. And And we didn't have trust that was built in person.

And the idea that, distributed work requires so much more attention to process and practice.

The Challenges of Remote Work and Communication Overload

[10:38] Because you can't learn things by osmosis. Just follow someone around and hear your leader talk and figure it out.

Exactly, and because conflict will get, conflict that might happen in a meeting gets resolved just between the two people and then you don't get to see them talking at the water cooler later and knowing then getting like a visual cue that like, oh, that's been resolved and feeling that relief. There are just a whole lot of community and like.

[11:07] It's also annoying because things that could be like, hey, over your shoulder, let me ask you this thing, become a meeting, or a Slack message or whatever.

I think the inundation of communication is really intense and it drove a ton of burnout that I couldn't explain because everybody's like, you're working from home, how could you be burned out?

It's like, well, no, now work in people's living rooms.

It's exhausting and constant.

[11:37] Yes, it's exhausting and constant. We have to pay way more attention to little details.

We have to do way more documentation.

We're having to learn and implement, experiment with, learn from, and implement new processes, figure out that those aren't working, or reset expectations for people who are like, I don't like this.

And you're like, yeah, well, unfortunately, we're going to have to do it anyway. And I'm sorry about that. That's a trade-off that we're making. If you want to stay home, this is now a trade-off that we're making.

It's really hard. I didn't have the skills for it. I didn't... I was not trained for it. I was learning along the way and fell on my face so many times. I'm super lucky to have a really brilliant COO who can see and has a lot more experience than I do and can really see things for what they are. And we hired some big gun outside consultants to help us work on the DEI side in the distributed environment, in the expectation setting, in the trust building. And we had to undertake a really intentional culture design that is taking literally years to implement because we also have to run this business and there aren't that many of us to run it, right? So it's been hugely challenging. And I think also challenging for me to set healthy boundaries.

And so, you know, the four-day week was something that we implemented last year.

[13:04] My gosh. Again, what's time? What is time?

About a year ago, just to try to address some of that digital burnout piece, like, Julie, I'm on 14 Zooms a day sometimes. And like, that's pretty regular. That's a lot.

You know what I mean? Like, I couldn't do it. I'd die if I had to do that five days a week.

Yeah. different level of like attentiveness and energy and all of those things.

Am I hearing a, and yet it's worth it at the end of this?

[13:35] You mean for working at home? Absolutely. Because the advantages are managing care for my kids.

The advantages are I can cook dinner. It's not just like I make it home in time for dinner, but I can cook dinner, which I love to do. For some people, I know that's a terrible chore.

For me, I love to do it. It's part of how I make a break from my day and reconnect with, with my family and myself, it allows us to hire brilliant people from absolutely anywhere.

Like I think about, this is just like one of our most recent hires is a guy named Mike Moran and he's in Rhode Island. And like, he's so stinking good at his job.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And there's no way we'd ever work, I would not know he existed otherwise and I'm so, so grateful for his work and his contributions.

And so I think about that and I think about Jade Flower in Baltimore, Maryland, like just these are unicorn humans.

Remote Work and Talent Attraction

[14:39] That like are not in Los Angeles and what we would be missing out on from a talent perspective and that the attributes of a four-day week and remote work are really attractive to folks.

[14:53] Yeah, it's brilliant. Can you talk a little bit how you think about the setting up the DEI culture of it all when, everyone's remote?

It's really hard. It's really hard. I've made a lot of mistakes.

I think the truth is like the DEI culture of it all means different things to different organizations and I have an organization where every single person in it has extraordinarily high expectations about the culture and the experience here. And there's, you know, honestly, less in like, nobody's in it for the money, right? It's not that people don't want to and deserve to be paid at whatever, but like, you don't come to work at Seed&Spark because you're like, I'm going to get wealthy, like a lot of startups. It's like, I am really mission aligned. Yeah. Right.

And so I didn't understand for a long time, because I obviously I give my heart to this thing because it's mine, but like I didn't understand the ways in which other folks also are really in it with their hearts.

And that actually is a much more delicate environment in which to work where like things that that.

[16:13] In other workplaces wouldn't even register as a blip are really significant in our workplace because people are in it with their hearts, right? So at Seed&Spark, nobody's ever been fired for disagreeing with something or... You know what I mean? You don't have that sort of thing. But people take conflict really personally because we think of ourselves as a really loving, empathetic, et cetera, place. And so conflict feels like really terrifying. And it's hard to like innovate and push and go forward and have no conflict. And when you're really trying to suppress conflict, that can create a lot of challenges. And so for us, it was really about sort of getting to the root of what are we trying to do here together? Can we really clearly define the roles that everyone is playing and the expectations for those roles. And can we make it very clear what decisions people are responsible for, which is super important in a distributed environment, what they're just a stakeholder in? Meaning you can expect to have meaningful input, but you don't get to make that call. And so the decisions that you're charged to make, you have to decide what trade-offs are being made and take responsibility for those trade-offs.

Balancing Conflict and Innovation in a Heartfelt Workplace

[17:34] In other cases, you may be mad about the trade... If you're just a stakeholder, you may be mad about the trade-offs that are being made. But it's just important that you understand why they're being made. And like this is... I'm saying this to you with language I have today that I didn't have 4, 6, 12. And so we're doing all those things. And then we're having to do them again and again as the business changes and shifts because we're a startup and stuff changes really fast. And so we are constantly having to redefine those things and also prioritize them amid all of the work that actually needs to get done.

But I have come to really believe that it's about expectation setting.

[18:11] And you do that through job descriptions. You do that through objectives and key results. You do that through... Charts that I'm having trouble thinking of the name of it. But where you're like, who's responsible, who's informed, who's a stakeholder, who's... Yeah, exactly. There are lots of really great frameworks for this that I really like. But I think at the end of the day, it's also about like demonstrating the practices, right?

So having meetings where there's an agenda and there are notes and there are action items. And that at the end of the day, everybody knows who's responsible for what action item because meetings are costly, right?

Interpersonally, making sure that people leave them being like, oh, I'm glad I was in that meeting. And I know what to do next.

Yeah, clarity is incredibly important. And it sounds like a lot of emotional labor but scaffolded by a lot of tools and clarity and steps.

Thank you for saying that. This is something that I now say to people coming into a distributed workplace that I did not know to say for like the first two years we were hiring, which is that distributed workplace requires a high degree of emotional labor.

And I learned this phrase from my friend Carla Monterosso, emotional discipline.

[19:28] Say more. Well, Number one is really getting to the, like, the emotional labor piece is trying to be really attentive to the visual cues, right?

There is digital body language, virtual body language, somebody's with their camera off or somebody's not really engaged, right? Somebody's not participating in the chat when they're asking to, et cetera.

There's digital body language that's important to acknowledge, but it's also really important when you're being triggered and you're having big feelings about something to try to actually unpack what's going on.

Accountability and Managing Triggers in Remote Work

[20:06] Before sort of really acting out in all of that reaction and being patient.

So I think the emotional discipline is really about patience with people needing to get to a place at their pace and trying to make sure that everybody has what they need to get where you go together.

And I think it's about constantly interrogating how information moves around the organization. And how accountability is practiced in the organization. But the, but accountability, real accountability is emotional labor.

Yeah, there was a part in the middle that I just felt so deeply having worked, you know, in large corporations in this remote business where there are times when you can be so triggered and the discipline of not having a rant on your Zoom.

[21:06] Is a challenge. Yeah. Yeah. I think what I've seen my, we have used a lot of practices over the months and one of our board members, who's a brilliant coach, and entrepreneur in her own right, Virginia Bauman, she gave us the framework of red, yellow, green, where you just do a little check-in with yourself And then, you know, at the beginning of a meeting, you can say, I'm green.

I'm like, I'm here. I'm present. I'm ready to go. I'm feeling good.

I'm yellow. I'm distracted or agitated, whatever. I'm red is red.

And my team, because we're artists, like have all different shades.

Importance of Acknowledging Our Protected Class Status

[21:46] Very popular. And I think in part it's because. We're a team where every single individual is in a protected class. Every single individual in our team is a member of a protected class. And so the society is not terribly friendly to us right now, in different ways at different times for different people. And we need to be able to acknowledge what we're walking into the room with.

And I have seen times when we've practiced red, yellow, green, And somebody has been like, not quite their full selves, but they said they were like orange.

So first of all, when someone says red, I'm usually like, do you need to be like, can we just take notes for you? And do you want to take time? And if they say like, no, I need to be here. I want to do work. I'm like, cool. I'm gonna respect that. But you've also told us how we need to treat what's coming out, right?

And I've watched the team like adjust around somebody who's like really trying to make it work that day.

And I've also seen times when we haven't done red, yellow, green, and things have fallen apart and we've had to repair it. And it was just, it's a really stark reminder for me of how important some of those things are when you can't literally feel someone's energy anymore.

Yeah, and you could be making up stories about the reaction that you're getting, having no idea.

Prioritizing Mental Health and Well-being in the Workplace

[23:11] Yeah. God, that is the work, isn't it? Yeah.

So we talk about this a lot in the realm of production, you know, instead of just barreling into your day, having a moment and checking in with people.

And then that step of if there are things people are dealing with, or they're not at top capacity, how do you manage that besides saying, okay, great, we're carrying on anyhow. Keep up.

You know, we have unlimited PTO and people take mental health days all the time. I don't want people to work sick and or tired. And I think the hardest lesson for me is to use that also.

Oh, you have to model it or no one will take it. Yeah, well, I mean, they, I would say everybody else the company is better at it than I am. Oh, they're doing it.

Yeah, with the exception of one person and she knows who she is and I'm constantly encouraging her to take a little bit more. But yeah, I mean, I think that piece of it too which is just building frameworks And if you know what work you're responsible for and what metrics you have to hit. We trust people's discernment to say, I'm down today, it's not gonna be worth the effort. Tomorrow when I come back, I'm gonna still hit my numbers and we move on. Because I don't think the quantity of work is important.

[24:35] Well, and that also shifts, my favorite article is that Harvard Business Review article of why there are no obstacles for incompetent white men.And the thesis is because we value Face Time, confidence, 

[24:53] Speaking up, bragging, telling us how great you are and see that as leadership and see that as productivity, when in fact it's none of those things.

And so it seems like when you're really looking at, you know, work quality and you're not having people fight for attention in a boardroom. It shifts the whole dynamic.

Yes. And I want to be clear, like, I don't think I'm killing it at this. I think I am. I am in a deep state of perpetual humility around this stuff that like, just when I think I've got it, something else comes up. And I'm like, Nope, I don't got it.

But I'm grateful that I'm, you know, I have a team that holds me accountable, which is the best thing you can ask for, because if they're not, you better wonder why.

And more than that, I'm surrounded by some really brilliant like leaders and advisors who have given me language and tools to actually tackle this and to have some awareness of the things that make me successful as a founder, are not the same skills that make me successful as a leader.

[26:05] I would argue that your humility and thoughtfulness about it is probably what makes you successful.

Maybe. I don't know what successful means, really, is in that I've messed it up royally on multiple occasions and have had to really re-evaluate my approach to things and apologize to people and, and figure it out.

And I, I feel like a perpetual beginner, but my title says I should know something about it. Right.

So, so I think there's my dog always having something to say about everything. It's the real working from home. Yeah. This is real work from home stuff. Yeah.

No, I really do feel like a perpetual beginner in many ways where I get excited is when we implement a new, you know, when I can pull something from one of these folks and we can implement it and it works is like really exciting. It's really and then you can see everybody else being like, oh retrospectives. Yeah, you know, it's like, it's awesome. It's awesome because like that's a tool they can then turn and use in their smaller teams in their meetings. And it's, it's really invigorating and I can see what it does to the energy of folks who may have been previously a little more disengaged. But I also look like Working remotely is not my dream.

Working alone vs. working with a room full of people

[27:30] This is like the truth, just speaking solely personally for me, like working alone in an office in my house, however creatively I get to decorate it, I don't like being by myself all day and I do work much better, like where my actual skill set is helping a room full of people move through some really hard ideas and big questions to action. That is actually my core capacity and And I can't do, you can't do it on Zoom in the same way.

Didn't you start WIMPs?

I did. As a salon in your house? Yes. Yeah, okay. Gathering groups of people.

[28:09] And asking really hard questions and trying to make space for people to grapple with the answers. That's what that group was about. As soon as it became sort of an organization that people were using digitally to like get jobs, I was no longer the right person to manage that.

And it really, WIMPs, Women in Moving Pictures Salon, for the people who are like, what is that?

Was literally meant to be a monthly gathering of people. And then the women in the group were like, hey, we'd really like this to be a listserv so we can hire each other and we can get help with things, and you need a rubber chicken on set Sunday morning, who's got one? That was a real request. I need somebody with expertise about sea lions.

But I mean, women were really hiring each other in droves. But once the list grew larger than the people who could meet, there was no longer mutual responsibility to one another and the mutual trust that came out of that core.

And like, I think about a lot about that as a founder that like.

[29:16] I am a zero-to-one founder. I'm like, what is the big brewing challenge here? And how can we, as a group of people, come to a really cool next solution? And how can we build some community around that? But the organizational piece is not my zone of genius. And so I learn it because it is my responsibility. But it's not what I bring to the table. You know what I mean?

[29:42] Are you able to do some of those gatherings? Yeah.

So we I tried to get together with team members and the team is awesome. Like they make efforts if they're traveling to see each other as well. You know, we just don't have the budgets to bring 20 people together from all over the country. That's the thing about is like, if we could get together on a quarterly or even semiannual basis without thinking twice about it, I think it would feel really different than it does today.

Something for early stage startups to really consider is that like, fine, hire people in 10 states, but what does it cost to like fly and put them up to get them together? It's not insignificant. Yeah. And if you don't have that budget, you're making a pretty significant trade off. And those are things that like, I didn't, I didn't think were priority to think about for a while. And so now we find ways around them, you know, like we travel, we meet at festivals for work events and you know, we do it in smaller groups. Sure. Now, Can we shift a bit and talk about FilmForward?

Prioritizing in-person gatherings for remote teams

[30:41] I remember seeing your presentation on it and I think it's such an exciting thing and I talk about it to whoever will listen. So why don't you tell us about what FilmForward is?

[30:49] Sure. FilmForward replaces boring, crappy corporate professional development training with experiential learning programs built around some of the world's best short cinema.

[31:02] And the genesis of FilmForward was from our creators. is that like around 2018, Seed&Spark had been in market for six years and we had tried to do all sorts of things around film distribution to try to connect our creators.

[31:18] To larger and larger audiences. But our creators came to us and they were like, hey, so now no matter how successful we are, we can get picked up by a big distributor out of a big festival, we are marketed on social media and we are streamed on streaming platforms. And the reviews written about us are distributed through digital media platforms.

And so everything about us and every delivery mechanism that we're put out through is being delivered via algorithm, like a heat seeking missile to people who already look like us and already think like us. And that is not why we make work. We make work to change people's minds and challenge their worldview.

Identifying the challenge of delivering films to diverse audiences

[31:56] And I remember where I was standing when the enormity of this problem actually hit me. And I was like, aha, okay. So the challenge is how do we deliver films to audiences at scale? Audiences who don't identify as the audience for the work in any digital way. And we can't really use social media or streaming because those are all using algorithms. Cool. What? How? And a really smart advisor of mine said, Emily, did you know the workplace is the most diverse place most people are in their lives? I was like, oh, that's really interesting.

But we didn't, you know, we'd been a crowdfunding marketplace for six years, like we didn't know from enterprise. And so we did a six-month research project and we talked to hundreds and hundreds of enterprise leaders. So primarily in the C-suite, chief diversity officers, people, I like to talk to CFOs, so you know how the money moves in an organization. We talked to employee resource group leaders and consultants and academics.

[33:05] And you know, the number one thing we heard, the easiest piece of information we could glean is nobody likes corporate training videos or believes they're particularly effective.

Not. And many times in the category of professional development, the framework was perpetuating harm, because it was sort of like giving people a certificate for things they were not ready to practice and hadn't been given the opportunity to practice. Or in the case of DEI, it was relying a lot on getting groups of people together for brave conversations that they were not prepared or resourced to have. And then the marginalized folks in the room were being asked to perform their trauma for their colleagues so that the like white or straight or cis or male, colleagues in the room would empathize.

[33:53] Then those folks felt good about themselves. And the marginalized folks would be like, cool, that's not gonna change anything.

And now my emotional labor has been used for the benefit of my white colleagues. I'm like, what did I get out of this? And this was actually sowing division. And we were like, well, that's a really cool problem to solve because we use movies for collective sense-making all the time. And in fact, all the other challenges we were really hearing them talk about, right?

So organizational adaptability and resilience to globalization or global markets or global audiences, retention and engagement of employees because we needed to develop more psychologically safe mechanisms in the workplace, leadership, just as a category, leadership.

These are all actually like stories that we tell about how we do things here, right?

Yeah. And we use films for collective sense-making all the time, but because of the algorithmification, it's definitely really hard to have a water cooler around which we can all gather and talk about one thing we've all seen.

[34:59] And so we started with this sort of idea that we're gonna bring the water cooler conversation back with a purpose, but we realized that we had to go far beyond just making better video experiences, that actually we needed to engage a very different theory of change, that moved people from experience.

Scaling practice from individuals to teams and creating organizational accountability

[35:23] Through like framework understanding to action and lasting practice behavior change. And that couldn't happen just at the individual level. It needed to, we needed individuals to have experiences and reflection and frameworks so that they could actually map this stuff into their brains in the way that it would stick.

We needed to scale that practice into teams.

And then we needed to create some organizational accountability This we do through executive insight data that actually helps organizations understand where their policies, practices, and structures are impeding professional development in the organization.

Okay, so many layers to that. Because a big part of it sounds like the shared experience and the shared agreement of what we saw means. Yeah, that's right.

And then how we're going to use that to affect change and hold ourselves accountable.

Love it. Can you give us an example?

Sure. We have this really incredible Norwegian short film called The Affected. And The Affected takes place on an airplane, on a tarmac. It's a crowded airplane, a busy tarmac.

[36:34] And off camera, so you're spending a little bit of time with the pilot and the stewardesses, and I don't know, you call them flight attendants, and you're sort of traveling around with different passengers. And then off camera, you can hear a woman stand up and starting to to protest that somebody on the plane is going to be deported and she won't sit down until this person is moved to safety. And so this protest is happening and now you're traveling back through and listening to how they all react. And the captain has to make a decision, and he's like, just, you know, tell her to get off the plane, whatever we, you know, we got to go. And you see this whole thing deteriorate and the captain makes a decision that his first mate or whatever that guy's called supports or ostensibly supports. And, then as it's clear that was like a very unpopular decision, the first mate says, well, I never agreed with it.

Now corporate is calling, right? And the captain gets ousted off the plane and replaced by somebody who makes a very magnanimous statement about how I have decided to stop the deportation, which is not something an individual captain can do.

And then it becomes clear over the credits that the airline is just moving this person to the next flight to try to ameliorate the problem. And it's 11 minutes. And at the end of it, we can ask really interesting conversations about accountability.

Conversations about accountability and the cost of masking in the workplace

[37:53] Who is accountable for the decision-making? What tools did they have available? What mistakes did they make? And you also get all the different perspectives on what's happening from the people on the airplane. My favorite question that we open a lot of our discussions with is like, who are you?

[38:10] In the film. Yeah, who are you in the film? And it's just absolutely fascinating what opens up because I think actually it's less important that we necessarily have a shared meaning about what happens, but that people start to hear, the very different perspectives people have about what happened based on their lived experience.

And so it is a practice of perspective taking, which is super important to building any sort of like shared agreement or innovation or anything like that. And it starts to allow people to be like, Oh, wow, that person comes from a very different vantage point than I do. And they revealed something to me that I never otherwise would have seen.

The next time I'm in a meeting and they're saying something that feels out of left field to me, I'm going to be like, no, that comes from just a very different vantage point and I'm going to dig in, there. Right.

So it's really about using films as a very safe place to learn some of these pretty hard relational skills.

[39:11] Yeah, the asking of the questions, because my first thought would be, oh, well, that would very quickly devolve into an argument about immigration, which- Yeah, we don't go there.

That part is so much less important than really talking about who was holding the decision-making power and why were people's decisions what they were and yeah, do you know what I mean?

Yeah. the discussion part of it is so important. And your platform is both, right?

You share the film and then you have, is it modules about it and then also in-person discussion?

But usually we do, the most typical engagement is six to 12 learning modules and most companies roll them out at the rate of a module a month.

[40:01] And then, and a module is a film and a set of reflection questions and then frameworks and actions and tools and resources.

So you can learn a lot of things and we will usually charge you with some behavior experiments for the next month that we check on subsequently.

And then every two modules, we do a facilitated session to unpack across two films.

And part of that is to really dig at the intersections of experience, right?

So that like, we're not just talking in this case about immigration, and it really wasn't so much about immigration as like, what was everyone experiencing on that airplane and what were their perspectives on it?

But in that same session, we're also talking about an incredible film about a young trans woman.

[40:51] Who is working in her father's auto body shop and masking her true gender because the place is called Miller and Son.

And that is really about inclusive communication.

It is about the, like, what is it to feel psychologically unsafe in a workplace? What is it to have to mask? What is the cost of that, right? There's some really powerful pieces in there.

And so you layer that in with conversations about accountability, and now you have a really interesting and rich landscape for people to start to understand what the connections are between these issues and how they relate to the, we'll call it the DEI of it all, because what we're really talking about are like, what are the skills we need to have, like an actually effective and psychologically safe workplace?

[41:40] And the DEI of it all is like, how do we just learn as a baseline to respect the humanity of people who are different from us? That's what it is, why is it so hard?

The lack of human dignity as a foundational value in American culture

[41:53] Because human dignity is not a foundational value in American culture.

Say more. Individual achievement is our foundational value. Human dignity is not a foundational value. We don't assign people dignity at birth. They have to earn it through their hard work and their wealth and their, then their performances.

And usually they have to earn it much more if they are born poor and or black and or any degree of difference from the like, you know, white patriarchal sort of perfection.

And because if human dignity were a foundational value, we would not tolerate one child shot by a gun. We would not tolerate one unhoused person. We wouldn't tolerate it. We would not be able to imagine that was possible.

But instead, it's like, well, if it infringes on my individual liberty or my individual achievement, that's on you.

So yeah, I think the reason that we have to train it in the US is because it's not foundational. And unfortunately we outsource everything to the private sector.

[43:03] And so trying to make a shift in our human values as part of what we're outsourcing to the private sector because the lack of value of human dignity is materially impacting our productivity.

[43:17] And if what you really value is productivity, you might think differently about why DEI exists. And I don't personally believe that we're on this planet to produce work output. That's actually not my fundamental feeling, but I'm like, is that the lever we have, to get people to really prioritize the work of human dignity? Fine, that's a lever I would use.

Yeah.

I think Film Forward is genius. Cause we know entertainment shapes culture and we know what a powerful tool it is in every aspect of our lives. And so then to use it in that way, I just think it just makes it so accessible and in a way that people will engage and not do something else while the Zoom is on.

How is it performing?

I didn't really know what to compare it to because I've never launched a SaaS company before, but my understanding is everybody says like, oh, getting to a million in ARR is nearly impossible.

We did it in like 16 months. Well done.

And that's less of the excitement of the value then that our existing clients are constantly expanding with us and wanting to roll out new curricula and wanting us to solve other organizational challenges that we're like, we'll get there, we need some time.

But I think for me, the most exciting piece of it is these really small aha moments where you can see people's perspective has meaningfully shifted.

[44:45] It's this incredible film. It was crowdfunded on Seed&Spark. It was nominated for an Oscar, and now it's one of the core pieces of one of our best-selling curricula, which is called Behaviors of Belonging. And it's a film about this beautiful little one-night friendship struck up between an unhoused young man and a deafblind man who enlists his help to get on a bus. And And that is the film we use to introduce the concept of privilege to people.

And there's nobody working in a modern workplace who can watch that film and come out the other side and be like, I don't have any privilege. I don't get it.

[45:27] Yeah. And so we'll see people be like, I used to think the concept of privilege meant that you didn't work for what you had. But now I see that actually it's real and that it operates and I'm going to be more mindful of that in the future. And like, that's actually a million mile leap for someone, right? Because they've shifted from fixed mindset to growth mindset.

And we see these over and over again.

One of my favorite things is the CEO of one of the companies we work for said, I took one of the films home and watched it with my kids and it opened up a conversation about, race in our family that we've never had before.

And I just get chills. I get chills every time I tell that story, because it's like, the other thing I think is actually happening with Film Forward is people are being reminded of why art is important, and that it's important everywhere.

It's not just important after 7 p.m. or on the weekends, it's important everywhere. It can be valuable all the time. And that like, the work of artists is not limited to entertainment. It's not limited to free time, it's actually essential work.

Personal Relationships and the Political Landscape

[46:37] Right, for people's interpersonal relationships in their families, in their workplaces, right, with themselves. And that's the piece of the work that gets me out of bed every day.

Yeah. I could just listen to you talk all day, swear to God. I wanted to revisit a conversation that we had before we turned on the recorder, because I think it's also important if we could just recreate that conversation. Because we were talking about, I was telling you how my husband lives in Tennessee and we have a lot of talk about do we stay in Tennessee or how much time are we gonna spend there considering the political landscape and the vulnerable people in our family? And is that a compatible thing?

And everyone is uncomfortable being there. And you were talking a bit about living in your neighborhood in Atlanta. Go.

[47:24] Oh, well, listen, I think, look, I have the privilege of mobility, right?

So my family could pick up and live in a lot of places And we have a lot of privilege of choice right now. Our kids are small, we're done having children. And so we can kind of weather some of the, more fascist policies that are being rolled out in red states.

And that's, you know, that's privilege that we have. And we moved here because we wanted to enroll our kids in a really diverse public school system that we felt like that was well-resourced and like. That's hard to find anywhere in the nation. It happens to exist in Gwinnett County, which is the largest county in Georgia. My son goes to the most diverse school in the state.

[48:14] And it's a really sweet elementary school and we love it here.

[48:18] And moving here has brought so many good things to our lives. We moved primarily because we work in entertainment. Atlanta is a good entertainment town. But I'm also working in the corporate sales side and Atlanta is a huge corporate town. And climate, you know, this is a really like climate stable place. We can grow things, we can afford to buy a house, which we couldn't, at any point at any time in California, nor any time in the future. And when we moved here, like the really regressive laws hadn't started passing, right? So we moved here, I think with a little bit with stars in our eyes, not realizing how quickly things were going to deteriorate post the overturn of Roe v. Wade. And that said, I live on a really interesting cul-de-sac where some of the original, this whole cul-de-sac was built in the 70s.

And a couple of the original owners still live here. My neighbor, Bill, he's 95. And my neighbors down the street, whose names I will leave out because of what I'm about to say. access on the internet?

Interacting with Neighbors Holding Conflicting Beliefs

[49:23] Bill's probably not hanging out with me. But our neighbors at the end of the street have been here since the 70s. They're in their 80s. They're a really lovely and kind and generous and thoughtful couple that really cares about the neighborhood.

And I didn't have a chance to really know that about them because when I moved here, they were flying an American flag and a Confederate flag. And I was like, well, I'm not gonna really spend more time with them.

And Bill's caretaker, who is a black woman in her

[49:52] I don't know, early 50s, probably, like, I, she was one of the first people I met in the neighborhood. And I was like, alright, give me the skinny.

Like, what's up? How does it feel? You know? And she was from California originally, also. And I was like, like, what's up with those people down the street?

She's like, you know what, they're really kind people. And I was like, what's up with the flag? And she's like, you know, sort of shrugged her shoulders and was like, you know, it doesn't seem to impact how they treat people. And I thought, well, that's very interesting.

It's not what I would expect. And then my husband got in a conversation with that neighbor. And because the kids were playing at the end of the cul-de-sac.

And he was saying, you know, when we moved here in the 70s, it was all young families and it was all white families. And now, and he sort of gave an inventory of the diversity of the block. And my husband was like, oh my God, where is this going? And the man says, you know, it's really changed. It's much more diverse, all for the better, I think.

[50:44] Said the guy with the Confederate flag. The guy with the Confederate flag.

My husband and I were like, the cognitive dissonance is shattering. And then, like, a really, the loveliest, they've become like family to us, a gay couple down the street moved in with their adopted son. And, you know, the dynamics of the neighborhood shifted enough. And, um, it's sort of weirdly seemed to intersect with our latest election here in Georgia, which we had another close call, the Confederate flag came down and the Georgia state flag went up. And I really believe that one of his kids or somebody in the neighborhood was like, hey, don't think you're signaling what you mean to be signaling. Because if what you're signaling is like pride of place, you're doing it in a way that's not really going to jive for everyone else in the neighborhood. And I think the Georgia state flag is probably closer to what he means.

But what I think is like fascinating is, and you said this earlier, you know, Michelle Obama says it's hard to hate someone up close. What he really cares about is neighborliness.

[51:57] Do you know what I mean? Like he talks about himself as sort of like the protector of that end of the cul-de-sac. And we got the guy up here who has a thin blue line flag in his front yard, who's the protector of his part of the cul-de-sac. And they are really good neighbors to an extraordinarily diverse group of people.

And so it's really confusing to me how they hold these two things side by side.

And also it's really interesting to me to actually witness incremental change, even in the people that we will be like, ah, you know, it was a different time. You know, yeah, we, there's a real ageism in the growth mindset piece, right? That like, oh, you know, he's never gonna change his ways. And I just like, I saw it happen. Yeah.

[52:48] You know? And so part of it is that, you know, growing up in a liberal bubble, my first instinct was always - a Confederate flag, I'm not gonna build a relationship.

Right, right, I'm out.

[52:57] Yeah, and it gives me no opportunity to actually offer perspective that can make things different.

And I've witnessed that with my, you know, my neighbor's kids who are on the real, neighbors, the kids, they're like in their 70s now. But they're, they have a really different political affiliation, but they, and they were not like, particularly sweet to us when they found out we were from California. I think one of them was like, Oh, we think everybody from California is crazy.

And I was like, sure, is that hospitality because I feel like that was aggressive. But over time, you know, we care for Bill and we bring him food and we make him birthday cakes and my daughter goes to visit and keep some company.

And I think we are doing some deprogramming because I can see how very differently they consider us and consider our ideas when we have, you know, conversations about harder topics.

[53:59] I can get them to agree around points of human dignity and what our culture might look like if human dignity were at the center, right?

And they can really nod their heads and agree with that. And like, I don't think that's necessarily being talked about in their circle. And it only happens if we just step up to have those conversations. And as white people in this country who have that, you know, capacity to move around, I'm going to say this, as white cis straight people.

[54:28] I need to be specific. Let's be very specific, yeah. Yeah.

As white cis straight people, we have a lot of capacity to move around and have these conversations and there's a neighbor on our block who is trans and when the laws started changing down here, we put up a flag to make sure that it was very clear that there's safety here.

And I think that was a demand of this place that I sort of imagined but I didn't really know what it was gonna be like. Yeah. And this is also the work. It's personal and it's one on one.

And it and it's also Sarah Silverman show where she would go into red states and red families and talk to them and humanize ideas and people. Yeah. 

What have I not asked you about that I should have asked you about?

Hold on, I have no idea what anybody wants to know from me at this point.

No, this has been a really interesting conversation. I mean, I think overall, in the course of the questions that you're asking, I realized like I've had to really go back to beginner's mindset because it turned out like I never actually knew the stuff I needed to know at all, because I didn't know I needed to know it.

Until you did. Because I was swimming in the water of white supremacy and that told me like I was fine.

[56:59] Yeah. Right? And so like I can talk about experiences I've had and like lessons I've learned, but it's like practicing and trying and failing every single day in many ways, and then trying to pick myself back up again.

And it has required a level of grace with myself that is very hard for me to muster.

And also a level of like really being comfortable, being uncomfortable that like, I can't attach myself to the idea that everybody's gonna think I'm great at this.

[57:36] Because they don't, they won't, I'm not. and that can't be my goal.

Well, and it feels like a shift to me of...It's not a period of time that we're going to feel uncomfortable and be working this out.

This is just the new normal.

Correct. Because this work isn't going to be done next week.

Correct. Well, I think I would love for us to work towards a society in which, we think more about how to create, this is the human dignity piece, how to create, a sense of comfort and autonomy and connection.

Struggling to Articulate the New Paradigm

[58:16] From the beginning as opposed to having to talk about shared discomfort and inclusion, meaning you're still just inviting people to a table that wasn't theirs originally.

And we have just, there's a real big distance between here and there. Between imperative work and the new paradigm.

Yeah, and I feel like we're still really struggling to articulate what that new paradigm might be. There's no effing political leadership. I mean, that's not true. There is very little political leadership that we can point to that really shows us that.

I don't wanna say none, because I can think of like seven people I would actually point to, but that's not what the sort of national stage is.

That's not what the national paradigm is. And so we are, like all things that we do in this country, is rather than doing systems work, right?

Rather than making massive sweeping corporate level climate change, we're just having individuals recycle. Yeah. That is so useless. Yeah, we're not tackling the corporate plastic usage on a systems level because what we value is individual determination.

Individuals are then responsible for solving these big social challenges and that's a perfect way to get them to break down and give up. And never do it.

[59:36] It. Yeah. So like, I'm feeling all of that all the time. Yeah.

Okay. Give me one of your self care things that you're doing to keep going and not burning out.

[59:48] I took a generative writing class for the last six months. It's been one of the best things I've ever done in my whole life.

What does that mean? So rather than a writing class where you're bringing things in and getting critiqued and trying to work on productive output, it's really just building a practice of writing, getting used to sharing your work, getting feedback that is actually the stuff that you're looking for, building a relationship to your own writerliness. And yeah, it's gotten me back in touch with the fact that movies are not actually my creative medium. Short fiction is my creative medium. And I think once you get into the movie business, every story you tell has to become a script. And I got reminded sometime late last year by a dear friend that like, you know, you can just write short stories. And I was like, I can? And it turns out, yeah, I can. And I am, and I do, and it feels great.

So you're getting back in touch with being an artist, which is what started this whole thing at the very beginning. That's right. That's great. 

Emily Best, I love talking to you. Oh, I love talking to you too. Thank you so much, Julie. I really appreciate your time.

[1:00:54] You've been listening to The Other 50%, a Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver.

Thank you to Emily Best for the conversation and for sharing her story.

Special thanks to Jay Roewe, Dani Rossner, and Alison McQuaid for the music. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and rate and leave a review to help other people find it.

You can find me at julieharrisoliver@gmail.com or find me at physical therapy.

That's where I am all day every day feels like. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

EP 233: Blake Mitchell

EP 233 Blake Mitchell

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] The Catch A Break podcast is the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry with me, Julie Harris Oliver Project Greenlight is a do you follow show now Streaming on Max about the making of an independent film by an emerging director on season four of Catch A Break.

These two shows meet in Catch a Break. We will bring you the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. We'll talk to producers, the director, the cast, the department heads to hear what it was really like. Watch the show and then come listen to hear what really happened on Catch a Break wherever you get your podcasts.

That season of Catch A Break Drops on July 13th,

you're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find me in my consulting work julieharrisoliver.com, and you can find the podcast at Theotherfiftypercent.com, all spelled out in letters as well as on all the podcast places. Or you can find links to everything I'm doing on the link tree that is in the show notes.

Okay. Now one more thing before we meet today's guest. Have you checked out Circling the Drain [00:01:00] yet? Okay. Remember when Don Lemon said that Nikki Haley was beyond her prime and got rightfully torched online. He may as well have said she was circling the drain. The concept of a woman circling the drain or being past or prime is absurd.

But for the host of Circling The Drain podcast, they've heard this phrase due so many times in reference to perimenopause, menopause, and the plight of the aging woman, they have chosen to reclaim and repurpose the phrase in the spirit of humor. Co-host, longtime friends, Ellie and Julia take a deep dive into the sometimes embarrassing, often hilarious, always bewildering issues of hormonal changes that take the place in midlife.

Through honest accounts, thoughtful interviews and group panel discussions, their mission is to make you chuckle, make you nod your head in recognition, and hopefully make some scientific progress. Could someone please start studying women in medicine? That would be great. Turn into Circling the Dream Podcast every other Wednesday, wherever you get your podcast.

[00:02:00] Now, today on this podcast, we have the good fortune to speak with Blake Mitchell. Blake Mitchell, they/ them began their career in film production in Los Angeles, working for the VP of Production at Participant Media. After leaving LA, they worked at Google for over eight years where they managed teams in diversity and inclusion, learning and development and recruiting.

A Georgia native. Blake moved back to the South in the fall of 2022 to work as an operations manager on Stacey Abrams campaign for governor. They recently launched their own consulting business focused on workplace diversity and inclusion and organization culture. Blake holds bachelor's degrees in international business, finance and entertainment and media studies from the University of Georgia.

Also, Blake has been performing in drag as Mary Lou Pearl, she/ her., and sees drag as a powerful tool to entertain, educate, raise money, and spread positivity. Mary Lou Pearl got her start in the drag bars and clubs of San Francisco in 2017 where she became known as a kind queen who loves giving back and spreading positivity.

[00:03:00] She spent the last two summers working in teaching drag at Brave Trails LGBTQ plus summer camp where she's returned this summer as head counselor. Now I'm going to tell you right now, drag along with gay queer trans is under attack in this country. Hardly any of the talking heads screaming about indoctrination of children have any idea what they're talking about.

So we're going to take some time today and really unpack it. What is drag actually here? Have a listen. Blake Mitchell, welcome to the other 50%.

Blake Mitchell: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Julie Harris Oliver: First of all, we should say that you are a D E I consultant, and you work with companies to bring, I imagine, equity and inclusion into their workplaces, and you also work as a drag performer.

So I wanna say upfront, for whoever's listening, we are gonna talk about this with a lot of nuance. Okay. I think there is so much need right now to really talk about things with nuance and really talk about what things actually are and talk about the history and [00:04:00] talk about the intent and, okay, so let's talk about all that stuff.

And we were, we were also talking about like the safety of it all. Cause I gotta tell you, four years ago, I did all kinds of interviews with all kinds of people. That to me, felt very risky because I was uncomfortable talking about it, like I had a dominatrix on. And I learned all about that. Mm-hmm. And this feels risky in such a different way than it did three or four years ago, cuz now it feels like it could be physically unsafe to talk about this.

And so I just want to, I wanna state that I wanna honor that and I wanna thank you for being willing to do this cuz I think it's so important that people really get educated

Blake Mitchell: about this. Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate, I mean, first of all, thank you so much for the caring concern to even raise that and be thoughtful of it.

And you know, as we spoke about before we got started, it's something unfortunately many of us have to consider these days, given the climate of things. But. As I told a friend recently, um, I think that not going there is even more dangerous in different ways because there needs to be as much truth spouted [00:05:00] out amidst all of the, you know, lies that are being told about the queer community in this season.

So I'm very grateful to get, to have that conversation with you today and to your point, like, let's go there. We can talk about it in all levels of depth and, and confront the, the challenging edges of all of this.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, good. I think the people spouting nonsense are really loud and taking up all the space and it's very appropriate here we are in Pride Month and I'll do my best to get this edited and out during Pride month also.

So should we start with just what is drag?

Blake Mitchell: Yeah. You know, I think drag. It takes so many different shapes and forms. Maybe many of your listeners or many people are likely most familiar with the RuPaul's Drag Race version of Drag Super Fans, which is super fans. Yeah. Very legitimate and fun. And I think in many ways that show has brought drag performance into the zeitgeist in a way that it had not been before.

Certainly it's been around for a long time and important to a lot of people, but in terms of just exposure to wider audiences, that element, uh, which for a long time, RuPaul was [00:06:00] criticized for having. Largely cis gay men who are doing drag as women, but drag is so much more complex about the show, started to incorporate more trans and non-binary identities.

Even, uh, trans men who've been on the show now, trans women, but drag, you know, it, it's roots are complicated. There's not necessarily an easy answer, I would say, like we've seen. Examples of gender nonconforming dress and performance for thousands, hundreds of years. The current sort of drag scene really emerged out of the ballroom scene in New York and other major cities, uh, during the eighties.

Primarily. When I say ballroom, I don't mean like ballroom dancing, I mean like voguing culture and those sort of spaces that were largely led by, uh, trans women of color. And were not the drag necessarily that you see today, but. Even RuPaul got their start in that, in those spaces. And as that sort of evolved and came into the mainstream, I mean, many of us know Madonna's Vogue as like one of the moments when we really gotta look into what that, what that world meant.

It's become. More and [00:07:00] more, um, in some ways appropriated, but also, uh, many of those people have found their way into the main stage and the, the limelight, um, in a different way. And so, you know, drag, that's sort of the history and cultural context for, for me and for many, it's a playful exploration of gender, of queer identity.

It's a way to spread joy to be on stage and perform. Um, the shape that my drag has taken, uh, has been much more about educating, uplifting causes that matter to me, raising money and finding an audience and a voice through social media in addition to live performance. So it really, you know, has taken a lot of shape and I, um, always tell people when we talk about drag and Mary Lou Pearl, my drag persona that she's taught me.

So much about myself and my own identity and that sort of journey of becoming, which we can of course get into as much as I feel like I've been able to do with the tool. So,

Julie Harris Oliver: Now let's separate for the uninitiated, separate sexuality from gender from drag.

Blake Mitchell: That's an [00:08:00] excellent starting point. Thank you for Yeah, asking that.

I would say, um, and I'm, I'm fresh on explaining this cuz I came out to my parents as non-binary about a year ago. So that we've had many of these conversations as well. I would say sexual orientation, um, gay straight. By lesbian is more about who you are attracted to, who you wanna sleep with or partner with in a more romantic sense, gender identity, which I would also distinguish from sex.

So sex is what you're assigned at birth based on chromosomes, body parts that is distinct from your gender, which is how you experience that. So the way that. You feel in your own body the way that what dress makes you feel affirmed, whether you feel man, woman, something in between, neither of the two. And so it's much more your experience and all of the other things.

You know, we often attach color to gender when we talk about babies and gender reveals and things like that. So it's much more about the all the other things versus just your genetics or anatomy. Then drag for some people is just a form of [00:09:00] expression. It's a form of performance. They enjoy the theatrical element of putting on clothes that are not traditional for their gender identity.

Using that in a performative sense to pay homage to certain artists to play and have fun for some, it begins that way and then becomes an exploration of deeper things. There are many people that I am friends with who started doing drag and realize like, wow, this feels affirming from an identity perspective.

And so they've discovered. They're trans or non-binary identity through that performance. So it can lead to that. But in its core is more about the performative element of drag versus it being necessarily attached to someone's identity.

Julie Harris Oliver: Are there straight men who do drag?

Blake Mitchell: There are actually, there was for the first time on RuPaul's Drag Race, somewhat a straight identifying man who was on the show.

I would say it's traditionally associated with the queer community. But, you know, drag, uh, there's a, a quote that's been way overused, but I'm gonna use it again, uh, that RuPaul says, which is, we're all born naked and the rest is drag. And so I think [00:10:00] where I grew up outside of Atlanta, The super country dudes driving their big trucks with the big tires.

You probably see something similar in Tennessee when you're there. Um, and the camo and the hat and the whole look. There's some in LA drag. Yeah, there's some in LA that's drag too, right? It's just a different, it's it's gender performance where you're putting on this hyper masculine thing that is affirming, which is great.

And you know, so I think they're doing it in their own way. But in terms of what we think of when we say drag, I would say it's traditionally queer, but. There are plenty of, uh, there are some straight men, I would say. I know a decent number of cisgendered straight women as well who do drag and find. It is a really fun, performative element too.

And in my book, there's space for everybody, so,

Julie Harris Oliver: So when women are doing drag, and I know my questions will try to keep jamming things into boxes, which isn't appropriate, but are they doing drag as women or are they doing drag as men?

Blake Mitchell: It can be either. So sometimes there are straight or cis identifying cisgender, as you know, for [00:11:00] listeners distinct from trans.

So they identify with the gender they were assigned. So cis straight women who love the just. Amping up of their femininity and, and being sort of hyper feminine. So they, they perform as drag queens and there are a number of them who are great friends of mine that I used to perform with in San Francisco when I lived there.

Some perform as drag kings, so then they put on a more masculine, um, identity and, and do that. Some do both. And then there's of course, like people who dress up in sort of a more androgynous, not typically ascribed to either gender, just more artistic sort of form that. You know, it's just sort of their own, but it really can be either.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's, I, I'm just remembering as you're saying that I was watching one of the hearings, cuz you know, every state is doing some shenanigan right now, so. Right. All, all those hearings are on TikTok or as I call it, um, npr. But I remember a, a woman sitting in female drag talking about it, trying to educate the legislature if you really don't know what you're talking about, cuz mm-hmm.

She was a woman doing drag and you know, they're all hysterical. [00:12:00] There's so many things I wanna dig into with you cuz we wanna talk about the legislation of it all. I wanna talk about your personal journey. Shall we talk about you? Let's talk about you and your journey.

Blake Mitchell: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So I, uh, grew up in a very rural community outside of Atlanta.

I claim Atlanta, but we actually live, my parents live about 45 minutes outside of Atlanta. Um, grew up on a dirt road, went to a small school, graduated high school with 13 people. So very like rural, small town. Yeah. 13 people. 13 people in my class, as far as they knew I was the first person to ever come out at that school.

Um, and it was a whole thing. And at that time I came out as gay. Uh, so I was more understanding of my sexual orientation, but it was a big deal. That was not in high school. You, you came out in high school. Yes, uh, in high school, lived in a very religious community and went to church once or twice a week growing up, which was very disruptive when I came out.

And we were ultimately asked not to go there anymore because of that and sort of cast out. Mm-hmm. There was a lot of like tough [00:13:00] edges in being in the south. As a young queer person,

Julie Harris Oliver: did they ask your whole family to stop coming to church?

Blake Mitchell: So there was a day where I had not publicly told anyone there, but I'd come out at my school and it got back.

And as I was entering the building, The, I was confronted by the pastor and the deacons who pulled me into a side room and essentially said, if you don't choose to, to deny this and not be this way, you're not welcome here anymore. And we'll, we can help you, but if you're not willing to take our help, then you're not willing to be here.

And my parents said, number one, don't pull my kid into a room and have these conversations about us here. And two, we're never stepping foot in here again if this is like, if this is what's happening. So that was the last time I was ever there.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm sorry that happened to you and also good for your parents.

Blake Mitchell: Yeah, they had not quite figured everything out, but they knew that wasn't right. Yeah. Um, and they knew that if it was somewhere that rejecting of someone, just based on this one element of their identity, that it was not safe. So it was a, you know, a challenging, there was a lot of edges there. I, I'm very grateful [00:14:00] to have, you know, over time parents who've become very accepting, understanding, but we struggled in our own right as well to kind like find a common ground, grew up conservative and religious.

And when I got through college, I was like, I need to get out of the south. I need to move and, and grow somewhere else. And so, uh, moved to Los Angeles where relevant to our, you know, your work. I, I worked in the film industry, was actually my first job. I studied film and finance in school and moved to LA to be a film producer.

Worked for one for a couple years and that was not, I guess, what I expected. I ended up having a great experience and learning a lot, but it just was, it was a, a career trial that just did not end up being where I wanted to be ultimately.

Julie Harris Oliver: So, you know, I always joke that, um, people like dream their whole lives about getting into the entertainment industry and then as soon as they're in, they're trying to figure out how to get out.

Blake Mitchell: I mean, that's how it felt a little bit. Yeah, I would be very open, I think, with some time and space to be. More plugged in and tapped back in in different ways, but I think at the time it was like also just the shock of going from what I just explained to Los [00:15:00] Angeles and living in that. And I was like, where on earth did I just move?

It's like, go to the moon, right? I was like, I remember I had just moved to LA and I was walking into work and there was someone in the building, not in my company, but at somewhere else, and I opened the door. Southern, you're always open the door, hold the door for someone when they go through. And this woman looked at me and scouted and she said, you chauvinistic pig.

I don't need you to hold the door for me. Fuck off. And then walked into the building and I was like, oh no, I'm just trying to be nice. This like nice southern kid.

Julie Harris Oliver: Many of us have been guilty of that over rotation. Yeah, me in my twenties, I apologize to everybody.

Blake Mitchell: No, I mean, I don't know what sort of day she was having or what that triggered, so legitimate response.

But for me I was just like, I dunno where I moved. And so some of it was just that, that I think LA was a bit overwhelming and, but learned a lot, had got picked up. A lot of fun stories and. Ultimately to make a long story shorter, uh, wound up moving to San [00:16:00] Francisco, um, after I'd been in LA a couple years to start, uh, what became a nine year career at Google.

Um, I started as a recruiting coordinator doing support work for HR and recruiting functions. And then over the time I was there, moved into doing learning and development work and managed a few teams there for a number of years. That was really my pull to HR was getting to like, Do the training and development and work with folks.

I felt like that felt like a really meaningful way to connect with folks in a corporate environment and you know, had always sort of been tangent to d e I work and there was a lot that we were doing in the training space also. Really, I was working on hiring programs there and of course a lot of work to do in, in equity and hiring.

And really felt drawn to that. And so, uh, that led me to my last couple years at the organization where I led a couple teams and Google Central Diversity and Inclusion team, uh, largely centered around, uh, retention and progression of underrepresented populations in tech. But also doing a lot of like organizational diagnostic work with leaders at YouTube and Google Cloud and Google Marketing, and really helping them understand [00:17:00] the landscape of their employee population, where there are gaps and where they could make changes or stage interventions to, I mean, one, retain people, but just make their organization more equitable and inclusive.

So, um, right. Learned a a lot in that space. And that's, you know, My current chapter of doing HR consulting, which we can get into, but I'll, I'll just say in the background of all of that, while I was in San Francisco, there was this whole personal transformation going on when Mary Lou Pearl and my drag was beginning because I, I joke that I never like saw drag on television.

It was like, I want to do that. That's the thing. How do I do that? It was just this like slow progression where I moved to San Francisco, which. As many know as a very historically like queer city, there's a lot of queer life and gay liberation movement. A lot was happening there simultaneously when Stonewall was happening in New York.

And so it has that legacy. And I, I moved and made friends with a much more queer circle and started to like go out wearing makeup and heels and met drag queens for the first time and was, [00:18:00] you know, like, I don't think I'm really into this, or I don't know if I even wanna watch these shows, which. Had this like deconstructing process that needed to happen from my upbringing of like what it means to be an L G B T person.

What gender and gender expression looks like, what's normal behavior and what I wanted, right. I these, yeah. Things that were tied up in that and I, you know, when I came out, one of the messages that I got from my family, um, Was like ultimately it's okay to be gay, but don't be quote that gay that's over the top, throwing it in someone's face, marching in the parades, wearing women's clothes.

These are the verbatim things that. Which now we joke about because I'm like, well, I did all of that. Mm-hmm. So I, I did exactly what I was told not to.

Julie Harris Oliver: You can be gay just don't be yourself at all.

Blake Mitchell: Right? Yeah. And don't make it. And it should never make anyone else uncomfortable, right? Yeah. Just it, it, which is the primary thing, which I thankfully unpacked and moved on from over time, but that was still stuck [00:19:00] in my brain.

And so I think when I, I got to San Francisco and realized like, oh. Community of people who, many of them have left those places back home and said, I'm not living that way. I'm living. For me, it took me some time to sort of de thaw, I would say, but as I did, I just revealed this beautiful part of me that I still am, you know, I feel like exploring and learning, and I'm so grateful that happened because I, I joke that I think Mary Lou Pearl was always there.

She's not some different entity. She's an extension of Blake. It's just that. She was so repressed and pushed down because of where I grew up, that coming to a place like SF really allowed that to come out. And you know, it, it's been a beautiful journey. I started performing in 2017 again, like I. Got to know drag performers in San Francisco and the Queen who became my, what we call drag mother.

So you're like sort of adopted, uh, drag parent who teaches you how to do it and gets you booked and all of that. Uh, Suga is her name and she taught me the ropes and got me [00:20:00] started and I thought, okay, well maybe I'll try once doing a show in this little dive bar. No one will ever see it. It'll be funny and a fun story.

And then I performed. Every month, multi times a month for the next four years until the pandemic hit. So it just sort of like became this thing that, you know, over time became such a critical part of my experience at the city. And you know, and along the way I was, as I was mentioning, learned so much about my own gender and gender expression.

And I think ultimately that sort of crack was the crack in the foundation that allowed me to explore my identity as a non-binary person as well. But, It's been a really cool journey and I would say, I mean, we can get more into sort of like what I'm up to these days, but I would say, you know, as I progressed, uh, a friend said something to me that really resonated, which was, it's amazing if, if performing is your focus and that's what you want.

It's just like the element of being on stage and entertaining people. But there's an opportunity when you have the spotlight on you, whether it be on stage or online to say something that matters and, and talk about things that [00:21:00] matter. And I think that. Really stuck with me and has challenged me as I've, you know, sort of grown over time and grown my online presence to really try to, as we said at the top of the call, like speak truth to power and speak truth to some of these things that are being so misconstrued these days, especially as it relates to young queer people who I think often.

Getting the, having some of the toughest time cuz they don't have the agency to always like, navigate out of the situation they're in. Um, and or feeling a lot of hopelessness. So that has really sort of pushed me to continue this work in different ways over the years.

Julie Harris Oliver: How did you come to the name Mary Lou Pearl?

Blake Mitchell: It's an amalgamation of a few things. I, um, many drag performers have like a punny name that has some secondary, you know, as an entendre of entendre,

Julie Harris Oliver: like Rhonda Sandis,

Blake Mitchell: Rhonda San. Yeah, exactly. There's so many. Also for anyone listening, if you haven't, uh, discovered the Instagram page, Republicans, which is a site that makes drag queens out of like the likeness of conservative [00:22:00] politicians using ai.

It's hysterical. And their names like that. It'll be like Rhonda Santis or something like that. So it's a fun little thing to look up, um, after this. But Mary Lou was my neighbor growing up next door, neighbor, and. Southern woman who helped care for me when I was little. My mom's name is also Mary, so there was like a sort of a double tie in there.

And I, I loved the southern name of like a, you know, Mary Beth, Mary Lou, Sarah Ann, like whatever. Felt very southern. And then my dad's mom who grew up in central Mississippi. She always wore this strand of pearls that now my mom has inherited. And my sister and I fight over who gets it, but I tell her they're mine because I literally named my drag persona after them.

Um, but those like pearls were just like so important to gran. And she, having grown up very, very poor without a lot of means, like it meant a lot to her that when she was able to afford and she wore them every day. And so I said that together one time. Mary Lou Pearl, I was just like running through names with a friend and I was like, that's it, that's it, that's it.

And I [00:23:00] don't know why it clicked. That's, that's it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now let's talk about the different types of drag performance. Like I imagine the drag performance that happens in a bar may be different from a drag queen story time in a library.

Blake Mitchell: Absolutely. Yeah. It's a super important distinction I think for a lot of the conversation happening today, because I think.

Very often folks attacking drag performers will pull up these, you know, clips from a drag performance in the club and say, see, this is not something that kids should ever be looking at. And many of them it's not. That's why they're at an 18 or 21 and up club. Right? Yeah. And it was an adult, for an adult audience, very much that you wouldn't take your kids always to an R rated or NC 17 film, right?

They're for a specific audience in a time and place. And so many of those club performances are a bit more crass. They're, you know, Very often dance lip sync based, sometimes comedy hosting, kind of a burlesque feel to some of them as well, if you've been to a burlesque show. But on the flip side is like when there are performances or events [00:24:00] with kids, like the drag queen story hours, which I've done in the past as well, it's just.

Someone in a costume reading a book to kids and relating to them. And to be honest, kids, like even little kids who don't really have strong language skills, just immediately light up when they see a drag performer cuz the makeup is big and the costume is big. And it's, I, I realized one time a friend was like, will you look sort of like a cartoon character?

Or like, yeah, I was gonna say right, because you're just so overblown and the hair is big and their sequence, it's just like over. And so they sort of. Doe-eyed and like, kind of a little like, you know, overwhelmed by all of it, but, you know, it's, it's fun and playful. And I did some virtual, uh, drag queen story hours during the pandemic for parents who had their kids at home.

Uh, when I was working at Google, I would take part of the day and sign on and drag and, and Googlers would bring their kids on to just like have a moment to see and I would read and they'd go into the kitchen and be doing something in the background while the kids like glue to the computer screen watching.

It's very innocent and. I also do at [00:25:00] the, I work at an L G B T summer camp in the summertime where there's direct programming and that also is very tailored for a more junior audience where it's all about like, if kids want to and choose to opt in and participate, then they, you know, can come and just say like, Hey, heres some different ways you could like, put on makeup or try that, or if you wanna try on costumes that's here, and then we'll, you know, let you kind of like show off to the other people.

It's, it's honestly like, you know, when I was a kid, we would go play. Dress up or something and play games or something in that way, it's not too different. It's just that for them, especially for young queer people who are exploring maybe their own identity, there's an element of like feeling out what feels good or right to them.

But yeah, to your, you know, original question. All of it is scaled to the audience, much like film or television would be too, right? We put ratings and have specific spaces where people access and others don't, and the club drag shows are not what is happening with young people. Now,

Julie Harris Oliver: I know a lot of the language right now is that drag is grooming and that if you're doing it at a summer camp for [00:26:00] children, I can see people saying that that is definitely grooming Well, how would you respond to that before I start launching into statistics of who's actually grooming in this world?

Go ahead.

Blake Mitchell: Yeah. Well, I'll leave the stats to you then. I was gonna start there, but I, you know, we, no

Julie Harris Oliver: do, I don't have them. I just, yeah. I just know it's, you know, straight white guys and clergy doing the grooming.

Blake Mitchell: Exactly. That's the short of it is like when you look at statistics of what's actually happening.

It is, and not to, uh, and by any means, to mean anyone in a religious position of power. But that is often, those are often the people, sports coaches, uh, who are taking advantage of their position of power because it's not like, A drag queen who meets a kid at a story hour is all of a sudden convincing them that they should be queer, act a certain way, like for really talking about what grooming is.

It's, it's. There's like a built relationship and trust that then it's like, you know, over time you're like tricking or bringing someone in and that's just not, there's no evidence that that's happening at any sort of significant number with drag performers or group people, [00:27:00] and it's absolutely not what is, what is happening at this camp.

I mean, if we think about the kids that we interact with and that I get to work with there, number one, their parents or families or caregivers have opted for them to go to an L G B T summer camp and either they come on a scholarship or they've paid, they've brought them there and dropped them off. Once they have arrived, they have a huge array of activities they can choose to participate in.

So drag is one of them, but they could also go hiking. They could do swimming, they could do poetry or ukulele. We have a puppetry class. Like there's just all sorts of things. They're fun that they could participate in. I

Julie Harris Oliver: would think it's mostly about they can go to camp and feel safe.

Blake Mitchell: Exactly, and it's, it's a space where they don't have to explain themselves or question or feel like they have to be in defense mode.

They can just be themself. And for some of them, they want to come check out drag. And so if they make it, make their way to my workshop, start off and talk through history, cultural context, what it looks like, different examples of drag, and then it's kind of like, what do you wanna make of it? For some of them, they try on the heels or they try putting on [00:28:00] makeup and they're like, Nope, that's not for me, or I don't wanna be on stage.

And so then we're like, well, you can help with lights, you could do tech, you could, you know, just help me with the logistical piece and be behind the scenes. And that's great for the kids who do choose to do it. It's about them sort of exploring what works for them. And I think what's so sad about the narrative is like, to your point, it's very often like, Oh, queer people and drag performers are using this to trick and they want to groom young people and and convince them to be queer in some way.

And actually, yeah. What's really happening is there are kids who are, yeah. Can you do that number one? No. But also like, what it really is, is it's young people who are dealing with a really, really tough world right now where it's hard for them to just exist and just to be themselves coming somewhere where they feel.

Fully affirmed and supported and getting to just play and explore with no judgment, right? It's like getting to try stuff on and say, this feels good, or this doesn't, or just feel free and not have to contort themselves into like their, you know, these [00:29:00] environments that don't fit for them back home. And seeing the joy and affirmation that that brings to them is so, Beautiful.

I mean, I had one, uh, one of my campers who I'll say was a bit of a, a tough one at times to work with, and they were always never quite prepared. Last minute, everything in like the day of the final performance. They came to me and were like, Blake, I need help with my makeup. They were addressing up as a drag king, and they're like, can you put on some like makeup to give me like a fake beard or something?

And I was like, well, we're, we're like literally walking out the door, but gimme, yeah, two minutes. I'll do what I can. I put it on, give them the mirror and they just start sobbing immediately. I was like, oh no, like what now? Like what's happening? And they just said, Just seeing myself with this facial hair and the makeup and like, I feel I've never felt more like right in my own body.

Like this feels so affirming and I just thank you for like doing that. And so it's about not trying to con like make them something they're not. It's allowing them the space to be what they already are, but [00:30:00] their home environment doesn't always allow. So it is sad that it, it's so misconstrued, but drag truly is such a beautiful, I think, tool for folks to just.

Play and have fun and explore themselves if they want to. But again, no one's forcing them to do that.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think the thing that probably needs to gain acceptance is the kids are already L G B, lgbtq. Yeah. And you can't do anything to make them that way.

Blake Mitchell: Absolutely. Yeah. It's not that. I mean, and you see over and over how much people, when their kids come out, try to change them or make them different and.

What that typically does is it just pushes them away or they have to run off to become themselves, or they, you know, are just unhappy. But there's not like anything that is done to them at a certain point that's like triggering this. It's, it's not about them like being indoctrinated, it's just them coming into who they're meant to be.

Julie Harris Oliver: Would you say you have known any adults who had the agenda of making kids gay?

Blake Mitchell: No. I mean, the, it just, it, it honestly [00:31:00] sounds wild to even think about. I, I joke that like straight people seem to be doing a well enough job of producing gay people. I don't need to go create more somehow recruiting, recruit anybody.

Like they, we keep showing up in straight families. So does that happen? There's many, yeah. And of course there's many, I don't mean to say that's the only way that kids come to be. Right. There's many different ways. Through the joy, the incredible progress and like fertility treatment and things like that that kids can be born or adopted.

But I all that to say like we've always been here and I think another like misnomer that has come up is like, well, all this queer identity is just a fab. Like all of a sudden so many people are saying they're trans and non-binary or. Use they them pronouns and like that this wasn't the case. Like you all are just, this is a fat, like a Gen Z fat that you're all hopping onto.

And it's like that's nonsense. Like we've seen over, over time at Ebb and Flow how out people are given the society and the context. But you know, through many different civilizations and cultures. In the Western world and the eastern world, like there have been queer people, and to [00:32:00] be honest, you know, in indigenous culture and especially in the East, non-binary and trans people were revered often in, in the cultures that the indigenous people in the United States called it Two-Spirit is what they, what we would call non-binary like folks that held both gender.

You know, men and women together and were more powerful cause of that. But because society had started to shift, I think in a more progressive way with marriage equality, passing and more progress in terms of legislation, we, I think we saw the condition shift and so more people started, have started to come out and be more public.

And feel like they can be themselves. And I think that's why the backlash happens again. It's like we make progress. People start to see the power and the progress and get scared or freaked out and it whips the other direction. But it's not like it's new. We've always been here. It's just, it's changed in terms of us feeling like there's more space for us to, to be out and be ourselves and have language around what that, what that means.

Julie Harris Oliver: Should we talk a little bit about the legislation sweep in the country?

Blake Mitchell: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. As part of my consulting work, I, uh, get asked to [00:33:00] review different corporations copy and things, especially around Pride Month from an LGBTQ perspective. And I was editing something today, uh, this morning that was, uh, talking about, I think it was an article from February that said A C L U saying 120 anti L G B T bills have been introduced across the us.

And I was like, I'm nervous to look up the current number, but I need to correct this. And so I did. And it's five now, just in the last six. 500 this legislative session in the United States. And

Julie Harris Oliver: why? Like why? I just like what's it to ya?

Blake Mitchell: I mean, I'm not a political analyst, but I will say from my perspective and um, did work on the last midterm election in Atlanta and I, you know, my perception is that the right optin uses these friend issues around identity and sort of this guys thing of like protecting tradition and family as a way to rally a more like, Radical conservative base, um, and distract from the real issues I think that are [00:34:00] impacting people today.

And so we hear all this rhetoric that we've talked a lot about already about threat to children of drag performers and them being indoctrinated. But we all know the statistics or maybe we don't, but we started to hear now the real number one thing that's killing children in the United States is gun violence.

But they don't wanna talk about that or make any changes to protect kids.

Julie Harris Oliver: That John Stewart clip was very powerful. Go look that up.

Blake Mitchell: Exactly. If you haven't, that is a, it's give you some good talking points if you get in a discussion with, uh, people about this. But that is the number one threat to kids in the United States right now is gun violence and shootings and schools and communities, but, Because I think of gun lobbies and NRA and other institutions, they're not making change there, so they need to distract people and pick somewhere else.

I think for a while in politics we, there was Roe v. Wade was, uh, overturned or, or rolled back and, uh, maybe abortion wasn't an issue that they thought in the midterms would be more polarizing or, or might galvanized people in a bigger way. It didn't, in many ways, for them it actually is like many people, [00:35:00] Most people, the majority are opposed to it being overturned.

And so I think their focus had to, they had something else. I mean, it's a's. Republicans for decades and decades of weaponizing identity. We saw it all the way back to like the war on drugs and these sort of guys like racial undertones that got people afraid of crime in cities and, and, and voting in certain ways.

And I think unfortunately, the current target is queer people, and I would say largely transgender people, transgender kids. And then drag queens as an extension of that. And because I think most people, many people don't know, can't make the distinctions that we made in this call. And so it's just this sort of unknown thing that feels scary and they've tried to equate to being a threat to a traditional family when there's no threat.

We're not coming after anybody. We're just trying to exist. Right? Yeah. Trying to live, I want, I want these kids to grow up, period. And we, period. That's it. Like just to have, be happy, healthy, and live because. There's so much, so many issues with mental health and self-harm of, of [00:36:00] queer youth who feel hopeless.

And we've seen that spike even more in the statistics that like the organizations like the Trevor Project put together around mental health and queer youth. And it's just devastating that these political tactics, they're not only misguided and, but they're harming people actively. And hopefully we, we get enough critical, massive understanding and progress that.

That moves on, but it's just sick that that continues to be a tactic and that it harms so many people across different communities right now, the LGBT community over time as that happens. There was,

Julie Harris Oliver: I saw yesterday, I wish I remembered her name or her position, but she was speaking about cuz here in Los Los Angeles, north Hollywood School was going to do an assembly about pride and protesters showed up.

Someone, uh, I think they put their trans teacher on leave, like all kinds of shenanigans. And an administrator in that school gave a speech that was so powerful and so beautiful and made me think like, okay, PE people are in charge, who are gonna be able to handle this? And she was like, all of the [00:37:00] shenanigans surrounding this, you've just made, all the queer kids in this school know that they're not safe here.

Like good job. The whole talk is about protecting the children and saving the children and it, and, and in fact, it's doing the opposite, making people feel unsafe.

Blake Mitchell: Yeah. With many of these topics and issues, like, it again is framed as like wanting to help children or protect them, but to your point, it just makes them feel less safe or question their space in society or if they even are welcome and so it actually is harming them as the ultimate outcome.

To kind of tie together a couple threads of what we were talking about. I think those protests of these events and the threats and the legislation and all of that are disheartening and, and discouraging. But I think like the ultimate outcome is they do want to silence us or intimidate us into not living existing doing the things that we need to do.

And honestly, it, it really just galvanizes me to push harder, I think, and continue to find ways to support young, queer people, um, and can continue the work of the nonprofit, the. Lgt Summer can't break trails that I work with because, you know, at the end of the day, like I've said a [00:38:00] few minutes ago, just, I just want these kids to be able to grow up and know that they're loved and supported.

And there's so many messages to the contrary right now that I think we have to work double time to make sure they hear the truth and also

Julie Harris Oliver: that they can have happy lives and they can have families and they can have all the things that straight people have.

Blake Mitchell: Exactly. Yeah. I, I mean, I remember I came out first as gay when I was 15.

And I remember thinking like, well, I'm choosing at this point to, yeah, not have a family, never get married, you know, not be able to be a part of the church. Like all these things. And I, I just over time seeing how like, this is not some like, foreclosing on any sort of life. Like of course we get to choose.

What we want. And maybe some of those things don't fit for us, but like if you want all of that, you can have it. It's just, it's just who you love or how you identify in your skin, right? But people I think want you to believe that it's some sort of like death sentence if you're come out as queer and that your life's gonna be terrible and.

It's not. And if it is, it's probably because they're making it that way, not cause it has anything to do with actually identifying that way.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. And I, I think [00:39:00] that's probably really hard to see if you are, you know, brought up in a community where everyone you're surrounded with, you know, that's the norms of your dominant culture.

Absolutely. What are some other myths that are important for us to unpack?

Blake Mitchell: I guess for parents to, sometimes they feel like they did something wrong or this was like a, a result of, I remember all these messages about like, well, maybe you know, someone's dad is too absent or mom is overbearing, and then you, you know, whatever thing, like somehow that influenced sexual orientation or gender identity.

And again, it's just like who someone is. Right? I think also that, you know, one thing that can maybe is less of a like misunderstanding, but just something that I would, I felt sometimes and would raise is like, I think it feels hopeless sometimes to do anything because this has been so sweeping and overwhelming at the rate at which, you know, these laws are passed and things have like come to be, um, that it just feels like there's nothing we can do.

And I think that. We all have to play [00:40:00] our small part. And so for some people that's going down to their capital and protesting and being very present in an agitator in a real way. Not everyone can do that or feel safe too. So it's also just like educating yourself on these issues and understanding how you can support the l g BT people in your life.

It's. Speaking with your vote and voting for people and local elections especially who are going to like defend and protect and donating. Like there's just so many different like ways I think to challenge things that it's not hopeless that like we see over time. There are these sort of like moments of where we sort of take a couple steps back and there's a lot of pushback when.

There's been progress, but I think the arc of, you know, justices long MLK used to say, and we need to be thoughtful that like we just have to continue to work and push and it's not dire by any means. It's just a tough moment.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yes. It was striking to me just watching these legislative sessions and so many people telling their stories and telling the nuance and telling how these, how these bills [00:41:00] would be harmful and.

In the face of all that evidence, still passing the bills, like it's so unfathomable to me and, and yet it's really happening.

Blake Mitchell: Another misunderstanding sometimes that people have around like queer trans identity that I think is important when we're talking about queer youth and legislation to raise is that many people and many of the, a lot of the rhetoric that the right has pushed is that surgeons are doing procedures and like.

Gender surgeries on like young children, which is not true, and they're by and large. If a kid is undergoing gender affirming care from a physician, it's largely hormone blockers, which just slows puberty while they figure out how they identify or what feels right to them, which is all reversible. There's sometimes, if it's taken at certain developmental stages that.

It can be some nuance, but I would say in general, like you can stop taking it and just continue to progress, you know, as in whatever way your body is going. But it also allows for time for families to slow down and say like, okay, you may be thinking about this, but let's take [00:42:00] some time to consider. And then if in a few years we're sure that you do wanna like start to socially transition or transition through medical care once you're.

Of an appropriate age, you can start to take, um, H r T or hormone replacement therapy and then down the road, once folks are older, perhaps undergo gender affirming surgery. But I think there's this like idea and, and my dad, who's a physician also asked me, like, with the camp, like, can you help me understand, like I'm, I'm reading or I, I'm seeing things about like the surgeries happening on young kids and that that is, uh, really, really not true.

There are even laws being passed in states. To ban that when it's not happening. Like there's no medical professional conducting those procedures for enough kids under 18. And so it's like this again, is not actually changing anything that's actually going on in practice. It's just a tactic and, and by and large, like when kids are undergoing that, it much more nuanced.

And I guess I would just like into that thought was saying that like all the major medical organizations and collections of physicians in the United States, Agree that that [00:43:00] type of care is appropriate and despite that laws continuing to be passed, blocking it and restricting parents for making these decisions for their own families with healthcare providers in a way that works for them, which is just so frustrating to see when the actual people who know and done their research say like, we should be allowing families to make these decisions with for themselves.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, and I don't know how you get to be, especially right now my age and not know many people with trans children and just. No one is rushing into treatment. No. I mean, everybody is rushing into, let's understand it, let's evaluate it. Let's make sure we're getting the best possible care for my child. No one is just first of all, talking their kid into changing their gender and then secondly, doing radical things to make it happen.

It's, it's just not a thing, and it's the same. I mean, it's the same legislators who are trying to, trying to do reproductive health. I mean, it's, mm-hmm. It's absurd. It's absurd. It's the same people who are talking about post-birth abortion. It's

Blake Mitchell: nonsense. Right. [00:44:00] That's not happening. None of it's based in truth or fact.

Yeah. Uh, there are very little of It is right. Again, it's just a scare tactic. Now

Julie Harris Oliver: going back to the drag of it all, I wanted to rewind 45 minutes and you talked about your, was it drag mother? Was that the term? Mm-hmm. Showing you the ropes. I'm curious. Yeah. What are the ropes?

Blake Mitchell: Well, it's, Dolly Parton says it costs a lot to look this cheap.

It takes a while, a lot of work to get into the look. Um, which is always funny for people when they're like around me when I'm. In process, but I would say foundationally, it's like the makeup technique and how to use different makeup to reshape your face and, and create the illusion or the look that you want on top of that, in terms of like just the physical transformation, it's costuming.

Very often, uh, people are using hip pads, breast plates, cinching here, tucking a bit here, cinching here. Just sort of like. However, you're sort of adapting to like look a bit different or, or usually build this like bigger than life personality, right? That kinda accentuating different things. And so all of [00:45:00] that is something that's usually taught or people like can show you how to do.

And then from there it's like how do you, if you don't know how to edit music, how do you edit the musical track? How do you like what? How does, what does the choreography look like? How do you get booked at a different clever bar? Um, who are the people in town to get to know, like all those little things, the tricks of the trade that you pick as you go, um, is something you would typically like tap your drag mom to ask about.

Julie Harris Oliver: And is it mostly performing as, you know, music artists?

Blake Mitchell: I would say yeah. A lot of people do impersonation. Some people like pick a persona and like sort of do his, that I, um, a lot of mine. Like classic divas. I'm a big share fan. I love country music. I've done Dolly Drag, I've done Shania Twain Drag, uh, with like the leopard print look from the, that don't impress me much video if folks are country fans like me and know that iconic look, that was like a childhood favorite that I got to recreate.

So it depends. But yeah, very often it's doing like lip sync to different artists and sort of like paying homage to them.

Julie Harris Oliver: And we talked a little bit [00:46:00] before we were doing this podcast about how, you know, you really came into your own in San Francisco and Los Angeles and, but you've been returning to the South and thinking about making your home there knowing that you could make more of a difference there.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Blake Mitchell: Yeah, so at the point where I felt like ready for my chapter at Google to wrap as I was sort of considering next steps, you know, I think often the universe gives us little like. Signals or nudges. And I, um, I remember sort of having this thought and then the same day I opened Instagram and Stacey Abrams announced that she was running it for governor in Georgia again.

And I've been a longtime follower and fan of hers and her work in the south and in around voting rights and access, and I thought, Dang. Wouldn't that be a cool thing to do if I left Google? Yeah. And lo and behold, a year later, uh, I was in the throes of things working on that campaign and in Georgia, many steps to get there and a lot of help from people.

But yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: How do you get a job on a campaign? [00:47:00]

Blake Mitchell: Oh, you, you hustle everyone in your network trying to find a way in. I guess. I ultimately, I had a friend who after school, had gone to work for Elizabeth Warren and then was working for Raphael Warnock, the senator from Georgia, who just was reelected. Thank goodness.

Thank goodness. Oh my word. What a cliffhanger that was. But he, he, I talked with his, that campaign a bit and then he connected me, um, as well with Stacy's campaign. But it ended up being through the random way of like, network. A friend from San Francisco went to college with her chief of staff and so, um, I got linked up.

But to be honest, I talked to them months before I moved back. But they were like, great, you seem great. We'd love to work with you, but like, We're not, we only hire when you can start, like right now because everything changes, you know, immediately. So reach out when you're moving back. And, um, I did a couple weeks before I decided to just go back to Georgia regardless and figure it out when I got there.

And I ended up signing an offer five days before I moved. So it was through, you know, some [00:48:00] friends who were tapped into that world. And again, I would've come back and like scrubbed the floors in the headquarters if they wanted me to, or like volunteered. Like I was just wanting to be involved. Any, anything from Stacy Abrams?

Literally anything like I would, would've done anything. I'm really grateful I got to, I ended up doing an operations role for her field team and doing a lot of the LGBT outreach and planning around Pride in Atlanta, which happens in October. So it was an amazing experience, but. That was sort of my first feeling of like, hey, there's some really cool things happening in the south and a lot of progress in Georgia has become really a hot button political state in terms of it's, you know, become truly purple in terms of the electorate and changed pretty quickly.

I think a lot of due to the work I think that Stacy and team have done to get more people registered and involved in the process. But you know, I thought at first I would go and then move back to California and when I got back I. You know, with some time to sort of decompress despite the, her loss was really interested in, okay, there's a lot happening here and I [00:49:00] feel ready at a place in, you know, of feeling steady and good in my own identity and where I'm at to sort of return and try and be a part of that.

And I feel, you know, particularly drawn to supporting queer communities, but I think there's many different. Causes and things that are happening right now that are really interesting. And so I've, you know, made the decision to move back to Georgia and be there permanently. And in working with the summer camp that I've been at Brave Trails to help with some expansion to the South in the coming years and hopefully be a small part of this progress, um, happening in the South.

And I think. Georgia does provide an interesting opportunity because legislatively has not been as tough for queer people. It provides a bit of a, a haven, and Atlanta certainly is a very progressive city with a lot of queer people living there and a lot of like, support from bigger like corporate organizations.

So I'm really excited. Um, I was nervous given what I shared about my upbringing, about going back. Yeah. Um, and my therapist said something to me that I will never, ever forget as I was thinking about it. He said, you are not the same person that you were when you left. Georgia is not the same [00:50:00] state that it was when you left.

And so go reintroduce yourself and see how it feels and maybe you'll be surprised. And I was, and um, I'm really. Excited to grow there in this next chapter, to be there and, you know, honestly, just to get to know the already incredible people on the ground doing work. And it's been really neat to see all the organizations that already exist, both in, in and outta the political sphere.

And there's actually a really beautiful overlap between the activists and nonprofit community and drag performers there who I've gotten to know because so many of us are tapped in different ways and are in the ways we wanna support our, our community. So I'm excited, excited about this next chapter.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm excited for you. And there was a time when, cause you know, so much of Hollywood has gone there and there's so much production work there. It's really become like the second hub. Mm-hmm. I'm sure there are times of the year where it's the first hub, but when, uh, I think it was the bathroom laws came down, That, that was Georgia, right?

Yep. And Hollywood is really talking about, do we pull out of Georgia? You know, it's, it's [00:51:00] not, it's not safe for people and we don't agree with all that. And Stacey Abras herself made a plea to a lot of the companies saying, please don't pull your money out. There's so many people here that still that need your help, that need your votes.

My understanding is she made a really personal plea to have the Hollywood studios not pull out and try to help on the ground. So it sounds like perhaps some of that is happening.

Blake Mitchell: Absolutely. Yeah, I remember that actually. And I, I remember thinking like, you know, I was still in California at the time, being like, wow, Georgia's such a complicated place and sometimes embarrassing.

We think we've made it forward and stuff like this will happen. But it is actually really, I think, uh, beneficial to progress that there are, um, Like a lot of, you know, Hollywood organizations and folks doing film production there and a lot of money, obviously a lot of also big corporations that have sway in terms of like, hey, you know, the Deltas and Coca-Colas and companies like that, that have been there a long time, that have like a bit of an influence.

Um, but I think Stacy's point is, was really [00:52:00] good and true and that. You know, there is this shift happening where the folks who've controlled, you know, the libras of power in Georgia and the South are slowly getting, I think, sort of phased out. And I think they're gripping even tighter and doing things to try and disenfranchise people and keep them out because they see the electorate shifting.

And I think to her point, there's a whole new generation of people stepping in. And there's also folks who've just never felt like they had a place in the system and the electric electoral like system and, and their voices didn't matter who. She and others have really like re enfranchised and helped them to understand like it does matter.

And if we all show up in, in collective, we can elect two democratic senators, uh, and send them to DC from Georgia and, and, and have that influence and flip the Senate as we did in 20. I think that's really re-energized folks to see that they do have a part to play. But certainly, yeah, having, uh, many of our LA friends kind of relocating out to Georgia certainly has helped with that progressive influence.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, I wanna start a campaign and I can't remember if I've said this on the podcast before or not, but go home to vote. Yeah. [00:53:00] If everyone from the cities went back to where they came from vote, how different would our electoral map look?

Blake Mitchell: Yeah. I had this conversation this morning with a friend. We went on a a little hike and we were saying like, so many of us flee the place we grew up cuz we don't feel like we fit there.

And there's often this arc that I feel like I'm in right now where we then return. Once we feel like we've done the work and growing that we need to, to then be a part of like trying to move it forward and give back maybe.

I think you're right there. You know, there's so much, there's, uh, I, I don't fault anybody for going to a more progressive place or being on the coast cause I did it right. And I, it was really, really transformative to me as I shared in our time today. But I think like when you can, if you can, there's so much opportunity and these places, I, you know, I don't want to be misunderstood.

They don't need to be saved. Right. We don't need to go back and save these communities. Like, there's a lot of really incredible resilient people who've been on the ground for decades fighting the fight day in and day out. But they need support. They need resources. They need more of us to show [00:54:00] up. And so I think even if it's from afar, we can think of how to continue to.

Support that work and, and support small organizations doing it on the ground. I think the big groups like A C L U and Trevor Project and these big national, um, H R C like groups are really important, but they are also pretty well funded. Often I think finding the small grassroots groups that are on the ground doing it and, and providing support in real time are so important because they're really helping impact.

One on one and any way we can and give that back to the places that we grew up and help people who are less fortunate than ourselves, I think is always really, really good.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I think it takes, what I'm hearing from you is really your journey of coming from a place of really being oppressed to standing in your own power and, and knowing who you are and knowing what, what you can bring.

And you're not, I think as a person, you're probably not as vulnerable to what that church thinks, you know?

Blake Mitchell: Yeah, exactly. And you know, there is so much [00:55:00] privilege in my story of being able to get out and go somewhere else and find an environment that felt supportive and affirming to me. I know not others can do that, but with that I certainly feel a push.

And for me, I would say probably a personal obligation to then find a way to like pay that forward. You know, my chosen way right now is to try and uplift and support young, queer people and, um, you know, as I mentioned, also help out in the electoral process. I. Yeah, I think like coming back I'm like, I know who I am now.

Like I was definitely less sure and scared and uncertain at that time when those messages were being portrayed, but I don't feel like those people have power over me anymore. And alternatively, like I feel able to sort of cut through that noise and get to others who maybe need to hear a different perspective as well, who may be hearing a lot of the same things that I did and are just like unsure how to progress or what future they can even have.

I mean, this is the work, right? Yes. And it's, it can be exhausting, but also very energizing. And I think sometimes when it feels so [00:56:00] overwhelming and big and like, how do we tackle this behemoth of law that are being introduced? I think I, you know, if I enc, I encourage my team on the campaign and I encourage friends, or even people I work with at the camp, like just think about each day.

How you can show up for the people in your day-to-day life and make a difference for them. Be kind, you know, and, and pass on, you know, good things in that way cuz that that often is all, all we have control over it, but it makes a difference.

Julie Harris Oliver: That feels like a good place to stop. Blake Mitchell, thank you so much for being on the other 50%.

Blake Mitchell: Thank you so much for having me.

Julie Harris Oliver: You have been listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver, thank you to Blake Mitchell for the conversation and for sharing their story. Go look at Mary Lou Pearl's Instagram if you want a treat. There is the sweetest video of Mary Lou Pearl dressing Blake's father in drag, and it is beautiful to witness the love and the support of the father.

Special thanks to Jay Rowe, Dani Rosner, [00:57:00] and Alison McQuaid for the music. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcast and rate and leave a review. If you have a company you would like to be a sponsor, please reach out. You can find me in my work at julieharrisoliver.com. If you're looking for simple, yet effective tools to bring to your production or even just want some help in starting to talk about it, gimme a call.

I'd love to work with you. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

EP 232: Kiah Amara

Julie Harris Oliver: Kiah Amara, welcome to the other 50%.

Kiah Amara: Thank you. Hello.

Julie Harris Oliver: Hello. So I wanna start with like you and your origin story.

How did you get into the business and what are all the things that you do?

Kiah Amara: Yeah, so I, I always really love talking about this because I have such a long, a long history in disability space and in art space. So, and a long history of being disabled, even though I didn't always identify as disabled. So my sort of original point of origin is actually from a group called Penguin Project which is a community theater like companion program.

So being from the rural Midwest, of course community theater is a big thing. Penguin Project started in Illinois in Peoria, and I was part of the DeKalb group, the DeKalb Sycamore group. That was sort of the second iteration of this. And basically what it was, was a program that was a bunch of disabled folks paired with non-disabled mentors.

Doing a musical. And the whole point is that it [00:01:00] was all the disabled folks who were all the leads and the non-disabled folks were just shadow mentors. But the thing that was really, really wonderful about the program is that it wasn't about teaching social skills to disabled folks or about teaching, you know, language or anything like that.

Obviously being in theater is, is great for many reasons. But this program, I was actually in it as a non-disabled mentor. And through the program we would have every week something where the mentors would go and go, okay, here's how you lead a blind person, or Here's how braille works, or Here's how to have a conversation with somebody who's nonverbal.

So it was really just all about the mentors being in a space of, hey, these are new, new people, new communication styles, new engaging with environment styles that you might not be familiar with or comfortable with. So we're just gonna teach you how to be comfortable with everything and how to get along with everybody.

And that was so reversed cause this was 2009 as well. Yeah. So that was so reversed [00:02:00] of what most programs are. Cuz again, most everything was, you know, teaching disabled people how to seem less disabled in spaces so that they could fit in. And this was a space that wholly taught okay, folks who don't identify as disabled, here's how to just know everybody and see everybody in, you know, a relationship sort of way.

And that program included what was called Friendship time at the end, which was basically just time for non-disabled and disabled people to sit around and talk with one another and hang out with one another. And just be used to having conversations together. So even though I was disabled and had my disability at that time, I didn't identify as disabled.

Again, 2009 in the Midwest. I was somebody who was considered very low need. I was a dancer and got straight A's and all of that, so I was not somebody who could possibly be disabled. But that program was definitely a space where I was like, oh, these are my people. And I sort of recognized them as my people [00:03:00] before I was recognizing, you know, myself as disabled. And then I had a whole long string of things working with Penguin Project for many years. I became sort of a liaison and did a bunch of stuff in the Midwest helping other people start penguin project programs.

I did disability art with Chicago Children's Theater right out of college and then moved to New York and worked with New York City Children's Theater and did sensory friendly performances with them. And that was sort of how production accessibility started was in doing these sensory friendly performances, a lot of production accessibility comes from theater spaces.

Mm-hmm. And making theater spaces or like live shows and galleries accessible. And then moved over to film TV because I, I had always really loved film and television as an actor, and that space felt so much more inaccessible than the theater world. And then just sort of went, went from there. It's a big tumble from this really amazing, you know, volunteer experience when I was young in community theater space all the way up to, you know, things in New York City[00:04:00] and, and LA now.

So, yeah. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well that's, I love that. And I wanted to, I had some very, some questions from the very beginning of that story. First of all, what was the musical?

Kiah Amara: Oh, so what was the very first musical that we did?

There's actually a big thing with what musical comes first. In each iteration, you do the same first musical, and I can't remember what it was, I wanna say it was Annie. Annie might have been the first thing that we did. But I did a whole bunch of musicals with them, so I can't even remember at this point what, the first one that we did was. We had done Music Man.

They did Beauty in the Beast. We did Little Mermaid. But I think the first one, I think the first one was annie

Julie Harris Oliver: Classic.

Kiah Amara: Yes. A classic. And actually I do remember now because I was a mentor to two different folks, I was a mentor to the person who played Annie and I was a mentor to somebody else who was one of the orphans.

So it was super cool because I got to be there like all the time and hang out with everybody all the [00:05:00] time. So, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: And how did you hear about that that opportunity in the first place? Like what, what was, how'd you first come to, oh, I'm gonna do this, this thing.

Kiah Amara: So yeah, again, I'm from a really small town in rural Illinois.

So for our community theater space, it was sort of like, if, you know people in the local community theater space, you know, everybody in the local community theater space. So when they decided that they were gonna do the program, they just sort of sent out a notice to everybody of like, Hey, this is the thing we're doing.

This is Penguin project. Feel free to come to the onboarding and do this summer show with us. Cause they always took place. Rehearsals were all over the summer and then you do the show sort of first thing in the, in the fall and the school year. And just knew I wanted to do it right away and was, was ready to go.

A lot of folks who were part of the theater space were friends already from the community theater space in my town. So getting able, being able to do a specific show that was just, you know, not focused on us and was focused on other people who didn't get as many theater [00:06:00] opportunities in the space was super exciting. So I don't remember ever not thinking about it.

Julie Harris Oliver: So let's talk about how you got into I suppose that did lead to the advocacy work and, and kind of that evolution, but can you talk about specifically how you got into the advocacy work for film

television?

Kiah Amara: Yeah, so when I graduated and I, I went to school in Wisconsin, so I, the, the first place I lived after school was Chicago and was working with Red Kite which is a, a disability program that's a part of Chicago children's theater and was also just sort of teaching in the general, you know, Chicago school area through Chicago Children's Theater.

And there's another program called Able Ensemble in Chicago, which also does film. They do like film shorts, things like that as a part of their program, which is also a theater-based program. And so meeting all of the folks who I had met in the Chicago space, I was really interested in transitioning just from [00:07:00] theater to doing more in film and tv.

My degree in, in theater arts and musical theater. I was an actor at the time. And so I was really interested in making the space that I was largely working in, which was tv, film, commercials, that sort of stuff more accessible because I had been in the theater space and knew that I could bring everybody into the theater space and the theater space was really welcoming.

But I had found not only for myself, but for my friends that the issue in, in TV and film was sort of twofold. One, if you have a non apparent disability like me I'm also usually not particularly apparently queer to folks and not particularly apparently non-binary to folks that it became this situation where, you know, casting folks or creative people would be like, but you're not what the audience expects from disability, so I can't put you, I can't cast you in this disabled role because the audience won't get it.

Which was always very hard for me because, as I said, from Penguin [00:08:00] Project, even though I didn't identify at the time, I knew those were my people and that was my community. And that was sort of my long journey to realizing, oh, I am disabled. I am neurodiverse. That's why I feel so, you know, akin to all these people who do I already identify as disabled?

And the other piece of it being so many production spaces, we're talking about, oh, we'd love to have more disabled folks, but they have too many needs. It's too risky. It's to this, it's on and on and on. Right. Those lights, equipment. Yep. And there's a great Venn diagram image which I can't remember the name of the artist right now.

But I will, I will send it to you later. That basically just has the Venn diagram of not disabled enough to too disabled and of course not disabled enough is like, you're not allowed to be on benefits. You can't be seen as disabled. All of this. And the bottom is like the assisted suicide space. And the only thing that's the acceptable amount of disabled is inspiration porn.

And I think especially at that [00:09:00] time was really, really true in, you know, the media space of disability as well, which is like, there's one kind of disability also non apparent disability is not really a thing, and we definitely don't cast authentically for non apparent disability. And, and on and on.

Julie Harris Oliver: So, can we talk about the definitions

a bit? Because you just identified as queer, non-binary, neuro divergent. I would suspect the queer non-binary is not in the disability

category. Is that correct?

Kiah Amara: No. So it's not indivisible. So my company is Indivisible Entertainment. We very much focus on queer, TG and C, which is transgender nonconforming and disability stories.

And that's because that's how I identify. But one of the things that I, I actually give talks on this too, is that. There is so much disability crossover in so many other communities being queer, not a disability, being trans, not a disability. Obviously there are additional pieces of that when we're talking about the social model of disability, [00:10:00] right?

Which is that disability is, are you disabled by the barriers that are placed in front of you? And I think, you know, there are elements of that in a lot of different culture spaces of what are the barriers that make engaging with society disabling. Not inherently a disabled identity, though. We, we keep those things in two different places as far as communities and cultures go, but there's so much disability in, in the queer space especially neurodiversity, you know, the percentage of autistic folks who also identify as queer is like 76%.

So there's a really a close connection there a lot of the times.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. And I'm also hearing it, the, the accommodation may be the piece to focus on rather than. All the different disability categorization.

Kiah Amara: A hundred percent. And that's absolutely where we are as far as production and accessibility goes to.

It's really easy to fall into what we call compliance mindset, which is that sort of fear of the Americans with [00:11:00] Disabilities Act, fear of the ADA and fear of getting sued for not doing what the ADA requires of you. Mm-hmm. But a lot of that requires specific disability. Sometimes requires specific diagnosis, sometimes requires specific, you know, medical documentation.

And getting so much of that is not only inaccessible for a lot of intersectional reasons, it's also sometimes not safe for folks to have. So we rely a lot more on just trusting folks.

Julie Harris Oliver: Believing them when they tell you who they are?

Kiah Amara: Yeah. Which is, which is a piece of what's called access intimacy. But that piece of access intimacy is just like, You tell me what you need and I make it happen.

You don't need to prove to me why you need it. We don't need to have a fight over it. And we've found this to be really successful on production as well, because of course, those productions that wanna bring disabled folks in and then only give disabled folks what they need can create a lot of animosity.

As [00:12:00] in any workspace. You don't wanna be sitting, you know, sitting doing your job and seeing somebody being taken care of and know that you're sitting next to them on a, you know, 12 hour production day and you're not allowed to go get a drink of water. So making sure that that accessibility again, when we come into production, We send out a survey to every single person and say, tell us what you need.

You don't have to identify as disabled, you don't have to be connected with the community. Even if you are connected with the community, you don't have to tell us. You can just tell us what you need. And I think that's, that's super important in the world at large, but especially in film, tv, production,

Julie Harris Oliver: every,

everywhere and especially all our workplaces.

Yes. So it's like the I If you're really going to focus on inclusion and belonging, that means making the place accessible for everybody and helping everybody with what they need. Yes. Is what I'm hearing you say.

Kiah Amara: Yeah. I, I always laugh with D E I D E I A idea, D B I A, all of the different iterations that, you know, [00:13:00] that that space has been that I, I have told many a person, like for me, it doesn't matter until you put the A first.

Cause for me, true accessibility includes, All of those things, all of those things can fall under sort of the widest version of accessibility, which is that it doesn't, you, you can't have belonging if somebody can't get in the door. You can't have diversity if somebody can't get in the door. So the first thing you have to do is make the space accessible.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So let's talk about what does that mean, because I think people may have ideas of what accessibility means, but what does it actually mean? And you've did you create this job or you're, you're doing this job of helping sets become accessible. So let's talk about that.

Kiah Amara: So indivisible, we have a very specific framework and that framework is simplifying. So for us, we always use this sort of two sentence phrase, which is, accessibility is a state of easy engagement and accommodation is the flexibility that we [00:14:00] use to get there.

Julie Harris Oliver: Would you say, and they say that one more time.

Kiah Amara: Mm-hmm. Accessibility is a state of easy engagement and accommodation is the flexibility that we use to get there.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Say more about that.

Kiah Amara: Mm-hmm. It is so easy. Again, this compliant mindset, right? The disability umbrella is huge. It's 25% of the US population.

Even me who, you know, I've been working in this since 2009. Engaging with tons of individuals in the community, engaging with the community at large on an international scale. I don't know everything that everybody needs. I don't have a solution for every space, and I never will, because every time I meet a disabled person, even if you know it's a hundred people who all have CP Cerebral Palsy, every single one of them can have a different need.

That's even a saying for, you know, autism and ADHD. You meet [00:15:00] one person with autism. You've met one person with autism.

Julie Harris Oliver: I was about to say that, so, yeah, exactly.

Kiah Amara: So you're like, it's true across the disability community though, not just for autism or neurodiversity, but everybody has their own unique experience of disability.

And to think that you can encompass 25% of the population in any one, you know, in any one bucket.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. In any one bucket.

Kiah Amara: It is just, you know, it's, it's mind blowing to me that sometimes people think that that's even possible. So again, we were talking about like the mind, the bogging down, right?

That people get really overwhelmed with knowing the specific answers beforehand and like knowing oh A equals B, if the person comes in in a wheelchair, this is what they need and it just doesn't work that way at all. That for us, we always push people to, you know, you shouldn't be spending if you're, if you're a new producer, right?

And this is your first time working with disability community, [00:16:00] or you just wanna be more inclusive of disability in your set. A lot of times folks dive into, okay, let's go to the ada. What do I need to do? What are my legal rules? What are my very specific guidelines?

Julie Harris Oliver: Because it sounds overwhelming if you think, oh, I'm gonna have 150 people on my crew.

I have accommodate everybody's what? Where do I even start? I mean, that feels like a very simple, it has a list. I can do the checklist.

Kiah Amara: Yes, everybody always asks for the checklist. And for us, we always just start with, you just have to open a dialogue. That's really all it is. You send out an email that says, this production cares about your accessibility.

We care about this space being easy for you to engage with. Please what? Let us know what you need from us. And if you don't know, let's have a conversation and come up with a solution together. And that's really all it is, and everything else grows and builds from there. Of course, we [00:17:00] love disabled leadership because disabled folks are the ones who have spent their lifetimes figuring out accommodations for things, figuring out workarounds, figuring out how to come up with those accessibility solutions and those accommodation solutions.

It's why we only work with Disabled pacs, not only because they have the life experience to get it done. PACS are production accessibility coordinators. But the reason why we only work with disabled folks is because not only do they have the life experience to come up with those solutions, they have the community connections to know, oh, well, here's a solution that worked for a friend of mine.

Let's try that. Here's a solution that worked for a friend of a friend. Let's try that. But then they also were there to create a safe space for other disabled folks or folks with access needs to step forward and say, okay, I wasn't comfortable telling, you know, my executive producer that I have profound hearing loss on one side because I was worried that they wouldn't let me use a walkie-talkie and they wouldn't [00:18:00] hire me because they would think that I couldn't do the job.

But to you knowing that you're also disabled, I'm okay to go, Hey, here's my issue. Here's my disability. What's the solution that we can use? That's the same reason why we keep everything sort of, even if there's disclosure, we don't share disclosures, things like that. It's all just how can we be in dialogue to come up with the best possible solutions.

And again, all of the experience is still wonderful. Just like it's wonderful in any job, you know, I can come into a set and know oh, there's a temperature issue. Great. Here's three solutions for somebody who has, you know, an overheating issue. Regardless of if they have a disability, regardless of if they've told me about it,

Julie Harris Oliver: every woman in menopause would appreciate the temperature gone down a couple

matches.

Kiah Amara: Exactly. And that's, that's, that's a hundred percent. The thing is that we, we have been so focused just on disabled folks, and again, we still are as leadership and recognizing [00:19:00] that disabled folks are the ones who have been excluded from this space. But also recognizing that the whole industry just needs to shift and become more accessible in order to open that door for disabled creatives, disabled leadership, and disabled crew.

Julie Harris Oliver: So I would guess people's first instinct if they're new to this, would be, oh, we need to hire a production accessibility coordinator if I'm doing a show about people with disabilities. I'm guessing you would disagree

with that.

Kiah Amara: I would disagree with that. However, I'm not mad about it being a starting point.

And it a hundred percent is usually our starting point. It's folks who are in pre-production, just about to go into production, who are looking at their list of things going, oh, wait, wow. I actually don't know anything that's happening. I probably should have brought somebody in sooner who understands more of these, the, the details of, of how we can find solutions for the things that we're approaching.

But some of the most wonderful productions that I've been on are folks who it's not a disability themed [00:20:00] space. Maybe one of the lead creatives is disabled. And so they thought about accessibility, or it's somebody who has met me prior and was like, I just didn't know how accessibility might fit into this project.

So I wanna have a conversation about it. I wanna know what we can do. I wanna know what we can add. Again, whether you have a really small space and it's, you know, 30 people working on your short, or you have a massive series and it's a thousand people working on the project across multiple sound stages, all you have to do is remember that disabled folks are one in four, right?

25% of your space

Julie Harris Oliver: you have disabled people in your crew, you just may not know it,

Kiah Amara: right. They don't wanna disclose for you. They, there's been no reason for them to, you know, disclose that information when they're, it's likely on crew, especially for folks who are IATSE which is everybody who's sort of below the line crew.

Those folks are not used to being taken care of. They're used to being told power [00:21:00] through if Yep. They're used to being told, if you have the time to sit, you're doing your job wrong. You should be running around all the time. Which is the same reason why we have pipeline issues for disability, because so many of those entry level roles are not accessible to disabled people.

But those are the folks who we go in with a big focus on that. You're like, nobody wants to tell you they're disabled in that space because you won't hire them again. Not, not only will you not give them what what they need, you're not gonna hire them again. So there's been absolutely no reason for folks to identify as disabled.

And even for us, our data and experience has shown that when we do come into a production and we're getting folks' feedback, we start out with like 11 to 15% of folks identifying as disabled. And that percentage rises by the end of production. You have more people who are saying, oh, actually I am disabled.

Oh, actually I do identify with, you know, dyslexia or O C D or whatever it may [00:22:00] be. You know, chronic migraines, things like that, that all fall under the disability umbrella. But so many folks don't identify with the culture space because historically it has been more dangerous than helpful to do that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. And things like, I'm just thinking about the chronic migraine thing. You know, women are so conditioned to have their pain disregarded that we're just gonna work through regardless. I just heard about the UK having business accommodation for women in menopause.

Mm-hmm. So doing things like having fans on desks or having more flexibility depending on how people feel like that, that. It seems revolutionary also. Anyway. Two, kind of two tracks. I'd love to go down with you, like, I'd love to hear some like concrete accommodations that, that you help people with.

And also I wanna talk about representation on screen. So why don't we, why don't we first talk about accommodations that you, that you help people with. I'm curious, do you typically go [00:23:00] on set for the duration or for a consultation at the beginning or somewhere in between?

Kiah Amara: It can be a big swath of things.

So we're sort of in the place now where the work has progressed enough that because we've been in enough spaces in pre-production and production, folks are starting to realize, oh yeah, this would have been really useful. To think about this in development or, oh, it would've been really nice to keep you on in post and to talk about PR in marketing and what makes marketing accessible and what things reach the disability community and how does the disability community wanna be communicated with.

So now we've started doing, we're sort of expanding our timeline of a project. It used to be that we'd be brought in for, you know, a consultation in pre-production, and then we'd do a couple odd days of production. And usually it was days where there were you know, lots of disabled actors in the space, because of course, production still always think about their actors and their talent before they think about their [00:24:00] crew.

And now we've sort of expanded past that, where now we're doing our consultations in development and letting folks know in advance like, here's the things you should keep in mind. Here's the things that you wanna be aware of now that can make a big impact. Even in your audience engagement, you know, however many months or years down the line that might be for a specific project.

So that's really wonderful. Because again, it's not only we're expanding our work, but it's also people expanding their understanding of how accessibility and disability are really integrated into everything that we're doing. So I would say that's where we're at now.

It's usually, you know, a couple meetings, things like that in development. If it's a very disability heavy project, we might do more support in those sort of early stages and then on for most of pre-production and production and then a little bit of post and then again moves into the consultation in, in post and in marketing in pr, but always hoping to expand [00:25:00] that fully.

I think the thing that's really interesting now is of course pacs. So production accessibility coordinators. For Indivisible, those are specifically designed as a role that can have trainees, that can have PAs or PAAs production accessibility assistance, who work as a part of that team. And we're specifically building it as an entry point for disabled people to the space, right?

Because as I mentioned, PAs, those are really inaccessible positions because those are usually the people who are asked to run around the most, to do the most on walkies, to lift the most weight to all of these sorts of things that are not particularly accessible for a lot of different disabled folks.

So for us, we're creating a space where people can come in, have an entry level position, and also do a lot of good across all the departments. So specifically being a coordinator, [00:26:00] right? We didn't build this to be its own department. We built it to be something that integrates with every single department.

Mm-hmm. Because every department has its own connection to accessibility, whether that's wardrobe for talent or, you know, construction needs to make sure that they're building space wide enough for a wheelchair, whatever it may be. But we also always push right that so many people are bringing in disabled consultants as writers.

We're bringing in disabled consultants as consulting producers.

So Inevitable Foundation which is a nonprofit org that focuses on mid-career disabled writers, has some really wonderful tools and also some really wonderful articles, data research, all about how. Sort of folks creating different versions of writers or different versions of producers where it's, you know, they're creating a unique box in order to sort of underpay disabled folks in a lot of spaces when [00:27:00] really they should just be hiring a disabled writer.

And for our side of stuff that is, people should just be hiring a disabled producer, right? You should just be hiring a, as a producer, fun producer. Yes, as a producer. So that's sort of the space we're in now is that as folks see more and more purpose for production accessibility and sort of realize how much it's integrated into everything now our advocacy has sort of become, Great,

we would love to have a pack on your set. It seems like you have lots of needs for budgeting, for going through your scripts and making sure that you know, we always use the example of like, Did you need to choose a grass field for that? Or can it be, you know, a blacktop behind a school somewhere for that school festival?

Because one of those locations is very inaccessible and is gonna be very hard to get people around, and one of them is much more accessible. But all of that is just the creative work that a disabled producer can do. [00:28:00] And producers already have specific focuses. There are so many specialized producers.

So to bring in somebody who is a producer, who is just disabled, who has the ability to, you know, help with your line budgeting, help with your set accessibility, help with all the creative choices that will affect how accessible your space can be, is also so important, but is different from somebody who's just boots on the ground, coordinating your access, walking around set, making sure that that bathroom, you know, stays accessible and doesn't get.

10 boxes of, you know, toilet paper stacked in front of the door so that you can't get in it anymore. They're very different jobs with very different functions, and we're all here for, you know, building the careers of disabled creatives and crew.

Julie Harris Oliver: Great. Now, I've heard you talk in the past about looking at things from physical accessibility, you know, making sure that people can get around on a set and also which was new for me to hear [00:29:00] about accessibility.

Like how do you need your call sheet printed out or do you need it printed out, or how do you, the communication accessibility, can you talk a bit about that?

Kiah Amara: Yeah, so we always break this down into three pieces. When we're talking about accessibility. We talk about space, time, and communication. And that's another sort of framework for our simplification is that it's just, it's space.

Time and communication. So the communication piece of that is huge and is always the first thing that we're tackling. So when we send out our initial survey, the first piece of that survey is how do you want us to communicate with you? And that might be somebody saying, I need you to text me, or I need you to voice call me.

Or somebody who's deaf saying, dear God, don't voice call me. You can text me, or you can video call me and make sure there's ASL. So it's just all about starting that conversation around how can we, how can we listen and talk to each other in the best way that [00:30:00] works for both of us? So some of the things that happen in communication then like you mentioned with digital accessibility that's one of the first things that we usually tackle and that ask goes out in our survey because those are all free things that we can do really easily.

Again, as somebody who is a, you know, disabled producer in PAC in the Space, I already know how to do that. So if you hire me, you hire that skillset as disabled, creative or again, as production accessibility. So being able to turn something into dark mode, being able to switch something, a script that has to get printed out into a large print script.

Being able to say, okay, where do I need to go to get a braille script made? Where do I need to go in order to turn this into dyslexia accessible font, right? All of those things that are very small pieces, but can make a really big change for somebody. Sometimes that's as simple as like, oh, your email, if you can write it twice and post the second part in dyslexia accessible font.[00:31:00]

Right. It's all of those really, really tiny things that are free mm-hmm. That folks just don't think about as making a big difference. I'm a spoony, I have a chronic medical disability, so we talk a lot about spoons which is basically a measure of energy and how much energy you have to do things in a day.

And so we always just talk about all these tiny pieces are about just saving spoons. If I can make it easier for you to read this email or easier for you to read this script, then you have spoons. You have the energy to do a bunch of other things in your day that you need to do, and you're not wasting your energy trying to get around barriers that don't need to be there.

Julie Harris Oliver: What's a spoony?

Kiah Amara: So spoony is the community term for folks with chronic medical disabilities. And the term was designed because it's based on what's called spoon theory. Which again is sort of, it's a communication process that's used to describe chronic fatigue. So it's like disabled folks speaking to non-disabled folks [00:32:00] talking about chronic fatigue which is that everybody has a certain amount of spoonfuls of energy every day.

And so somebody who doesn't have a chronic medical disability or doesn't have chronic fatigue might have 10 spoons. And somebody who does, might only have five. And each task that you're trying to do in the day, depending on how complicated or simple that task is, takes a certain number of spoons.

So like eating breakfast might take one spoon and going to a doctor's appointment where you have to get an MRI might take three spoons. And if you overspend your spoons on one day, then you have even less spoons the next day. Which is a really great piece of what we talk about when we talk about time as accommodation, which is that crip time, which is the term for functioning within a time space that recognizes disability and different accessibility needs.

Julie Harris Oliver: What word did you just say?

Kiah Amara: crip time.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay.

Kiah Amara: That, [00:33:00] that's, that phrase is specifically about recognizing accessibility in how we deal with time, which recognizes spoon theory as well.

And this is why we always focus on simplifying, cuz I can use a lot of words that are culturally relevant and that means something to the culture. But really it just means how much energy do you have and how much time does that mean it takes you to do things.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm learning so much talking to you. I, I, I wish I knew about the spoony thing when I

was working in production and suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome. Mm-hmm. That explains the thing. Mm-hmm. Wow. Okay. And then so time might be the time it might take someone to get to set or the time it might take someone to do something that people don't think of. Cuz be on set in 30 seconds may not be a reasonable request of people.

Kiah Amara: Yes, absolutely. And I think the cer the super important thing about crip time too, recognizes things like New York. Working in New [00:34:00] York is a really great example of this because there are accessible buses, right? There's accessible transportation. And so everybody thinks that you can make it there in the same amount of time that it would take somebody to just walk out their door and hop on the subway and get to a location.

But most folks don't realize that only a very small percentage of the subway system in New York is actually accessible and has elevators and of that. Only a very small percentage of those elevators actually work. It's something like 25% of those elevators are down every single day.

Julie Harris Oliver: All the time.

And they're at the furthest end of the platform.

Yep. And if you're late, you can't be running between trains.

Yeah.

That all makes tons of sense.

Kiah Amara: Yep. And even if you do, you know, charter, one of the accessible buses or things like that, they're, they don't design their routes around you. So most disabled folks have to build in an extra two hours of leeway time to try and make it to their [00:35:00] location.

And they still don't have control over if that bus comes on time. So they're relying on a bunch of barriers working with them in order to make a certain schedule work. Which again, is, that's all part of the social model of disability is that, The expectation, right, is, oh, the wheelchair user, they're slow.

That's why they're here late. And you're like, no. The wheelchair users, they're late because they have access to a sixth of the transportation options that you have. And the one that you might think works the best actually takes an extra two hours and they don't have control over the driver. And also the driver just walked off the bus to go do something and they don't know what it is.

And on and on and on. So that it's all the extra time that it takes to get around those barriers and come up with creative solutions. And also the energy that it takes to come up with those creative solutions and go around those barriers.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, I'm exhausted just hearing

about it. Yes, it's, it's like, ah, it's so hard.

And also I get, just going back to language like that term crip time

doesn't feel like something I should

[00:36:00] say like that. Doesn't that, that feels like it sounds like a

derogatory term.

Kiah Amara: So the, the word Crip is obviously, it's a reclaimed word for the disability community that's based off of the term cripple.

I think much like the queer community, again, as I said, there's lots of, you know, comradery between queer community and disabled community. Much like their words in the queer community that have been reclaimed words. Disability community has that same thing. For words like crip time or crip rage.

Those are things that are terms that you can just reference. That being said, yes, you should not call anybody a Crip who hasn't self-identified that way. Yeah, you shouldn't, you know, that's very much a word as far as like using it as an identity term that's only used within the disability community. But things like crip time and Crip rage, at [00:37:00] least for me personally, I am always more than happy to hear people use those terms.

Because it's identifying again, it exists within the social model of disability. And what it's really saying is not only do you recognize this disability issue, but you also have the culture knowledge to know the disability terminology for it. And I think that's really wonderful. And cool.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. But you wouldn't wanna say like, oh, they're late. Crip time.

Kiah Amara: Like, I think it depends on your, your, your framework for that.

And again, if you are a non-disabled person, and if you are a straight, white, non-disabled person in a room full of straight, white, non-disabled leadership waiting on one, you know, one person, yeah. One disabled person to come in, it's all about your power structures, right? And if you can actually have a conversation with somebody and say, Hey, so there's actually a word for this.

There's, there's [00:38:00] a word for why this person is late all the time, and it's called crip time, and it's about all the barriers that that person has to face in order to get into this room. Then you can recognize that word in the really positive space that it is designed to occupy. Because again, you, you really have to recognize both the functional and the cultural side of that word.

Julie Harris Oliver: So context is very important.

Kiah Amara: Context is very important, yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: What is Crip rage?

Kiah Amara: So Crip rage is sort of twofold. Crip rage has to do with the anger that disabled people feel for having to deal with all the barriers in the world, right? So it sense it's specifically a rage at all the barriers.

It's a rage at ableism, it's a rage at all of those things. That's sort of, its most common use, right? It's just like crip time where you're like, it has a very cultural context [00:39:00] where you're like, it's, it's a rage against ableism that disabled people feel because we have to deal with it all the time.

The other piece of it that I really feel as Spoony and this is much more like, you know, a community held identity held thing, is that I experience Crip rage a lot when I want to do something. And my body on that day has decided too bad you can't.

Julie Harris Oliver: Enraging.

And

Kiah Amara: so, yep. It's a very specific anger that's about that or that's about, you know, disabled folks usually have a very, very high pain tolerance.

And so that, you know, one side of Crip rage being, when I'm interacting with a medical system and a doctor asks me for my pain level and I can say with a straight face, oh, it's like an eight. I'm often told, oh, it must not be because of how you're reacting. And that's a part of that sort of Crip rage space too, is I'm telling you who I am and what I am and what the experience [00:40:00] is and I'm not being listened to.

And also, you know, the personal side of it being, I'm trying to do something with my day or my body or, you know, I did wanna be at that meeting and now I've woken up and my knee's not working. Or, you know, I'm supposed to have a, a voiced interview and now my voice isn't working. So I have to either try and find an interpreter last minute or do you know?

It all spirals as well. But I think the thing that's, that's always important about it, it's all within that social model of disability where it's like, yeah, sometimes it's personal and disability related, but even with the medical, you know, my, my medical example, it's largely about the barriers that if it weren't for all those barriers, I wouldn't need to feel bad about the fact that I wanted to do this thing today and now I can't.

Or I wanted to do this, I wanted to work on this thing for my job today, and I can't. And part of that grip rage again is I can direct that anger at myself because I feel guilty, but all of that is, you know, ableism as well. So really it's this rage at, [00:41:00] you know, the ableist system that we live within.

Julie Harris Oliver: That reminded me of, I

just heard, you know, the new Michael J. Fox docu-series That's out. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. The director,

um mm-hmm. And he was talking about, one day Michael showed up and he was like, well, how are you today? And, and Michael's like, well, actually I'm in excruciating pain. And he was like, I had no idea.

He's like, well, I live with it every day and I just carry on.

He's like, what?

Kiah Amara: I think something. Have you, have you seen the film yet? I've seen, I think the first episode. So I think I, I saw, I saw it at the premiere at South by when Michael was actually there to talk as well, which was amazing. So cool to be in the same room as Michael J.

Fox. But part of that, that episode being too, that Michael's like, cuz he, he asked in the interview like, oh, why didn't you tell me? And Michael says, well, you didn't ask. And I think that's something too of accessibility at large, right? Is that anybody who has an accessibility [00:42:00] need is used to just handling it and doing what they need to do.

And I think something that's always important for folks to remember. Both on the disabled side and the non-disabled side is that people do want to help and support and make things accessible. It's just that the world is so big and diverse that a lot of times we're just not thinking about it at all.

And it doesn't remotely cross our mind that somebody is in pain or can't get in the room, but wants to be in the room or whatever it may be. That, that's such a, such an important thing. And I love that I can say that I'm, I, I get to echo something that Michael J. Fox said in my work, which is you can ask. I think that's why that communication piece and always just starting with open dialogue is truly, truly, if only one thing matters, it's that is you just have to ask.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Like, let, let's not force people to be heroic every day. Mm-hmm. Like, you can make these a little bit easier. Mm-hmm. And then can you just touch on the space part of it a [00:43:00] little bit?

Kiah Amara: Yeah. So space is a lot more of those things that you think of as sort of basic ADA, right? Where you're like, okay, according to the ADA, A wheelchair user needs 36 inches of space, you know, 36 inches wide and 60 inches to make a turnaround.

It's also things like, okay, sensory friendly space, what does that look like? Can we have a room where the lights are dimmable and where there's lower noise and we can put, you know, some sensory friendly objects in there, like headphones and whatever it may be to make those spaces more accessible.

Those are a lot more tangible. Anything that's space related is much more tangible but still includes that piece as well of like, the ADA is a fantastic place to start a conversation. And if you have the capacity and the finances and the time to rebuild everything so that it exists exactly to ADA Standard, amazing.

Do that and then do more. But. I know so many folks who are like, ADA is great. I would [00:44:00] love to have that. I don't, so how can I get, you know, a, a curb ramp that I can have right here so that even though this sidewalk doesn't have a curb cut, even though it legally should because the ADA is over 30 years old, it doesn't.

So now what do I do? And that piece again of like great start with the ada. If you can make that happen, perfect. Otherwise everything becomes a one-on-one conversation. Same with again, our accessibility spaces. If you can have your own independent room that you can use as sensory relief space, we always make a point to have that on every single one of our sets.

And we do a lot of ultra low budget, super small indie. It just matters what your priority is. And obviously prioritizing folks as wellbeing is something that we think everybody should do. But if you don't have it, then it's great. What can I keep in my fanny pack? Can I keep earplugs in my fanny pack?

Can I, you know, what else can I offer in the space? Can we have somebody who gives a [00:45:00] warning when there's gonna be flashing lights by the camera or for a scene that's happening on set? All of those things that have to do with how people engage with the physical space.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now can we talk a bit about representation and where we are on that journey?

Kiah Amara: Oh, yes. I think we're so much better. Again, as I said, starting out in 2009 and being used to, you know, folks being like, well, you are not disabled enough and you're too disabled. That still exists, but I think we have a lot more disabled leadership who's in the space a lot more. Folks who have been in the space for a long time who are now identifying as disabled.

And a lot more advocates who are super interested and excited about including disabled creativity in their projects. Luckily it seems like the authentic casting piece is pretty much a given now, right? Folks expect that if you're casting somebody for a disabled part, [00:46:00] that person should be disabled.

The term for that is if you don't cast authentically is actually called a crip up. So another place where that word comes back into play. So if you're casting inauthentically, a lot of times now that's sort of an automatic boycott from the community, so people will avoid that as much as possible, which is fantastic.

However, and again, Inevitable Foundation has some really great, you know, writing on this. We have also found that as disabled, like representation increases on screen, we haven't found an equal rise in disabled people identifying with those characters and saying, yes, that's me. As the characters have risen, the percentage is actually lower for folks saying it's an accurate representation.

And that's because we still really lack the behind the camera representation from disability.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Let's unpack [00:47:00] that. So producers may say, oh, let's put a wheelchair using person in this show. Mm-hmm. Check, but perhaps they don't have a full backstory and authentic experience. They're just, I'm, I'm thinking of that character in Glee.

What was that kid's name? You know the one who would get up and dance?

Kiah Amara: Archie Arch Archie. Yeah. There's always memes about that wheelchair dive into the swimming pool. But it's, it's less that cuz it's really wonderful to see, you know, You have a procedural show and the nurse at the front desk is, you know, limb different.

Right. That's great. That's an under five role, meaning she doesn't have a lot of lines. Maybe she only says two lines in that entire episode, but disability was apparent in the space. It doesn't matter. That person doesn't need to have a backstory that that's actually a really common faux pa, and I dunno if that's the right word, but it's what my word, my, my brain is bringing up is that because disability has been [00:48:00] so underrepresented, a lot of times people avoid casting disabled folks in everyday roles because the cycle of misrepresentation the word for that too is the perception gap.

The perception gap is that, oh, there's a person in a wheelchair there, there must be a reason they're disabled. Like there must be, there must be a story about their bravery and an overcoming. And there can't just be like disabled people who exist.

Julie Harris Oliver: It does must be the main focus,

Kiah Amara: right? Disabled people are Passover for small roles because folks who are looking at it go, oh, perception gap.

Oh, if they see a disabled person though, there'll need to be a reason for them to be disabled. Which no disabled people just exist. We're just around,

just let them on the front desk. You don't have to do a deep dive,

Julie Harris Oliver: right? They can do whatever it is. But the other side of that being that when people do go after disabled storylines and wanna tell disabled stories, a lot of times you have a bunch of non-disabled people telling that story, [00:49:00] and that's how you wind up with situations.

I mean, I, I have a, a, a fantastic in front of the camera example, which is that an autistic actor who was cast for a role is relatively low need autistic person. So potentially a non apparent disability for some folks had to study Rain Man, which is a crip up. To perform autism the way the creatives wanted them to perform autism, even though they themselves are autistic.

And I think that's very true in, you know, background creative space too, right? Where we get these terrible, terrible representations like me before you and like music where there's no community input, it's just somebody who is still living in what's called the charity model in their head, right? They're saying, oh, I'll be a good Samaritan.

I'll tell a disabled story so that disabled people can see themselves represented on screen. [00:50:00] But if it's a non-disabled person who's writing the character, who's designing their story, who's controlling the lens of the camera, who's doing all of the work for you know what that story actually is, then whether or not you cast somebody who is authentically disabled to play that character,

you're still gonna have the disability community going, well, that's not my experience of being disabled, because again, you wind up with all these, these portrayals that the creative core of them is non-disabled and comes from a non-disabled lens, which is why again, that piece of like, okay, who's your disabled producer?

Who's your disabled director, who's your disabled writer? All of that is what we actually need when we talk about this word again, crip the lens. If you want a disabled lens, if you want a disabled story, you have to have the disabled creatives and production accessibility is [00:51:00] supposed to be there as a support for everybody.

Production accessibility isn't a creative tool to work around a bunch of non-disabled people who have decided to tell a non-disabled story and realized way too late that they're wildly off base. And you know, very lost in the perception gap of what disabled lives are really like. So that's sort of the big, the big push now, right?

Is just making folks realize that the perception gap exists and that they have been looking at disability and at disabled lives and at disabled people through the haze of this media perception gap that has existed for so long. And we have to get more disabled folks behind the camera. And again, that production accessibility is really just there to support that happening.

We wanna be there to back up the disabled writer, disabled director, disabled producer, and let them do the real creative work that needs to happen to see more authentic disabled stories.

We hear very parallel stories [00:52:00] with race and actors. Right. America Ferrara tells a story about she'd go to auditions and they'd be, have be more Latina.

She's like, I can't be more Latina than I am. I'm what I

am. Yeah.

Because I am that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

Kiah Amara: There's, there's lots of it that has to do with that multi intersectional piece too. Which again is a whole other, other podcast section, but since we're a queer TG and c disabled company, we talk a lot about that.

And as you said with the, the racial piece of it too, we just worked on another short with somebody who's an Afro-Latina, who's disabled who also cast a deaf Afro-Latina in their short just to play a random role cuz it was the right actor. And so the set spoke four languages, right? The piece itself was multilingual English, English, Spanish.

But we also had Brazilian Latinos who were speaking Portuguese and we had ASL as a part of the set space too, that [00:53:00] so many of those stories, right, are then, oh well this world can't exist because it's too many things at once and that's how media looks at it. And I have absolutely been,

Julie Harris Oliver: unlike the world.

Kiah Amara: Yep. I have absolutely been in rooms too where somebody's like, oh, well if they're black, we can't also have them be disabled. Or, oh, if they're trans, we can't also have them be lesbian. Like they have to be one or the other. Otherwise, it will overwhelm the audience and I think that's something we so have to get past like.

The audience is smarter than that and the audience wants more than that. And also we all have friends who come from very diverse intersectional spaces, even if we ourselves don't identify that way. Like you have somebody in your life who is that thing? I always love talking about getting to see everything everywhere, all at once for the first time.

Because that's a disability film, right? That's a neurodiversity film that's all about ADHD for as much as Yes, it is absolutely about family and generational [00:54:00] trauma and all of that. It's also about ADHD and the creatives have specifically said that, you know, ADHD was a part of this story and the functioning of the piece is like in allegory for ADHD and how the ADHD mind works.

And I do not have ADHD, but my husband does. And when I watched that for the first time, I just cried at the end of it cuz I was like, oh my gosh, this character is you. This is a hundred percent you. And nowhere in the film do they even say ADHD. Hmm. It, it just is, it just exists that way. And that's really what I wish we had more

Julie Harris Oliver: it j it just, we need to give audiences a bit more credit in general. We can handle it.

Kiah Amara: And just realize how diverse your audience is too. I always found it so funny that people are still like, ah, unless it is this white male superhero with a gun, no one will care about it or this story.

And I'm like I love a good you know, action movie, [00:55:00] you know, all of those sorts of things. But also, have you watched Queer Disabled, Afro Surrealism?

Julie Harris Oliver: Every audience is not the cis hat white male between 18

and 34.

Kiah Amara: Right? Well, and again, you're like, disability is 25% of the population.

We literally have the data on that being a trillion dollar untapped marketplace just from disabled people and people who know and are friends with disabled people. Because even if I am not a wheelchair user, I'm not gonna go see the Me Before You which poorly represents, you know, friends of mine. It doesn't even matter what the connection is.

If somebody in my community says, Nope, that's not me. Don't watch that. Don't support that, then I'm not doing it. So you're not just losing that person, you're losing all the people who know and care about that person and all the people who know what that space actually looks like and what that authentic space actually is.

Who can spot really easily that you're doing it wrong? [00:56:00] Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: So let's all be better and thank goodness you are around to help everyone do that. What have I not asked you about that I should have asked you about? Hmm.

Kiah Amara: I think that the only thing that I always love to spout off is just tons of people who are doing really, really great work.

I think that's a piece that we miss so often too, that people so often fall into, oh, well we really wanted this, but we couldn't find anybody. Hmm. Or there we really wanted this writer, this director, this actor to be authentic, but nobody exists yet. Which is also just not true. So, Jess, not sure. Not true at all.

And I, I already mentioned Inevitable Foundation. They're really wonderful. I work a lot with Respectability, which is another nonprofit org that has an entire alumni system and lab program for disabled creatives. That's directors, that's writers, that's producers. It's casting folks. It's tons of people.[00:57:00]

I also, I've worked with Ariel Baska a bunch who runs a nonprofit called ride the Omnibus. And we're actually doing another conference, which is called Accessibility in Horror, which is taking place July 8th and ninth. And that is entirely focused on, you know, disabled creatives on Cripping, the lens on why there's such a connection especially for queer disabled filmmakers to genre space and filmmaking and how that's a whole world in itself.

There'll be tons of disabled creatives who are speaking there as well. And Forward Doc is gonna be one of the folks who's helping out with that process as well. We're using some of their guidelines for our festival accessibility and the accessibility scorecard that Forward Doc did with the film festival accessibility group will be a part of that too.

So, so many things again, Forward doc Inevitable Foundation, respectability, ride the Omnibus. And those are just sort of a very small [00:58:00] smattering of the groups that are doing things. There's always conferences and talks and just so many things that are, that are taking place in the community that tapping in is, is really not, not hard at all.

And if you reach out to anybody, the community will connect you to everybody else in the community as well and say, oh, we're not the right fit for this, but you know, who you should talk to is that person over there. So just getting started, just getting started can make all the difference. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: We're gonna link to all those things in the show notes and then how can people reach you,

Kiah Amara: How to reach me. So you can find us at indievisibleentertainment.com. It's spelled like indie film, indie visible entertainment.com. We have a contact form on there. And that website includes tons of information about all of the, many, many things that we do.

Again, everything from actually producing content and doing a bunch of in-house stuff as a full production company to production, accessibility, [00:59:00] specific things to helping staff up. If you are looking for those writers, directors, producers casting all of that, all the way down to, oh, I need this captioned.

How do I do that? So really covers a wide range of stuff. We are always happy to do generals with folks. Just to sort of help start you on your journey of accessibility and disability culture, and you know where you should go next. We're, we're always very excited about that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you so much Kiah Amara.

It's been so great to have you on the podcast.

Kiah Amara: So wonderful to be here. Thank you so much.

EP 231: Dr. Apollo Emeka

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] The Catch A Break podcast is the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. Project Greenlight is about the making of an independent film by an emerging director. On season four of Catch A Break, these two shows meet. We'll talk to the producers, director, the cast, the department heads to hear what it was really like.

"Those people had to not only sign up to do a low budget indie movie, but have a camera and mic in their face while doing it." Hear what really happened behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. On Catch a Break, wherever you get your podcasts. That season of Catch A Break drops on July 13th, so mark your calendars, but right now you're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood.

I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find me in my consulting work@julieharrisoliver.com. You can find the podcast at the otherfiftypercent.com, all spelled out in letters as well as on all the podcast places. Or you can find links to everything I'm doing at the link tree that is in the show notes. The newest thing I have for you is that I've added a link for the books that people keep bringing up on the [00:01:00] show.

I've become an affiliate of an independent bookstore group, so please use my link to purchase those books our guests are talking about, and that way you don't have to remember as you're listening and your purchase can help support the show, and we're supporting independent bookstores. It's a win, win, win, win, win.

Okay, so one more thing before we meet today's guest. I met the smartest and funniest co-host of my new favorite podcast this week, and I want to tell you all about it. If you are a woman of a certain age or headed towards it or love someone who is, this is for you. And if you like the Kiss My Age show, you will love Circling the Drain.

The concept of a woman circling the drain conjuress up negative imagery for some, but for the hosts of Circling The Drain podcast, they've heard this phrase used so many times in reference to perimenopause, menopause, and the plight of the aging woman that they've chosen to reclaim and repurpose the phrase in the spirit of humor.

Co-host and longtime friends. Ellie and Julia take a deep dive into the sometimes embarrassing, often hilarious, always bewildering issues of hormonal [00:02:00] changes that take place in midlife. Doesn't feel like everyone is talking about this right now, or is that just my TikTok feed? Through honest accounts, thoughtful interviews, and group panel discussions, their mission is to make you chuckle, make you nod your head in recognition, and hopefully make some scientific progress. Tune in to Circling The Drain podcast every other Wednesday. Wherever you get your podcast today.

On this podcast, I sat with Dr. Apollo Emeka. Apollo is the founder and CEO of Apollo Strategy Group, Inc., an innovative leadership and strategy consultancy for business leaders, companies, and the next wave of ventures launched by diverse and impactful founders. Since its inception, Apollo Strategy Group has created over 500 million in value for a hundred plus high performance leaders and businesses and industries such as technology, real estate, professional services, and entertainment by developing bespoke strategies and providing hands-on implementation.

Prior to founding Apollo Strategy Group, Apollo launched and sold a [00:03:00] business. He scaled from one to seven locations within four years, while serving as an FBI intelligence analyst. In 2022, he retired from a decorated 20 year military career as a US Army, special Forces Green Beret, and a US military Intelligence analyst.

Apollo has a doctorate of policy planning and development from University of Southern California, fight on, and lives with his wife and two children in Pasadena, California. Apollo Strategy Group is small business certified, disabled veterans, business certified, and minority Business enterprise certified.

We talked about his journey going from being unschooled to his PhD at USC , how he thinks about leadership and achievement, and how he works with clients to embed equity all along the way Here, have a listen. I am gonna say, doctor, I'm here with Dr. Apollo Emeka. Welcome to the other 50% why. Thank

Apollo Emeka: you, Julie, and please, Just call me Apollo.

I got, I got my doctorate. So that way people would be, feel [00:04:00] obliged to call me Doctor the first time that they say my name and then I can just say, oh no, please pish posh. Please just call me Apollo. You'd be super humble after that. That's right. Exactly

Julie Harris Oliver: around here. We'd like to give credit where credit is due.

Okay, so, we'll,

Apollo Emeka: I'll take it. Okay,

Julie Harris Oliver: good. Thank you for coming. Could you tell us kind of in your own words, how you explain what it is that you do? We

Apollo Emeka: help leaders and teams who have really big goals align all of their people and resources to hit those big goals. So sometimes that involves coaching, facilitation, strategic planning.

We bring this kind of host of wraparound hands-on services to help leaders and teams make big things happen.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now I'd love to hear how you got to that point. That sounds really big and strategic and cutting edge and like you're making things happen. Mm-hmm.

Apollo Emeka: I'd like to think so.

Julie Harris Oliver: I know that perhaps that wasn't always the case in your life, so if you could tell us kind of your origin story and how you [00:05:00] got here.

Cuz I think it's a story unlike those that people typically

Apollo Emeka: hear. Well, yeah, I, I think that that one of the most catalyzing moments that I had in life happened when I was around eight years old and my parents decided to homeschool me. At least that's what they called it. But really it was, I think the modern movement would be called no schooling.

Or unschooling. Unschooling, yeah. Yeah. So it's, which means

Julie Harris Oliver: it's let you follow whatever.

Apollo Emeka: That's it. Wild hair you have that is it. And so, I mean, that was, that defined. My, my adolescence was just kind of like, yeah. Following my curiosity and my whims and , and my weaknesses in a lot of ways of, you know, if I just didn't want to get outta bed, my parents were like, okay, don't, you know, if I didn't want to go to soccer practice, my parents were like, you know, okay, don't do it.

And then I just would like quit. I kind of developed this habit of, of quitting and failing at almost everything that I, I got involved in. [00:06:00] Yeah, I was gonna say, how did

Julie Harris Oliver: that go? I think you've gotta be super motivated and what, what eight year old is honestly.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah, I mean, I always felt like an adult trapped in a child's circumstances.

Mm. And I used to, I remember, I mean, around that time, I would be like, oh my gosh, I cannot wait to be an adult. I cannot wait to be an adult. To be able to kind of pursue all the things that I want to pursue and to really be able to get. Um, another, another parenting term that I've learned is natural consequences.

You know, the natural consequences of your actions. So my parents were not the type that would, you know, send me to time out for three minutes because when you're an adult, you don't really get sent to time out for three minutes. So they were pretty big on natural consequences. They weren't super intentional about it, but that was what I just felt like I didn't, I couldn't get the benefits of the feedback or the fruits of my actions as a child.

So fourth grade is when I was like, oh yeah, I don't want to do school anymore like this. And my parents were like, okay. And then I just did no [00:07:00] school. My dad, you know, he tried and, and there were times where he was like trying to teach me algebra in fourth grade, and he was like, oh, this is great. Like, I'm teaching you stuff that you wouldn't be able to learn at fourth grade in school.

But then I would be able to sit down for like 15 minutes and then my eyes would just like start rolling. And then he'd be like, all right, whatever. And then in fifth grade, I remember fifth, fifth grade rolled around and I was like, oh gosh. Okay. That was a fun experiment. But like, I was just sitting around the house, whatever, running around, riding bikes, building tree houses by myself.

Cause all my friends are in school. I need to go back to school. I need to go back. So in fifth grade, , beginning of the year I went back to school. So you put yourself back in? I put myself back in.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I think it's worth noting you are the youngest of, is it

Apollo Emeka: four boys? Yeah. I'm the youngest of four boys by, , 11 years.

So they're kind of clustered 11, 13, and 15 years older than I am. And

Julie Harris Oliver: it's not that your family is not academic. Two of your brothers are professors. Your father's super

Apollo Emeka: academic? Yeah, so my, my dad's black, my mom was [00:08:00] white. And my, my dad who grew up in Arkansas in the segregated south, his father actually had a doctorate.

So I think his, his father got his doctorate. Wow. In the fifties or something like that. My dad, , had an mba. Has an mba, and then, like you said, two of my brothers have terminal degrees. One has an MFA and the other has a PhD. And so it wasn't so much like, , we don't see the value in knowledge. We don't see the value in academics.

It was more so just like academics shouldn't cost you your soul, kind of, and that, you know, systems are problematic and that if this system is not serving you, then don't participate. I kind of love that. Yeah, it's wild. I, I found this, my dad actually maybe 10 years ago, sent this thing that, , was like their scribblings on an notepad of like, why they should homeschool me or not, and it was so amazing to read.

That list just resonated so hard, and a lot of it was, you know, yeah, we want him to pursue his own curiosity. We want him to [00:09:00] be able to kind of learn at his own pace and not be held back or rushed forward by the group and all of these things that it felt really, even at the time, it felt really messy, but it's so funny to see how a lot of what they intended actually happened.

I, I now have a doctorate, so it's, it's wild how, how that worked, how you did

Julie Harris Oliver: things kind of on your own time, because that, that feels like, as a parent, that feels like such a risky move. Right. Because I, I think about all the time, you know, I'm in this stage now where my kids are either graduating college or applying to college, and it's such a blatantly inequitable system.

Yeah. And I, no, part of me wants to participate and also, We have to participate in order to get on with this American life.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah, I mean, I think. Well, so I guess fifth grade, you know, I went to school, I was there for probably five weeks and I was like, oh, nevermind. I remember why I hated this place and I just bounced right back out.

And I kind of, I kind of did that all the way up until high school. My mom got [00:10:00] diagnosed with pancreatic cancer when I was 17, and then five months later she, she died, she passed away. And then I was like, oh, well I'm never, like I, I was in complete free fall. I was a big mama's boy, and so I was like, okay, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to, like, there's no way I'm gonna be able to graduate from high school.

And so I ended up dropping out and my dad signed for me to be able to go into the army at 17. But, you know, I think, and, and I, I had dreams of being on either Saturday Night Live or being in the F B I from the time that I was like 13 years old. I, and it was because I loved watching Saturday Night Live.

What did the other live, and I loved watching the X-Files and I was able to hit one of those goals. I was in the f FBI for six years. And so, you know, there's this with regards to your comments around. The system, you know that there is kind of no such thing as non-participation in the system or that it comes at a heavy cost.

The more you try to not participate in the system, the more you're, the more it extracts a heavy cost. I think that [00:11:00] I learned to see the kind of like the code in the matrix from a really young age. I, cause I'm telling you, my mind exploded. I remember where I was sitting, I remember where my mom was sitting when she was like, you don't have to go back to school tomorrow.

It's just like, What, what, and, and when you look at it, so much of our society, all of these social structures and institutions only exist on collective belief. That is the only thing that keeps them going right, is collective belief. And when enough people don't believe in the system, then the system changes, right?

And so I was taught very young that like, hey man, all this stuff's made up okay. Like school, no school, whatever. Like as long as you have a roof over your head and you have enough food to eat, like the, that's the bare minimum. That's the stuff that's immutable. You've gotta have that, right? But like, other than that, like school, no school, whatever, it's all, it's all made up.

And so I think that what I, I had the benefit of being able to see the code in the matrix [00:12:00] from a, a young age, but I also didn't like being broke. You know? I didn't like being, I was very conscious from a young age that we, that we didn't have money. And, and a lot of it is because of the way that my parents chose to participate or not in the system.

And so I, I realized, hey, I need to get some discipline. And that's why I was drawn to the Army because I was like, okay, yeah, everything's made up, but if you play by their rules, then you, you reap the rewards that the system doles out. So I gotta figure out how to make that happen. That's an

Julie Harris Oliver: amazing realization to have really young.

Because I think collectively it feels like recently we're all kind of figuring out, oh, this is made up. We're all doing it this way because that's how we've always done it, but it, someone made it up in the first place. Someone designed it this way and it doesn't have to be that way, but to to know that as a kid, it's interesting how that would then affect the rest of your life and how you pursue things.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. I think that it's more important than ever to [00:13:00] realize. How much everything is made up. You know, our system of money, our system of government, these things only exist because we believe that they do. And so we're at a more fragile point than I think people really realize because we take the dollar for granted and we take, you know, our, our political institutions for granted, and we, we talk trash and we lament both of those things.

But, but we also, we, we talk about them like, they're, like, they're these invincible giants. And I think that we're at a point where things are more fragile than most people realize, but I think people are starting to kind of wake up to that. So, like you said, we're having this kind of collective awakening too, to the made up nature.

And the, you know, of these social constructs that define a lot of what happens in our lives. Well, I used to

Julie Harris Oliver: say this a lot about work, you know, while I was at work in an office job and people would look at me like I had seven heads. But I would say, you know what? We've made this whole thing up. We're all here playing work.

Like this thing we're doing doesn't really matter. And my theory was we're all kind [00:14:00] of here to work out our stuff, to help each other, to do things collectively. But the ultimate like whatever this business is doing didn't necessarily really matter in the big scheme

Apollo Emeka: of things. Mm. Mm-hmm. And when you say here, are we talking like metaphysical here or are we talking about like an address here?

Oh, I

Julie Harris Oliver: meant like whatever we're doing in this building for this company, like in the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter. Like we were never curing cancer, right? It was always just, we're all running around being really stressed out, having all these meetings, and we've all decided that it's really important.

But in the big scheme of the cosmos, in humanity, it's, it wasn't important at all. But, but there was something about that we all believe this is important, so we're all gonna put our heart and soul into it and work out whatever we need to work out while we're here.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, so then I guess, what do you, what do you see as kind of righteous, as righteous work?

, you mentioned curing cancer, you know, like if we're, I, if we're curing cancer, is that, you know, like what is, what is righteous work?

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh [00:15:00] god. I mean, yeah, curing cancer seems important. Like for, for me, it's, you know, I don't even know if I can put it in a sentence, but there's something about, I know creating a better world, creating a better society, having more, having more equality, having a place where people can be who they're meant to be and do the thing that they're meant to do and creating that environment.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. I love it. What is it for you? Well, yeah, I think it's the same thing. I guess I just see it as like, I think that you can do that almost from anywhere. You know, I think that you, and I think that's the, the hard part about, that's the hard thing about being a part of an institution is it almost feels like people think you kind of have to do it the like, evil way almost.

It's like, no, we have to do things in a way that's exploitative, otherwise we're not gonna make money. Right. You know? Or we have to do things in a way that doesn't consider people's feelings otherwise we're like, this woke like mushy thing that's just again, not gonna make money. That's not thinking about the bottom [00:16:00] line.

And I think that there are so many examples of companies that are doing things in a non evil way, and they're making good money and they're doing good in the world. You know? And I, I'm sure I could say some names and people would be like, oh no they don't. They're not good. But I mean, the things I've heard about, like Patagonia, that's an unmatched for sure.

They're almost unfair to point out because it's, it's almost like a non-profit for-profit company. Like they're playing a different game. They're playing a different game. They are. And it, and it's, that's the thing though, that, like, that's how you can be a, a participant in the system, but not, you can leverage the rules of the system to do things in a way that actually doesn't, that's, that's net positive.

You know? And I think that the owner of Patagonia sees that he sees the code in the Matrix and so he was like, Hey, like you guys have gotta find a way to essentially make us a non-profit for-profit, otherwise I'm gonna sell this company. But there are lots of companies that are out there that I think are, are, have a net positive impact on the world and certainly like, you know, [00:17:00] lots of people that have a net positive impact on the world.

And we just act like you can either do good or you can do well. And, and I just, I just reject that. I love that

Julie Harris Oliver: phrase. Either you can do good or you can do well. Yeah, you have to be able to do both. I think this has come into such sharp relief for me, especially lately when like you're looking at every single studio in Hollywood has just had massive layoffs.

Yeah. And I gotta, and, and not just Bitter Betty because it happened to me recently, but when you're looking at these companies and I gotta, I gotta think they're profitable companies, but not in the way that makes the shareholders. Happy. So then it feels like the capitalism to make the very few people at the very top, obscenely wealthy at the cost of thousands of well paying jobs that are supporting families and supporting lifestyles, seems, seems not right to me.

Put 'em mi mildly.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. There's this, this series on Netflix called Fill in the Blank, explained, and there's, , [00:18:00] billionaires explained and basically the, they, it's really cool. They have these illustrations for like explaining billionaires and, and kind of the, the economic consequences of billionaires.

But, but one of the things that was really salient with me is, I can't remember what illustration they had, but it really stuck with me that like when you can afford to just park your money, right? Like when you can just afford to park your money and kind of press pause. Like that's why I. Billionaires stay billionaires, right?

Like most Americans cannot hit the financial pause button, but billionaires can. And so when you, you know, like with all of these layoffs, those, the people who help to put the company in the position to make a whole bunch of money, that value gets captured by the company and it gets captured by the, the top executives and by the shareholders.

And so they're kind of like locked in. Right. And then when it's like, oh, shoot, we need to sit on the sidelines for a little bit, then we can reduce our [00:19:00] overhead. I e fire a bunch of people, but our value is still captured. So what's happening in that moment is like we are maybe not as, the elites are not making a ton of money at that time.

They can afford to sit on the sidelines and they, they're still gonna be able to pay their bills. That value is still captured. Whereas all the people who get laid off, right, like they, they didn't in, in the 10 years that they worked for that company, did not stack massive amounts of value that allow them to sit on the sidelines until the next upswing.

Right? So I think that there is, there's a challenge in that there's no financial. Or even moral consequence for perpetuating that pattern of let's build up a company, let's hire a bunch of people, and now we can feel good that we're employing X amount of people and Yeah. And we build it up and we capture a bunch of value, and then now we need to kind of sit on the sidelines for a bit and we're gonna decrease our overhead and, and we're still gonna be fine.

That's a huge challenge in our economy. Well, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: And it's, it's presented in a way of, for the good of the company. Mm-hmm. We have to make [00:20:00] these difficult decisions with the assumption that, oh, we're all gonna be on board with, with the good of the company. Of course. That's our highest value for the good of the company.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Let's talk about you and your work. I feel like we've gone down this rabbit hole. What is your kind of, what is your philosophy when working with clients, helping them, helping them achieve what they wanna achieve? How do you look at it?

Apollo Emeka: I draw a lot from my own personal experience, and that is, you know, I spent so much time trying to make up for the fact that I didn't have the discipline, that I didn't have the, the soccer trophies and the basketball trophies and the debate team trophies and the graduation caps and all this at the various stages in life.

I spent so much time seeing myself as an underdog, seeing myself as not worthy because I didn't, I I, I didn't check any of the boxes that society, that society can recognize as being valuable, you know, and I spent the next, really, the, the first 10 years of my adulthood, Trying to make up for all of these things [00:21:00] that I perceive to be deficits from, you know, high school to diploma, to again, to aca, you know, sports, to you name it.

I mean, I just did not have any kind of pedigree track record or the type of habits that build those things. And so then I spent the next 10 or 15 years like getting all the accolades. You know, I stacked up, I checked all the boxes. I went, came off of active duty after deploying to Iraq and moved straight to la, went to community college and took like, A million units back to back to back to back.

Transferred to usc. Did really well there. Got into the fbi, became a Green Beret in the military, entered a doctoral program, started a business, sold it. So I had like five things going on at one point and you know, and I had all of these things that you could point to and you could say, oh, that, that guy is successful.

Cuz he is got the top academic degree, degree that you can have. He's in one of the most respect. He did the things. He did the things right. And so in doing all the things, it was so funny cuz it was like, I. I checked [00:22:00] a lot of boxes in a short amount of time, a bunch of them, and I realized that when I, whenever I went into a room, I was like, I was in, I was an anomaly, you know, in a room full of Green Berets.

I was the only kind of like theater dude, you know, or like theater dude who was in marriage counseling with his wife, , in a room full of theater people or entrepreneurs or whatever. I was the only like Green Beret, you know? So like, I think that that comes from the DNA of my, of my diverse experiences of being able to, I dabbled in so many things as a kid.

I got exposed to so many different things as a kid that I drew on these weird experiences. You know, I drew on these things that at the time were like, oh my gosh, no, you should be in school. You shouldn't be running around in Seattle like doing theater or. Practicing kata, you should be in school with everybody else.

And so, yeah, so, but again, it was like all of these things that kind of had made me a weirdo or an outcast that I actually was drawing [00:23:00] from that helped me check all these boxes in such a short amount of time. And also, you know, I think some people have a really hard time. And I'm gonna get to the work philosophy in just a second.

It's some people have a really hard time identifying which boxes you like really, really gotta check. And which boxes are there just because somebody thought to put that box there, but you don't really have to check it. And I got really good at seeing those boxes, you know, of seeing like, okay, what are the boxes that you absolutely must check?

, and what are the boxes that are kind of suggestions or, or are just there because like somebody, whoever was in charge of making the boxes at the time was just like, I don't know, let's just put a thing like here. Like that's literally how stuff happens. And so I have an idea. I have an idea. Yeah. Or like, yeah, it's a requirement in stone.

Exactly, exactly. So my own success accelerated the more that I leveraged the weirdness about me. And the cool thing is that we're all kind of like, we're all kind of [00:24:00] weirdos, but we are taught to tuck it in. We're taught to be like, no, no, no, I'm not a weirdo. I swear I'm just like everybody else. I'm fine.

I'm fine. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm fine. You're fine. We're all fine. I'm, I'm just as fine as you. No more fine than you. Maybe a little bit more fine than you, but not much more. Yeah. So like that, this, this idea that like we. That normal is best, like normal is best. Fitting in is best. And so for so long I felt that pressure and, and you know, being the only black kid in, in a super white town growing up, , also had an impact of me really wanting to just, no, no, no, I'm just like you, I'm just, I'm normal, I'm normal.

, but the more I started to be like, oh wait, no, these things are weird about me, but like, what does this weirdness position me to do? You know, that maybe, maybe somebody else that doesn't have this particular flavor of weirdness wouldn't be able to do. You know, so maybe I shouldn't be looking at how do I, how do I travel the beaten path really, really quickly.

Instead it's like, oh, how do I walk the paths that only I could walk because of my unique experiences and, you know, everybody [00:25:00] has something that's a little bit weird or, and, and a lot of times it's the things that we're ashamed of. You know, I was literally, I was ashamed of. Where I lived growing up at the end of a dirt road in a trailer with no money, you know, and I would have people drop me off at the top of the driveway so they wouldn't see my house and whatnot.

And, and, and I realized that being broke gave me so much resilience. You know, it gave me so much perspective and it, and it made me, it made it so that I, I can go low maintenance if I have to. Right. Like I can, I can find other paths if I have to because that's what you do when you're broke. Mm-hmm. So what we do, essentially, I told you I was gonna make it round eventually.

, what we do is we, we help people and teams and companies identify, Hey, what is your unique D n A that positions you to be the leader that no one else could be because you, because of your unique set of experiences. What is it that this team coming together with all of these skills and all of these experiences, what are you positioned to do that no one else could do [00:26:00] because they don't have your collective dna?

And the same thing with companies. And so it's really about really getting to know our clients and getting to know the folks that we work with, so that way we can identify what is gonna be your, your unique advantage. And then how do we build around that unique advantage rather than, you know, kind of benchmarking off of a competitor or trying to be like some other leader that you saw, or, you know, just trying to like, not rock the boat and make everything normal or help to protect you from being perceived as an outcast or something.

It's like, I don't know, use those things because those are the things that, I mean, that's the experience that's gonna, that's gonna help you bring something unique to the world, to, to that office, to that place where you're just showing up to make the world a better place. I'm

Julie Harris Oliver: curious how, how you got there in yourself to realize, oh, this is actually my superpower and my secret sauce.

Like, how did you get there? And then also can you give us an example of what you're talking about?

Apollo Emeka: I hope [00:27:00] so. How did I realize it? We've all had the feeling where we're sitting in a room and you're like, Is it me? Like, do I not understand what's happening here? Because it sound, it feels like we're all emperors.

No closing it right now. You know, like so that feeling when you're sitting there and you're like, what? I need to go read a book or something cuz the things that are happening in this room sound kind of crazy based on my experience. The thing that you're trying to do sounds crazy. Right. And so it's like, I had this thing where I was like, okay, if everybody sounds crazy, then I'm probably the problem.

Right? I'm probably the one that's that's messed up here

Julie Harris Oliver: because everyone's acting like, oh yeah, that's right.

Apollo Emeka: That's right. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and like at most, maybe people will be silent and, and there's these things that are happening where, and it could be a hiring decision, it could be a product decision, it could be a business decision.

It could be a conversation about like sending your kids to what school you're gonna send your kids to. And everyone's just having this conversation and you're like, this sounds really, this sounds just bonkers. [00:28:00] It sounds off. And I think, you know, for so long I trained myself to try to shut that voice down and to say, well, no, no, no.

Everybody else thinks this way, so it's got to be you. It's, it has to be you. Like of course you don't understand because you didn't, whatever. You didn't have these, you didn't have the conventional accolades or whatever. You didn't have that conventional upbringing, so you just, they're speaking a language that you don't get and you need to, you need to learn to understand this language.

So you're thinking,

Julie Harris Oliver: first I need to code switch to get along here. Rather than I have something else that probably needs to be said out loud.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah, for sure. And I guess, yeah, I mean, I've done my fair share of code switching, but I've always been kind of obsessed with learning as well. And so I would be in these rooms and I'd be like, tell me more, because like, help me get there.

Help me get to where this will all make sense to me. When I started to kind of like push back on this, I, I was in enough rooms where enough things were happening that were making the, the hair on the back of my neck standup and being like, yo, my spidey sense is going off. [00:29:00] Some doesn't feel right. And then I just started asking provocative questions in these spaces where it was relevant or if it was like, oh, this is, I'm completely powerless in this situation, then I'd be like, okay, I need to get outta here cuz actually this is messed up so I need to go someplace where people aren't talking like this.

Right? Like that was, that was one thing is like, can I go, can I get what I want out of life? And be in fewer rooms where boring ass conversations like this, like. Boring ass, super status quo conversations like this are happening. Can I have less of this in my life? And if I can't have less of this in my life because there are rooms like this that are standing between me and what I want, well then how do I walk into these spaces with authenticity and how do I bring my own unique perspective and value into those spaces in a way that is collaborative, you know, that's, that's provocative and disruptive, but it's as collaborative as it is those things.

So for instance, you know, a lot of times it's, a lot of times it's the smallest thing of just like thinking [00:30:00] what other people are saying. I mean saying, saying what other people are thinking. It's a, it's as small as saying like, wait, how do we know that? You know, how do we know, how do we know this is true?

Right? Like, asking a question, how do we know that's true? Just a question that's as simple as that can can change the course of a conversation. I'm trying to think of kind of like a watershed moment. I think a lot of it, a lot of it has been very private for me because again, like there was one point where I was in the F B I I was running a business, I was in a doctoral program.

I was a newlywed running a business with my wife and I was a Green Beret doing special forces stuff outside the country a couple weeks or a couple months a year. Wait all at the same time. All at the same time. And so a lot of that is like the way I use my unique experiences to say like, okay, I can see which of these things are like, which of these boxes are made up and which of them are are real.

So I just got better at seeing like, okay, well if I'm gonna do [00:31:00] five things at a time, how do I make sure that like I'm only checking the boxes in each of those five things that are absolutely necessary to be successful there. And how do I, as much as possible, overlap. So that like checking a box in one place checks a box across three of the things that I'm doing.

Something. So for instance, like

Julie Harris Oliver: you just said something that I was, I heard it like as a woman, we do the opposite. When you said, figuring out how many those boxes you have to check to be successful. But I think women are conditioned to, to be successful, I have to check every last one of those boxes and a couple more that aren't even on the list in order to be successful when we have all found out.

That's not the thing that makes you successful, that makes you the person who checks off all the things at the list. On the

Apollo Emeka: list. For sure. I mean, yeah, black women are the most educated demographic in the country. Right. And yeah. , that doesn't show up in wealth and position and title. It does. Right. So, so there's something else.

There's something else. Yeah. And so I think the more kind [00:32:00] of layered your identity is, the more you know by race, gender, orientation, the more kind of layers you have, the more there is this instinct to, to get the, the, the degrees and the certification and the job title and the assets under management and the whatever.

So you have those accolades cuz you're like, oh, surely, surely, as soon as I have this thing, then people will listen to me. If I'm the

Julie Harris Oliver: most qualified person in the room, I might win the election.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. And still know. And still know, right. So, yeah. So I, I think that one of the things that I also realized really early on was that people don't care about accolades as much as they care about what you can do for them.

And so what I learned really early on is if you want to be successful, find out the people who are holding the keys to that gate and find out how to be valuable to them. And here's the trick in a way that's authentic to you. You know? And [00:33:00] that's, that's for two reasons, because one is so that way you can sleep at night.

And two, it's because if you lean into your own authenticity, you're gonna find ways to provide value that, that other people just won't, that won't have, because th those tools are not in their, in their bag because they didn't, they didn't have those experiences.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, you stumped me because, because now I'm thinking if, if you don't have, if you're not a match to what they need, then you probably need to go someplace else.

Apollo Emeka: Say more.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm just, I'm thinking, I'd love that idea of you have your unique thing and you need to do it authentically, but still give the people who hold the keys to power what they need to be successful will make you successful. Am I saying that back right? Sure. Yeah. But, but then what if your special sauce is not at all the thing that, that is gonna be helpful in that situation with that person, then do you need to look

Apollo Emeka: elsewhere?

I think that first I would look at how do I really leverage that authenticity like that, [00:34:00] my authentic self to provide value here? Because I guess the thing that's tricky about it is it's not like, oh, I did ballet growing up, so therefore I need to do ballet dance in front of the VP of such and such.

Like,

Julie Harris Oliver: wait till he sees

Apollo Emeka: Exactly. It's not, it's not, , I mean, sometimes it's that literal, like I have taken executives to the shooting range and that's, you know, that's a skillset that I have, , is shooting and teaching people to shoot. And so sometimes it is that literal I've done, you know, I grew up doing theater and at, at sc my, I had a theater minor and then I went on to do, , upright Citizens Brigade.

I did some improv stuff. And so like that's a tool in my toolkit that I've done improv stuff with our clients because that is literally a tool in my toolkit, but, Oftentimes it's like the things that I've learned from Im improv have showed up in literal ways, very minimally in the work. But that unique [00:35:00] experience, being able to draw from the experience of standing on a stage with seven other people who are all, we are all telling a collective story with no planning, and it needs to make sense and it needs to be funny.

The level of listening that has to happen, the level of being able to support people that has to happen in order to do that is like, it's a mind numbing skill. When I was doing improv, I would literally go home and take a nap after two hours of improv because I was so smoked. Oh

Julie Harris Oliver: yeah. Exhausting. And I bet you use Yes.

And every day of your life.

Apollo Emeka: Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And, and being able to. Yeah. So all of these things, it's about really the, the trick is to really love your experiences and to love yourself, so that way your subconscious knows to access your full self at work. But I think so much of us, we d we kind of like compartmentalize and we resent ourselves for [00:36:00] certain things, or we're embarrassed by the fact that we do improv and maybe somebody's gonna wanna come see me and they're gonna see that I'm not funny and it's gonna suck and I'm gonna.

You know, like we can part analyze and so like we, we close off these experiences and these, and these would be skillsets because we're like, oh, that doesn't apply. Or, oh, that kind of makes me a weirdo. Or like, it's not, I'm not, it's not like I'm up there, , you know, being Amy Poer or something like that.

I'm not an, I'm not an improv guru, so I can't really call it a skill that I have, but like it's really about recognizing and appreciating all of your experiences so that you can bring that to bear when it really matters. Because like you said, the yes and. The listening, the being part of a team when things are chaotic, like improv is a really great model for that.

But I also have the special forces model that also gives me, you know, how to be part of a, a, a high performance team when, , things are chaotic and when you have a really hard thing that you're trying to accomplish. So it's really about how do I recognize and activate these different [00:37:00] experiences that I've had in this moment when I'm sitting with an executive who's looking at whether to hire or fire, or who's looking at whether to expand the product or to do away with it.

Right? Like, how, what experiences can I call on that are gonna help me help them get to a decision and implement

Julie Harris Oliver: it? So are you working one-on-one with people or with teams

Apollo Emeka: or both? Both. Yeah. , we do, we do one-on-one coaching, and then we also do on the light end of the spectrum, we'll do like, One off, I'll do one off speaking, or we'll do one off facilitations.

And then I guess it kind of graduates up to one-on-one coaching. And then, , various levels of kind of, you know, maybe a couple month, month long engagements of kind of getting some strategic gear unstuck on a team or at a company. And then we have full-blown engagements that are multi-year, Hey, we wanna launch this product, or we want to get a certain amount of, , you know, assets under management.

And [00:38:00] then on, we have a three year horizon and we are their kind of strategic thought partners through those engagements. That sounds really fun actually. It's super fun.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Now I know that you don't. Correct me if I'm wrong. You don't do, you don't specifically do like de and I work, but I also sense that it's kind of baked in to everything that you do, especially talking about bringing your full, authentic self to work.

And we've talked about this a lot in the past as when you're talking to kind of established old companies that are led by cis heterosexual white men who are really just at the beginning of figuring out there's some systemic disparities in the country and in the workplace. Yeah. And I know there's, for me, I'm always trying to figure out like how do, how do you meet the people where they are and kind of lead them to where they need to be?

And I know we've talked about. You having a bit more of like a confrontation, not conf, confrontational may not be the right word. Being more direct about it Yeah. [00:39:00] Than maybe I would be, but can you talk about that a little bit?

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. Well first, I mean, I, I, not to let the, the, the cis old white guys off the hook here, but I wish that they were the only problem.

You know, it's, it really is a systemic issue and it's, it's, , and when, I guess when I say it, it's like lack of equity on any, on any spectrum. And we, we all are participants, you know, we're all participants to varying degrees and it's really, it's wild when there are kind of, we're working with folks who I would consider to be kind of young and progressive who say and do really problematic things, you know, , or even people of color who are saying and doing things that I feel like are counterproductive to achieving equity and justice.

Overall, so because it's the water we've all been swimming in. That's it. That is it. And I think like, especially when you kind of throw the generational issues in there. It's funny, I was, I was talking to this young woman, young black woman yesterday, and she's like, Hey, I'm looking for [00:40:00] my next thing m might you know anybody?

And I was like, yeah, I think I do know somebody who needs your skillset. Let me put you on. And she's like, wow, this is really great. Like, I, I appreciate this because we've had like one conversation ever. She randomly hit me up on LinkedIn and , she's like, I'm, I've, I appreciate you, like, going out on a limb for me.

And yeah, again, probably, I don't know, , she might, she might listen to this, but, , I don't know, she's probably in her late twenties, maybe a black woman in her late twenties. And I said, you know, I have, as I've been navigating through these larger corporations, you run into people of color and who are.

Who are literally afraid to bring me on. And my team, because we're also all a bunch of diverse folks and, and predominantly black women. And, , there are, you know, there are folks who are, who are black and they're in companies and they, they're like, oh man, I don't know. Like, should I do this? Or are they gonna think that I'm just the person who brings in all the black people.

Right.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's affiliation

Apollo Emeka: covering. [00:41:00] Yeah, exactly. So it's like, shoot. And I'm like, what? Like, but I, you know, most of the people who have that kind of sentiment were entering the workforce in the seventies, eighties, nineties when things were like, where you really, where things were you, you really had to tread lightly.

And it was so funny talking to this woman in, like I said, probably her late twenties, who was like, She was like, oh my gosh, I had no idea that was even a thing. Like I had no idea that somebody might be that cautious to where they wouldn't introduce some, somebody who looks like them because they're afraid that people are gonna be like, you're bringing too many people who look like you.

They just didn't even, it wasn't in her math at all. And so it's good. Well, that's actually really, it's really hopeful. It's hopeful, you said. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I think, I think so. Oh, again, somewhere. I mean, I, I think and ho and I mean, like, what, what is cool is I think she shows up like as her authentic self, you know, she was like, Hey, look, it's all, it's all the articles that you read about Gen Z.

She's like, yo, I wanna work remote. I wanna make this much [00:42:00] money. I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And I'm like, yo, go girl. Go. So I'm closing my laptop at five

Julie Harris Oliver: o'clock.

Apollo Emeka: Exactly. That's it. Exactly. , and this is the kind of laptop that I want too. Yeah, yeah. So she's, , but, but I think, you know, the way that we approach this is by, first of all, I mean, you know, our team, the people that we recommend, it looks like.

It looks like we are trying to actually make things more equal. You know, it looks like we're actually trying to balance the scales when companies, when we're helping companies hire, we look to, to ensure that the candidate pools are diverse and that we're addressing biases right up front and looking to, , yeah, looking to make sure that, that, that companies are, are really getting the full benefits of, of having diverse teams.

So some of the things that we do are implied just by again, showing up and it's like, oh man. Like I have, I have clients that are at companies that we [00:43:00] work with where they're like, they'll, you know, they'll text me on the side and be like, I'm so, it's so cool how you keep bringing these black women to come help us.

Like, like whispering. Yeah. Straight up whispering. Like, it's so cool.

Julie Harris Oliver: Do you find yourself having to, like if you're helping someone with a candidate search and you're pre presenting them with that pool of candidates, are you finding. Doing that is enough or are you also having to explain to them why you're doing that?

Apollo Emeka: Oh yeah. I mean, I just had a conversation not too long ago with an executive in a company that we're working with where it's like, Hey, I know one of the other senior people in the company is, is troubled by the lack of of women. And senior leadership roles and feels like she doesn't have anybody to talk to.

Then he is like, oh, who told you that? I'm like, she did. So, you know, these conversations that are not making their way to the highest echelons of these companies. You know, I, because we kind of have, because we, we are so hands on, we have views [00:44:00] into companies that are really unique because we'll be coaching or facilitating kind of all over and we get to.

See and hear these different perspectives, and then we get to take action. And just a lot of times it's a, a strategic conversation just like that one. Like, hey, basically you better have a really damn good reason for not hiring a woman into this role because a wo the, a woman at the, the only other woman at this level is calling out the fact that she's the only woman at this level and that, and is, and is saying that, hey, this is the, we're having, , you know, I'm having a hard time communicating, , and feeling like I'm part of the team because of it.

So a lot of times it is that kind of, that kind of tactical and, and direct feedback of like, yo no more, no more white dudes in this role. Because once

Julie Harris Oliver: you say that, then the act of not hiring a woman into that role is saying something. Right. Because once you have the information to not take the action, that's giving a whole nother message that you may not actually wanna be

Apollo Emeka: giving.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:45:00] And I think it's like also, I saw this headline on LinkedIn. I wish I remembered who, who had written it, but , basically it was saying like, making the business case for diversity is anti, is anti diversity, basically. Like, and I was like, oh yeah, I didn't even read the article, but I was like, oh, no.

Julie Harris Oliver: Say, say more about that. Cause I, I feel like if you, if it, it's 2023, like if you're still needing to have the business g explained to you, like, what are you even doing? But what did you, what did you hear when you saw that

Apollo Emeka: headline? Well, I think that so many places are still so not diverse and are still so successful.

So I think it's hard to just be like, d, diversity makes better businesses. , because it's like

Julie Harris Oliver: they, they have no evidence and they're fine. Why would they believe

Apollo Emeka: it? Yeah, exactly. And so like, I think it's, it's not just a given for people because it's also, it just doesn't bear out anecdotally. You know, like there are lots of, [00:46:00] there are lots of of boards, there are lots of, , senior executive teams at big successful companies that are just as homogenous as you've ever seen, you know.

So I think like, like I, I've, I've been thinking less and less that the kind of business case for diversity is, , Is not even an effective argument at this point. But I think it's also like, like one of the things I had this massive problem with, this company that we were working with was talking about implementing software for when they're hiring that will strip away identifying, , information on resumes that'll strip names off and essentially, so that way you can't tell you, you can't tell a black sounding name, a female sounding name, a white sounding name, and it's like if you're gonna pass on a resume that says Jamal, but Jamal went to Harvard and Jamal, you know, was an ex Googler X, meta X, whatever, all the things, but his name's Jamal, and so you're gonna pass.

You're not doing yourself or Jamal any favors by like hiring him without knowing that he's [00:47:00] Jamal. Because when he gets there, that same sentiment that was like, mm, I don't know. Sounds like somebody that wouldn't really fit in here. Like you're probably right. Like so I think, yeah, that like a lot of the stuff that's done, a lot of the diversity stuff is that way.

It's like, well if we could just kind of trick people into it. Yeah, trick people into it. Jamal's gonna be miserable at your company. If you had to trick everybody on the hiring committee and to like, Oh yeah. And then like it's revealed like, oh, he is actually a black guy. Like, oh, wow, my whole life is turned upside down and now I'm, and now I, I wanna hire black people.

Like, no, that's not, that's not gonna be the case. Right. So I think that, you know, like that again, that kind of like business case, it's like it's, there's something about it that's not effective. , because there are plenty of predominantly white dominated leadership teams that are, that lead really successful companies.

And, and two, it's like, it, it fails to see just the kind of the human aspect. Of diversity and [00:48:00] seeing people as people like, wow, you might do it. If you can see it, if you can see that there's a business case for doing it. Like that is not the argument that we wanna win. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Because you'll make more money.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. Good job. And then when you don't, like, I saw this article where, , what was it? The Wall Street Journal was blaming the one black dude on the board for the, , collapse of the Silicon Valley Bank. Right. So it's like, well that was just

Julie Harris Oliver: such bullshit. I I don't know how anyone could have taken that

Apollo Emeka: seriously.

Well, I mean, it, it gets printed, right. And I mean, like, there's, oh, people keep

Julie Harris Oliver: repeating it. It was a talking point on Fox, but it's was what one black guy on the board completely disabled the power of the

Apollo Emeka: 10 other white guys. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, oh, so business case for diversity. Oh yeah. I think not Look what this guy did to Silicon Valley Bank.

So it's like, oh, they

Julie Harris Oliver: all, their focus was on diversity. It was just so ridiculous.

Apollo Emeka: So ridiculous. But it got printed right in a reputable. Paper, like, I mean, it's, it's, these ideas are still [00:49:00] unchallenged, allowed to fly, right? So I think that, you know, yeah, for me it's, it's really about, , walking it like you like, like you talk it as like, we have to do that as a company.

Like at Apollo Strategy Group, we have to walk it, like we talk it, and then we also have to win again. When you're in the room and you're like, oh, hold up. This doesn't sound right, like being able to speak up and being able to say something and then actually put something in a place that's gonna change it in a way that works for that company.

Because again, you forced diversity on people and it's gonna, it's gonna be, I think that there was a time and place for forcing diversity, and it was, it was sixties, it was civil rights. It was like, and I, and I think that a lot of people are, are still in that mindset. And we have to evolve, we have to be unrelenting in our pursuit of equity and a and of diversity.

But quotas and mandates are, are, I do not think the way to do it. I think that it's important to understand the data, but I think what really needs to happen is some tough ass conversations. That's [00:50:00] what's gotta happen because quotas and mandates, without the tough ass conversations, it's either gonna be performative or One of the things that I've seen, , in the pandemic, , PO post George Floyd's murder is, you know, the, , Minority business enterprise.

We're minority business enterprise certified. So my blackness has been proved, you know, you have to send in your birth certificate and all this stuff. And what I saw, you know, there was, there were all these pots of money allegedly earmarked for minority business enterprises. And what was happening a lot, , in the business world was they were looking for essentially tokens who they could build minority business enterprises around.

And then be like, you know, 50 50 or 51 49 splits with them because, , but then, you know, dip into these, these pots of money that were earmarked or programs that were earmarked for minority business enterprises. So again, it's like this like, It's great gross. Yeah, it's gross, [00:51:00] right? And so I think, you know, , there were a lot of, it's a cynical folks who I was having the tough ass conversations with of like, who were on the, I'm about to get 51 49 in my minority business enterprise.

I'm a black person who built my business, and now I'm about to get 51 49. So that way this big ass company will back me to go get this pot of money or this big contract or whatever. And it's like, yo, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like you're, you know, they're, they're, they're tokenizing. And so that's what I think happens.

And then, you know, you go and you have the conversations and you're just like, no, this is what it is. Like, and standing in your authenticity and saying like, we're, we're not doing, I'm not gonna be the, you know, you're not gonna be the, we're not gonna have a white shadow, c e o. , to my, to my minority business enterprise.

, and we're not gonna have backdoor deals that make it so that you get the disproportionate amount of the profits, because again, these are the conversations that we're having, , that, that we're having. Wait, wait for you, for your

Julie Harris Oliver: business or,

Apollo Emeka: [00:52:00] heck no clients. No, no, no, no. I was gonna say for clients and folks that, , that we work with.

Okay. No, no, no, no. Goodness. I was gonna say no. No. But , but yeah, so I think it's, I I'm not, I'm not even, I, I wouldn't say I'm antio, but I'm like antio without context. And it's like, you have to have the tough conversations. Very, we, we, we love having strategic conversations around diversity, like, Here's, here's what happened.

Here's the trans-Atlantic slave trade. And now look what happened hundreds of years ago, and now look, and then the sixties, and this amendment and that amendment and this, that and the other. But like, and we talk about implicit bias as a concept. We talk about all these things highly strategically.

Theoretically in ways that are safe. But when it comes time to like, yo, but everybody on your board is still a white dude, those are the conversations that we're not having. Right? And so we're just, and we are thinking that, you know, because we're tired of talking

Julie Harris Oliver: about it.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. I mean, yes. Yeah. It's [00:53:00] like, well, you saw what happened to Silicon Valley Bank.

Mm-hmm. Of course. Of, of

Julie Harris Oliver: course. They're wokeness, jug them under. How do you make that argument to a homogenous board of here's what, here's why you need to do something different.

Apollo Emeka: I guess again, we're very, very hands on in the work that we do. We're not the kind of like research and recommend type of consultants.

We are like, Hey, let's co-create a strategy and then let's help you implement that strategy. And so, , I think. You

Julie Harris Oliver: don't deliver the PowerPoints and then walk

Apollo Emeka: away. We don't do that. Like most consulting firms, we, we don't do that. , and I, I think, you know, there's some, there's some merit to having really good recommendations and having really good data.

But it's all, I mean, it's, it, it, the value of it is, is limited or, or sometimes even counterproductive if it's not, if it's, if there's no will to implement it or there's no capacity to implement. And so the way that we approach things is, is by, at each step in the process, thinking about diversity, you know, [00:54:00] at each step.

Okay, well, how is this product that you're building going to, , impact, , underestimated or disadvantaged communities? Right. Like that's a thing that you can't just put it in a mission statement or a vision statement. You have to actually make the tactical decisions of how you're constructing your product in a way that's gonna make things harder for people just because of, you know, what language they speak or, or what color their skin is or, so it's really about, at each step saying, okay, what does equity look like at this step?

You know, what does equity look like in this role, in this composition of this leadership team? So we take a really kind of, it's a, it's almost like a, how do I say it? It's, it's, it's a, we don't think about mandates and quotas. We just think about how do we, how do we keep equity in mind at each step in the implementation of your strategy?

That's it.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's the embedding equity in each step along the

Apollo Emeka: way. Yeah. And I wish that there was some magic wand for. How you do that, right? But it's, [00:55:00] it really comes down to emotions and people and, and so you have to be ready to have those conversations with people in a way that holds them accountable, but is non judgey, you know?

And that's a fine line to walk of having accountability without, without judgment. Because there's

Julie Harris Oliver: an empathy piece in there to get people to think about other people in a way that doesn't judge them for not having thought

Apollo Emeka: about other people. Exactly. But then hold them accountable. Like, okay, well now you, now you've had this conversation, right?

So like, now what are we gonna do? And even, you know, like, I expect that they're going to continue to operate the way that they have been operating, right? So like I go in with that expectation that they're, even now they know, or they've thought about it or they've said they care or whatever. I expect that their behavior is not going to change.

And so I am, but I, but it must, right? And so, like, and it's not like we, we, we are successful every time, or like all the companies that we work with just look like the [00:56:00] United Nations. But we, we try to be as thoughtful as possible in moving and moving people out of their comfort zones and, and towards more diversity.

Well, cuz it's a,

Julie Harris Oliver: it's a shift in thinking. And I think going back to the, embedding it every step along the way. Cause there's a shift of, oh, I get it. I'm gonna do better. We're gonna do some diversity work on the side after we get done with all of these business objectives that we're going to do. And it's a matter of pulling them back and being like, no, wait a minute.

You're going to do the diversity work in every step of this Yeah. Business strategy that you're doing. Exactly. It's not gonna

Apollo Emeka: be on the side later. Exactly. Exactly. And you know, I think when, when there's opportunities, when companies are, you know, now it's, it's a little tougher because. Most of the companies that we were, are working with are, are contracting rather than expanding.

But when people are hiring, I feel like that's, it's really, , and again, in the way that we work, it's really easy when people are hiring cuz you can just, oh, we're gonna change the kind of, we're gonna change the makeup and we're also gonna [00:57:00] help to create venues for conversations where, you know, where these diverse personalities can, can come out.

So it's not just about getting visual diversity, but it is like, oh shoot. Yeah, this person does have a perspective that we don't have and like, we need to honor that. But if you, if you hire and you don't create the venues for the, to have unexpected conversations, then, then it's, it's gonna be painful for everyone.

Yeah. Well if you

Julie Harris Oliver: have, you know, seven guys in the room who all went to the same school and were in the same fraternity, what is the point of hiring an eighth one? Yeah. How does that help you?

Apollo Emeka: Well, I mean, the thing that's tough is it is really freaking helpful. Like, that's the thing that's tough is it, is actually helpful.

It's a certain type of help, but like, again, you, you can't point to all these companies where there are plenty of companies that we've actually, I've, I've been like, Hey, please stop. I've had to say, , to one of, one of my favorite clients. I'm like, please stop sending me companies of all [00:58:00] white dudes. Like, and the, there are these companies that are skyrocketing and it is literally, It's literally a bunch of white guys.

So to it, it's, we can't just make the blanket statement that like, you're gonna be better off hiring diverse because in the short run, at the very least, you're probably gonna be just fine with all, with all your white guys. I think that you're gonna be just fine, like I said in the short term. But I think that the companies that employ the most, the most diversity are gonna win out in the long run.

And are, are the ones who come in and are positioned to be the massive market disruptors that just transform industries, you know, that just wipe you out, you know? , so I think that, again, the, the business case is a little tenuous, , in, in the short term cuz yeah, you hire so-and-so who also went to Harvard and was also in the same fraternity and also summered in France.

And also, also also, like you

Julie Harris Oliver: have a shorthand, you're gonna make the thing quick.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. Yeah. It's like they know all the same people, [00:59:00] you know, or the same kinds of people that you know, and so they're gonna be able to bring them to the company. Like it's, it's, you can't just say like you're to, like right now, your company is gonna go under if you don't diversify.

No. But when it

Julie Harris Oliver: comes to, when you're going to have to really innovate and be creative and think about things maybe from a different angle than you always have. Yeah, absolutely. And also try to avoid setting up that, that bro culture that's gonna take you

Apollo Emeka: under in different ways. For sure. Yeah, for sure.

For sure. Yeah. I mean, and unlocking, obviously we know unlocking market segments and things like that. It's that diverse pieces is really important as well.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Now what have I not asked you about that I should have asked you about? Cause I've had you for a lot of time

Apollo Emeka: now. Yeah, I know. I feel like I talked so much.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, you're on a podcast, so that's the ideal behavior.

Tell me about, , you just started a podcast.

Apollo Emeka: Tell me about that. [01:00:00] Yeah, so I'm, I'm really excited about the podcast that, , that we just launched. It's called The Achievement Index, and, , it shares a name with this assessment that I developed in my doctoral work. And basically the underlying premise of the Achievement Index is it measures how well you do three things, prioritize, leverage, and execute.

Because in my work, I found that those are the three things that you have to do really well. In order to, in order to be successful, you have to prioritize meaning, , you have to know what matters and why it matters. Know what you're, you know what you seek to do. You have to leverage, which means where, whereas in the prioritize, , dimension.

You're thinking about, , you're thinking really ambitiously and you're thinking about, oh man, which mountain topic am I gonna take? What, what flag am I gonna, , what, what mountain topic am I gonna plant my flag on? And then on the leverage side, you're thinking really lazy. You, you take your ambitious hat off and you put your lazy hat on and you say, okay, wait.

What's the easiest way that I can get to the top of that mountain? [01:01:00] And, , so that's, that's leverage. And we look, explain that a little more.

Julie Harris Oliver: Cause I was reading up on this from you and I still, I, I'm not sure, I'm still totally clear on what do you mean by leverage? Leverage What?

Apollo Emeka: So leverage, , leverage has four components.

Technology, information, people, and systems. So you've got a goal, right? You've gotta, and, and we call this the base camp. You're building out your base camp at the bottom of the mountain, which is your technology information, people, and systems that are gonna make climbing that mountain easy. So it's like, okay, well how can we use technology to make climbing this mountain easy?

How can we use information to make climbing this, this mountain easy? How can we leverage people or how can we leverage systems to make climbing this mountain easy? And then the execute is all about charting the course up the mountain and then actually taking the steps up the mountain. And so it's about figuring out who's gonna do what by when, basically, which you know, who's gonna leverage what by when to get to the top of the mountain.

And I've found that people, they tend towards one of the three more [01:02:00] than the others. You know, so like myself, I'm heavy prioritize, I'm something like 84% prioritize, 8% leverage, and 8% execute. So I love sitting down at the bottom of the mountain, looking at the mountain ranges and trying to decide, you know, where is it that, which, which mountain top are we gonna take?

And so, yeah, you, you know, the, the, the folks who we have on the podcast are diverse, diverse founders and, and leaders who take the assessment. And then we come on and we kind of just talk through all of the things that they've done through the lens of their results. So it's like, hey, You have, oh, interesting.

4% execute, but you've managed to raise 250 million and build all these cu, you know, companies. How did you get that done when you're, when you are like, you're a big leverager or you're a big prioritizer and not so much an executor? And, , yeah. We just, we, our first handful of guests have been just these amazing, amazing black and brown founders who have just done awesome stuff, especially in the, in the VC space, in the venture [01:03:00] space, , but internationally, , and have, have, have made big things happen.

So it's really cool to be able to have them take this assessment to see their results, to have them process their results and then say, yeah, how did you, how did you do that? And so every show, we also have these kind of actionable takeaways. So you can also take the achievement index assessment as well.

And then kind of like if you match up with one of the guests, then you, , Then they're basically doling out advice for you from, you know, for your kind of personality type. , so it's a really fun show and it's been an amazing experience so far.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Can I go take that? Where can I take

Apollo Emeka: it? Yeah. The achievement index.com.

The achievement index.com, , is where you can take the assessment and it's also, if you go to the achievement index, wherever you get your podcast, the link to the, , to the assessment is in the show notes as well.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. That is super fun. How else or where else can people find you?

Apollo Emeka: LinkedIn [01:04:00] is basically my Facebook.

All of my personal stuff. Everything I, LinkedIn is like the only place I look anymore. So yeah, if you wanna find me, find me on LinkedIn. I am on there like, as much as anybody else is on, , Facebook or Instagram or TikTok. I read all my dms, I respond, I. , dole out, , recommendations for people who hit me up in my dms and want connections.

Careful what you wish for. So, so feel free to hit me up.

Julie Harris Oliver: Anything you wanna leave us with, any advice,

Apollo Emeka: I'll leave you with. What makes you different, makes you strong. Love yourself, so that way all parts of yourself, so that way your subconscious knows to access all parts of yourself and to bring that to bear at whatever task is at hand.

I love it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Apollo Emeka, doctor Apollo, Emeka, thank you so much.

Apollo Emeka: Thanks, Julie.

Julie Harris Oliver: You've been listening to the other 50% a Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. Thank you to Dr. Apollo Emeka for the [01:05:00] conversation. Special thanks to Jay Rowe, Danny Rosner and Allison McQuaid for the music. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcast and rate and leave a review.

If you have a company and would like to sponsor the podcast, please reach out. You can find me in my work @julieharrisoliver.com. If you're looking for simple, yet effective tools to bring to your production or even just want some help in starting to talk about it, give me a call. I'd love to work with you.

Thanks for listening. See you next time.

EP 230: Becky Morrison

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] Becky Morrison, welcome back to the other 50%.

Becky Morrison: It is my joy to be back with you. Julie, you have a different last name now?

Julie Harris Oliver: I do. I got married. Yeah, patriarchy.

I liked his last name better than the one I had, so I took it anyway. You listen to episode two 20, whatever, to get my full 10 minute rant on name changing.(223) , it has been a while since we've spoken. I wanna say, three years maybe. So I wanna have a quick catch up.

So I talked to you on episode 187 which I, I have to think was around three years ago. So if people wanna hear your entire origin story, go listen to episode 187. You can find it on the website, theotherfiftypercent.com. And it's probably still an Apple podcast if you search for it there. So give us the truncated version.

You are the founder of The Light .Go.

Becky Morrison: Yes, I am the founder and CEO of the Light, which is a commercial production company that's [00:01:00] dedicated to production, innovation, diversity, equity, inclusion, progressive production values, and really questioning and reevaluating the whole production paradigm itself.

Julie Harris Oliver: I love that.

And I think about you all the time as I'm doing this work and thinking about things, and I've quoted you in a million different meetings. So I wanna hear from you. Let's, oh God, where to even start? Let's go back to, I know you can talk really, clearly about kind of the history of film production and how it was set up.

So why don't we start there? How has this set up a hundred years ago and how's it been going?

Becky Morrison: How's it been going? Well, I'll start with how's it been set up? , yeah, it's really interesting. I've never, I never was somebody who particularly was drawn to history until I got further on in my career in production and I started to realize that so many things that we do don't make sense.

And I was like, why? Why? Who set this up? Who thought of this? This makes no sense. [00:02:00] And so I became like a voracious reader and researcher in when it comes to the origins of the production process, like you said. So I've done a lot of reading of articles and things like that, and what's interesting about it is that it is a little bit challenging to piece together.

I think one, probably because. It's people aren't interested in it, it's kind of boring.

Julie Harris Oliver: This is the way we've always done it. Isn't that good enough?

Becky Morrison: Exactly. And I think that one real thing when it comes to producers and production in general is that it benefits from the obscurity that we have as producers.

The smoke and mirrors of the behind the scenes itself is both intentional and useful for producers. As we hide our methods of doing things, it's, it's really like focus on what's in front of the screen, not what's going on back here. So what I did find was that, you know, Hollywood first began really as a response to people on the East Coast [00:03:00] wanting to get away from Thomas Edison, who I didn't realize was a straight up gangster, that guy, they don't teach you that in seventh grade.

Thomas Edison is a gangster. He essentially, you know, cause film, uh, he was one of the first people to be fabricating and inventing motion picture cameras in America and the celluloid in the film. And he created an association, a little mafia called the M P A A, I think that's, it's called MPAA. And it was, it had a lot.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm sorry. Did, did you just call the MPAA a mafia??

Becky Morrison: I did. You can quote me on it. ,

Julie Harris Oliver: Becky Morrison said that. Okay.

Becky Morrison: and he, like, he basically, if you wanted to make films on the East coast in New York, New Jersey, at that time, like at the turn of the century, you had to do so at the behest of Thomas Edison.

He had to grant you the ability to be able to make films. And George Eastman of Eastman Kodak was part of [00:04:00] that little clique. So they controlled the actual celluloid itself. So he was, Thomas Edison was ruling over that situation. So a lot of the early upstart filmmakers, they were called the Independents at the time.

They left the East Coast and went to California.

Julie Harris Oliver: I had never heard this ever to get away from Thomas Edison.

Becky Morrison: That was one of the factors. Yeah. And uh, there are other factors too, right? Obviously the weather being one, the California, you know, having big the days of sunshine. Exactly. There's, there were other factors, but that was a big one because at that time, because there was still just railroad travel, they could go make films in California and like Thomas Edison's henchman couldn't really stop them because they were so geographically far away.

, and what's interesting is that those independents, they were the ones who became these huge studios that we know of now. They were the Warner Brothers. They were fox, they were those ones who, you know, we think of as huge conglomerates now, but at the time they were really upstart [00:05:00] independent filmmakers.

So, you know, thinking about people landing in, in Hollywood, let's say around 1915, at this point, they start to design a process around making motion pictures because motion pictures had already hit the scene. Like in 1905, Nickelodeons were opening and people were lined up around the blocks wanting to see motion pictures.

They had a nickel in their hand and they were like, give us movies, give us movies. And the people in Hollywood were like, whoa, we can't make them fast enough to fulfill the demand. So we have to figure out a way of making these that's more efficient.

Julie Harris Oliver: We gotta mass produce these things.

Becky Morrison: Exactly. Cuz at the time they were making them one motion picture at a time, and the director was responsible for everything.

The director wrote it. Filmed it, directed it, edited it, everything. So that was slow. And they were only able to make a movie at a time. So, uh, person that I often reference is Thomas Ince, who [00:06:00] was the first person who designed the shooting script and realized, wait a minute, we can film things out of order to make this more efficient.

And actually we can break up the roles. We can have a cinematographer, we can have an editor, we can have a director. And by putting those things together, we can churn out movies much faster. And if you also think about that time period, what was happening around then is like one Henry Ford's assembly line came out in 1913.

So they were looking around like, oh, the factory assembly line model had just been revealed. So they're like, huh, we'll make Hollywood a factory of dreams. Like, we'll model it off that and also World War I was going on. So if you think also about the time that they were immersed in looking at the militarized combat of World War I, and so in a lot of ways the reason why production feels so militarized and factory-like.

Is because that's exactly how it was designed.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's the movie industrial complex.

Becky Morrison: Exactly, [00:07:00] exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: So that, , I think we can intuit from that, that the culture of it became very direction and control, top down, militaristic, do what I say,

don't ask questions.

Becky Morrison: A hundred percent. And actually what was interesting really early on, in many listeners may know this, that there were a lot of women in Hollywood mm-hmm.

In the early days really because it was a new industry and it was not yet gendered. The way a lot of other work was. So they couldn't, they didn't know at first like, is this man's work? Or is this woman's work? Like, it's gotta be one.

Julie Harris Oliver: How much money is it gonna make?

Becky Morrison: There we go. That's right Julie. So when, you know, in, in the 1920s then, , there was a recession and then Wall Street got into Hollywood because they realized how much money could be made and they brought the whole culture of the boardroom and of Wall Street.

And that was really when women started to get pushed out of Hollywood in massive numbers from the late 1920s. Women [00:08:00] were not really represented again until the mid 1970s in the way they had been before the mid 1920s in Hollywood.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wow. So then as, as it got, I think it started making a bunch of money and the investors, and I think a lot of power came with that.

And then it really became, I'm, I'm gonna say it, it became kind of an abusive culture that weeds people out or treats them badly for many, many years. And because it's a place where people, you know, dream about getting into it, people have put up with a lot of nonsense for a lot of years anyway, cut to now we're trying to

make a change.

Becky Morrison: We are, yeah, I'd love to speak on that actually, cuz I think it's this very something that we don't often talk about is that relationship between the abuse and the desire to be in this industry. Mm-hmm. And how we, and I can speak for my own personal experience, can conflate those [00:09:00] things as being one that the, you know, as a little girl, I watched movies and I dreamt of like one day working in the movies and growing up in New York and seeing everything filming on the streets of New York, you know, with the motor homes and the honey wagons.

I was like, it's thrilling. Yeah. And so when I first got into it, the, that magic of movie making was very quickly mixed together with the abuse, with the exhaustion, with the. Being in the trenches feeling and it all got mixed together. And I think that's one of the reasons it's a little bit diff difficult to unpack or even imagine that there is another way of doing things because we don't think of those as separate, but really they are.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and

there's a, I think there's some pride in like, I've made it, it's so hard and I've made it

Becky Morrison: exactly that. We wear the diff the challenge like as a badge of honor. Like, yeah, I drank 14 Red Bulls today and I only slept two hours and I [00:10:00] smoked a pack of cigarettes. Yeah. This is production, like, there is that like feeling about it that we're taught in the culture Yeah.

To, to glorify that in a way.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and I think there's also a real swell right now if it's not sustainable, it breaks people, it breaks bodies, it's, you know, it's unhealthy. And so, let's talk about how to break those apart and how to do it differently.

Becky Morrison: Yeah. I think what's interesting about now also is the generation that's coming up, you know, we've talked about this too, like Gen Z, they just have a very different tolerance.

I e a lack of tolerance for working in the way that my generation was able to work or willing to work. That we were like, oh, okay, I guess that's okay that you said that to me, or that, you know, I'm not gonna get paid for the work I did, or whatever it was. We took it in a way that they're too,

Julie Harris Oliver: well, they're onto us.

They're onto everybody. They're I, they're onto, they're onto capitalism. I remember Michael Moore talking about like, the [00:11:00] way they kept us is the American dream and the thought that someday you too are gonna be rich. So you gotta leave those rich people alone and let them do their thing, because someday you can also be, and I think Gen Z is like, guess what?

That's bullshit. They're gonna be rich because they're oppressing the rest of us. And so we don't have to put up with all of that. Mm-hmm. And so there's gotta be a better way where you can do this and fulfill your dream and not, not

be abused and take it.

Becky Morrison: Yeah. Exact. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that there is a way to, to unpack those two, that there is very truly, this real alchemy that gets created when you bring a group of people together, each with their own roles, each with a passion for storytelling in this industry.

And we work together collectively as a team on making something creative art.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's kind of getting back to let's put on a show.

Becky Morrison: Yeah. You mean like getting back to you in the se in the vaudeville sense or like

Julie Harris Oliver: just like, just like in the attitude [00:12:00] of, you know, but it, it's, let's do some magical creative thing in a way that's really great.

Becky Morrison: Exactly. I mean, that's why we're here at the end of the day. I mean, like, if you're an electrician, you could be an electrician in a construction, in in building management or, and in many different places we need electricity in our everyday lives. But if you choose to be an electrician on set, you're there because you do have a love of the craft and of the process of being, you know, collaborating with other people to make something.

That's ultimately creative. That's why we're there. So I think it is important to kind of tap back into that, that very, that childlike thing, that excitement, that passion and ignite that back in people because it is, it is inside of all of us and it was always there from the beginning. And sometimes it can become dormant or lay it covered over after years and years and years of working in a certain way and being treated a certain way.

And that we can, you know, dissolve all those crusty layers and just tap [00:13:00] back into the, that light. Joy. Yeah. Joy. Joy.

Julie Harris Oliver: And, , is that hard to do?

Becky Morrison: , I would say that it is, that's a good question. I would not personally say that it's hard. I would say that it requires a willingness to be uncomfortable and it requires doing something different than what's been done before.

So that in and of itself is different and is challenging, but I don't personally relate to that as hard.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, it's funny cuz I think it's, I think it's hard and it's not hard. Like it's, it's simple. It's, I think it's, there are easy steps to do and sometimes it's the yes. The change that's hard is the will to do it.

That's hard. It's the coming up against power structures that are inflexible. That's hard.

Becky Morrison: Well, I think hardness is so much a part of what, of the old paradigm also, it's like what we were just talking about, it is like hardness is the old paradigm, which is a very [00:14:00] masculine, construct. So I think what, what changes something that's already very hard is softness, is flexibility, malleability, innovation, those kinds of, those kinds of things.

So I think that coming into something that's very established and hard and trying to change it in a way that's hard isn't going to get us to the promise land. It requires a different, you know, kind of setting.

Julie Harris Oliver: So I know that you are doing it. So what does it look like?

Cause I think you do a lot of short form, right? So you have a lot of opportunities to set up a production and set up a culture, and I know you think about that very intentionally.

So what are some of the things you do if you think, oh, I have this new job coming in. I'm about to hire a bunch of people, I'm about to set up a set. How do you think about that and how do you set your intention?

Becky Morrison: The first thing that I would say is, is the kind of the umbrella that it all sits inside of is something that I call production experience design.

So first of all, knowing and thinking of the [00:15:00] production experience is something that's malleable and that can be designed, you know, cuz we talked about that. It was designed a hundred years ago by some guys in top hats who were riding around in horse drawn carriages and smoking cigars. They designed it and then after that we've been replicating it pretty much unconsciously for the past century.

And that what I really am passionate about is encouraging all of us and all of you out there who work in production to realize that we can consciously design the experience that we have on set. We don't have to just replicate what we've been told. A lot of that doesn't, is not a fit for our world anymore.

So when I have a production coming up, or with PR production in general, I think, okay, how would I design this experience if I could start from a blank slate, from the orientation of the people who are on set, if the intention is for them to leave feeling better than they arrived. If the intention is

Julie Harris Oliver: wait, that, that alone is a revolutionary statement.

Yes, so you're gonna be here for 12 hours and you're gonna leave [00:16:00] feeling better than you arrived. Okay, carry on.

Becky Morrison: That is the principle orientation that I would, I, I start from, because I think it's possible, to design an experience. Same way, if you go on a ride at Disneyland, you're not gonna get off of it and be like, grumpy.

I mean, maybe, but for most people, they leave feeling elated after, you know, after you get off the incr coaster, you feel elated. And that's designed, it was designed to have you feel elated at the end. So I very similarly with a production experience, you can design it so that people feel anything. You can design it so that they feel exhausted.

You could design it so that they feel mistreated. You could design it so that they feel uplifted. You could design it so that they feel, you know, elated. You can design it in the same way that a, a writer can write a screenplay to leave the audience feeling in whatever way they choose at the end. We can do the same with the production experience.

So if I start from a place, it's like, okay, I want people to feel better when they leave, set them when they arrived. I want people to feel. , [00:17:00] connected to each other. I want people to feel respected and cared for in some capacity. One, because it's better for them, but also it's better for the production.

It's better for the thing that we're all making if we're really in it together. That's usually the starting point

Julie Harris Oliver: and does that become a whole nother job, or does that become just a different way that you work?

Becky Morrison: I think it becomes a whole other job. I think there's ways to do it inside of the jobs that we already have, but I really think it's a whole other role on set in the same way that we have an intimacy coordinator or a COVID compliance officer, because otherwise, who's gonna be doing this, production?

They busy. They are busy. I'm in pro. You can't give one more thing to production to do. Right? Everybody out there in production, I think you would agree with me.

Julie Harris Oliver: They're going, what? Now? I gotta make it a ride.

,

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So you're proposing a whole nother, A whole nother, yeah.

You can't [00:18:00] write that. You can't write that word. Whole nother with an N You're proposing a whole nother position that is really in charge of. The crew experience really?

Becky Morrison: Is that what you're saying? That is what I'm saying. I think for it to be fulfilled to the level that I see it possible, it does have to be another position.

Yep.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then how are you thinking about that intersecting with, , like the d e I work? Is that helping to create a more diverse space? Is I think it's helping to create a more inclusive environment and a better experience. Tell me how all those things intersect.

Becky Morrison: Yeah, I think they're all, there's so many, , positive results that would come out of being oriented around the experience that people have on set and, when we talk about that, it's the crew, it's the client or it's the talent.

It's everybody who's there. If you think about it, it's very unusual for there to be such a large group of people in an environment and there's no one there to really guide their experience or focus on their [00:19:00] experience. It's like we just don't do that in other areas, other industries.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's like the cruise director,

Becky Morrison: it's cruise director, summer camp counselor,

Julie Harris Oliver: chief, chief of staff.

Is it like a chief of staff job?

Becky Morrison: I, I really see it as the person who's directing the crew.

Cuz if you think about it, the director's directing what's happening in front of the camera. The AD is, telling people what comes next and keeping the crew on schedule. But there's no one directing the crew to be inside of the vision, to be mobilized as a team working well together.

That role doesn't currently exist on set. But if you think about it, that role exists in so many other industries. Like you have a coach in, sports, you have an orchestra conductor, you have people, you have a camp counselor, you have in corporate America. We understand that like we, it's important to get a team in a high performance environment.

You want the team to be connected and working as a team. But the way it works right now [00:20:00] on set is that people show up. Sometimes they walk in, they look around, they're like, am I in the right place? I guess so. I see someone I know why wouldn't even talk to me. Yeah, they eat breakfast, they go with their department, and then they work within their department.

For the day, and because everyone's so good, things get done. But it's very rare, and I've worked with hundreds of directors that the director or anyone will actually address the crew as a unit and get them mobilized inside of this project that we're doing. Sometimes that does happen with directors, but it's a very specific personality, and that's really not inside the director's role on its own.

Julie Harris Oliver: So it reminds me of that, , remember that viral video during Covid of Tom Cruise yelling at everybody about the covid protocols? It, it's sounding like, like what if that were, , a preemptive at the beginning that kind of rallying the truth, but in a [00:21:00] kind. Kind

way.

Becky Morrison: Exactly. Great, great example. Yeah. And some people do do that.

Like I've heard things about Joey Soloway that they do things like that on set, or Greta Gerwig or the Daniels certainly do, you know, people do do things on set.

Julie Harris Oliver: Lynn Shelton did.

Becky Morrison: Okay. Yeah. And, and so, but the thing is that all of I'm, I imagine Ava Du Verne might, but these are all people that have other functions on set.

So I'm talking about having somebody who's really dedicated to, you know, crew relations to the experience and to getting people inside of, of the vision.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's

so interesting. Cause I know a lot of people, myself included, have been focused on helping the leadership of a production. Gain some of those skills, you know, and have those skills and, and make it required as part of leadership skills on a crew.

Is that, that people also need to have some sort of, , culture building or diversity and inclusion or some sort of skills that everyone needs to additionally [00:22:00] acquire these as kind of a leadership requirement, I mean, in the world right now. Right. , but it sounds like you're saying, I mean, I say that as if I'm like reading between the lines.

You're explicitly saying it's probably gonna require a whole other person on set who's full-time job that is.

Becky Morrison: I think it depend, it depends on the circumstances and it's, I certainly don't wanna dis discredit the, the idea of people learning this stuff themselves. I think that's really important for people to do it themselves.

I just,

Julie Harris Oliver: well I think it also needs

to happen cuz you can't have people at the top who have no regard for the work ultimately undermining the work that's happening.

Becky Morrison: Completely. I, I just know in working on set, if you want something to be paid attention to, there has to be somebody whose role it is to pay attention to it.

Like I, I mean I, I've been on sets before, you know, back in the day that there were like short budget films, low budget films, I did that shorts where we didn't have a makeup person. We're like, we don't want a person, we want it to look [00:23:00] natural. But then the come on's hair look crazy. And it was like, no one's paying attention.

And then we get into the edit and we're like, oh my gosh, their hair looks crazy. Of course, cuz there were all these people on set, but it was nobody's role to pay attention to it. So if you want, that's why the wardrobe person's, paying complete attention to the wardrobe. That's why you have the departments.

I,

Julie Harris Oliver: I do that once on a, a commercial and it was so low budget cuz it was spec and, and the talent just said he would bring a couple sweaters. We were like, fine, we don't need a, we don't need a wardrobe person until we get in post. Need a big stain on a sweater. We could get it out. I mean, so yeah, I take your point.

Becky Morrison: You can take the whole

thing down. Right? It's, it, it's so in the, in the way that if you want something to be handled, there needs to be someone there to do it. The same way with sustainability. Like if you wanna have an eco-friendly set and you wanna have metrics around the carbon impact, there has to be somebody dedicated to it.

You can't, who's gonna do that? Uh, like. Uh, there's no, there has to be somebody. So [00:24:00] I think when it comes to de and I, and, and I don't even really wanna speak about those as a unit. I mean, let's speak about them as separate things cuz the I is really what we're talking about here. Yeah. That even let's say if you're talking about diversity and wanting to have those metrics reported, who's doing that?

Like there has to be somebody whose role it is to do that. And I think it's the same with inclusion, which is what we're talking about here. Uh, I just read this great quote actually by Priya Parker who said, diversity is a potentiality that needs to be activated. Hmm. And I love that because it's, she's saying, or the way I hear what she's saying is that diversity is the bringing together of people from different walks of life, but that in its, uh, of itself is not enough to activate the potential and the payoff of having those people there.

Something has to be done to bring it out. And what, what that is, is what I'm talking about. Yeah. Which is an inclusive production experience, is in how do you then [00:25:00] have those people feel safe, feel good, feel connected, feel in the flow? How do you have them get to know each other? How do you have all the richness of those different experiences activated on set?

It's not simply gonna happen by bringing those people into the old production model, because the old production model tells us all that we don't matter, that we are replaceable cogs in a machine, and the only not welcome matter are above the line. Which is also a term that I like will not use. Like it's literally like you are either above this line and you matter, or you're below the line and you don't matter.

And if you're below the line, you don't matter. So how is anybody going to be bringing the richness and of their lived experience to a project if they're receiving those signals explicitly or implicitly when they arrive on set?

Julie Harris Oliver: That's it. How

do you do that?

Becky Morrison: , so the way that you do it is really thinking about their experience.

So I'll give you some [00:26:00] practical examples of what I mean by that. well, I'll tell you three things that we do on our set and the intentions behind them because I do think that the things themselves matter less than the actual intention of those things.

Okay, so here's an example. Greeting that is the intention greeting when people arrive on set welcoming, have like creating a moment of people being welcomed. Let's say that word instead of greeting

Julie Harris Oliver: the bar is low, is it not? The bar is so low. Could you say hello when I come?

Becky Morrison: So sad, but it's real. But it's real.

Yeah, it's totally real. So let's say beat number one, welcoming. When people are arriving on set, they feel welcomed. So that can be done in many different ways. I don't know, there's pro infinite number ways you can do that. The way that we do that on set is we have someone who we call a greeter who's stationed by the entrance and they welcome people onto set.[00:27:00]

Another thing we do on our sets is that we have name tags pre-labeled for everyone. The intention underneath that is to create a sense of belonging. So when people arrive on set and they have all the name tags laid out, you can see this look on their face. At first they're like searching kind of anxiously and then they see their name and their face like lights up and relaxes.

And it's a way of unconsciously like telling them, you belong here. Yes, we were waiting for you. Welcome

Julie Harris Oliver: again. So simple. What's on those name tags?

Becky Morrison: We have, we have magnetic name tags. Cause I'm a big, I also do not like it when I'm given a name tag that requires me to pin something into my clothes, create a hole inside of my clothes

Julie Harris Oliver: or a sticker.

Do you put on the outside? Do you put it on the

Becky Morrison: off? We did used to do stickers back in. Just put

Julie Harris Oliver: it on your boob. Like where do you put it?

Becky Morrison: Yeah. Well that is a d that's the user's choice. They can put it wherever they want, but we have magnetic metal name tags that are pre-labeled with everybody's name, crew [00:28:00] position, and pronouns and, uh, they put that on and wear it around set.

And what I've realized, especially in a shorter format, like, like commercials, is that by everybody knowing everybody else's name, it's, it creates a whole other level of, , relationship, of inclusion, of communication. It just changes the whole dynamic of the crew when everybody knows each other's names.

Julie Harris Oliver: A hundred percent.

And let me share a little anecdote here. , two, two things I wanna say in what you just said. , one thing, I just, in my last job we did a million, , production workshops around d e i and one of the questions, , that would be asked would be, you know, what's something that made you feel included on set?

Or what's something that someone did that made you feel not included? So many times people would say, you know, they didn't learn my name. I was there for six months. They called me grip. One guy said they called me Obama cuz I was the black guy on the set. [00:29:00] I mean, the bar is so freaking low that if learning people's names will make such a difference, like just do that.

You, it's, it's incredible. I mean, can you imagine any other job where you'd work there for any period of time and people wouldn't learn your name? Like, hey, analyst, like, hey, engineer. I mean, it's ridiculous. , the second thing you said, so very casually, , name, position, and pronouns. Yes. , pronouns is a big deal.

A lot of people are still like, what the heck is that? And what does that mean? Just speak to that for a second. Why do you include pronouns?

Becky Morrison: We include pronouns because they're important. It's important for people who have, , you know, different kinds of pronouns that are not as mainstream and historically used to actually have people know how they wanna be referred to and be able to be referred to in the way that they want.

And it's also important for, , everybody to have those, in my opinion, so that we normalize, , people being able to choose their pronouns.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think that's the thing. It it [00:30:00] normalizes it and it creates a space where, oh, this is no big deal. You can, you can have whatever pronoun else you want. Exactly.

No, no big, no big whoop. We're just gonna respect that.

Becky Morrison: And it's part of, you know, this whole idea, I think a main tenant in what I'm talking about here is really a re a rejection of the dehumanizing historical nature of production. Like so much about that traditional production process is dehumanizing.

It's intentionally dehumanizing. That whole idea of also you're replaceable, I mean, you're replaceable, you're grip number three. We don't actually care that your name is Joe, because you're grip number three to us, and we can have another grip number three in here tomorrow. So it is a revolutionary act to be like, we do care that your name is Joe.

We care what your pronouns are, we care what snacks you like to eat, or your dietary restrictions and our call sheets also have photos of everyone on it. We care what, how you wanna express yourself in this world. We see you. And if you're not here, Joe, we're gonna notice, you [00:31:00] know, that is a totally different context for people to work inside of.

Yeah. And in a, in a, in a creative industry, it produces much better results when people feel the way that I'm describing versus the way that they're just in a mechanical, industrial environment. Because this is a creative industry. We're not, you know, making widgets.

Julie Harris Oliver: Right. What's the third thing?

Becky Morrison: A third thing that I think is really easy to implement is, you know, the intention behind that. Would be, , unity. That's what I call it. And that happens in the safety meeting. So to have a moment, and that can be anything we're you're bringing the crew together to acknowledge the fact that, hey, we're all here.

We're all a team, we're working in this, on this together, and we have a moment to set that. As a group before we get into the day or before we get into the, you know, all the different hours and things that are gonna come to have a moment of unity that can happen. How we achieve that happens in so many different ways.

Like I got, I did something on set [00:32:00] yesterday, which is really fun actually, which I got from the Daniels that they do this, they really integrate movement on their sets. They do a lot of different things, but they have an exercise. Have you seen this where they mm-hmm. Shake their hands. Okay. So I'm not sure how well it's gonna play in audio form, but essentially everybody, they get the whole crew to put the right, their right hand in the air, and then they shake it four times and count out loud.

And then they shake the left hand, right foot. Left foot. The hokey pokey basically. Three times. Three times, yeah. Two times, one time. So it sounds like, did you say ready? Everybody Okay. Right hand up in the air. 1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2. 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1. And everyone's shaking their hands and their feet.

And what is fun about that is that it's, it's like impossible to do that with your body without smiling. Like I think it's actually like physically impossible. Cause looking [00:33:00] around the room, it is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And it's a low bar for people to participate and,

Julie Harris Oliver: and you can't

do it great. Like you can't have any attachment to you.

It's ridiculous. I'm gonna be the best one at this nonsense.

Becky Morrison: Exactly. So it's stupid and it's silly, but it's fun and it's a way to just get everybody to move their bodies, shake it up and laugh. Before you start the day, you know, I've also done other things that we've talked about too, like where we ask everybody to say a word about how they'd like to feel at the end of the day.

And then you go around in the circle and everybody says a word like inspired, respected, you know, all of the appreciated. You can go around a circle. There's lots of different ways to achieve it. So to recap, the three ways that I just were recommended, which all really happened in the first on our sets.

They happened within the first like few moments of set, first half hour, which would be welcoming, belonging and unity.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and then you set the tone, which sends the message, oh, this is [00:34:00] gonna be different. Exactly. And also might give the hint, oh, maybe I can't be a dick here. Maybe I should watch myself.

Not that people have that intention, but I think people have that habit.

Becky Morrison: It's true. And actually it doesn't stop people from being a dick, that's for sure. But it, it almost like makes people's being a dick like more obvious. Yeah. And what, what's really interesting, and this happened on the set the other day, so I'm doing this thing and I'm, I, I'm talking about The Light's philosophy on set.

And I can always see when talking to a group, some people are really into it. They're absorbing everything I'm saying. And some people are looking at me like this dumb be like, when is she gonna stop talking? Like they're giving me like God guy. Yeah. And in those moments it's hard because I'm a human being.

Like I don't really want people to be looking at me like they wanna kill me, but I am speaking to who I know they are going to become. At the end of the day, at the end of the production and not who they are in that moment. And so often when those people are [00:35:00] coming with their, you know, being a dick energy, it's because they have so much trauma because they've been mistreated by production in the past.

And I don't really speak to that. I don't lower down to that plane. I really raise it to the place where I know that they're gonna be by the time we get to the end of the day and they feel connected and cared for and respected.

Julie Harris Oliver: And

have you seen them make that journey in a day?

Becky Morrison: Yes. A hundred? Yes. Yes.

Reliably. A hundred percent of the time I've seen the crew. Cuz what we're talking about here is really shaping the energy of the crew, you know, like shaping the way that that organism. Feels, and so a hundred percent of the time, what I'm talking about with production experience design, it reliably delivers people into a different place.

And you may have a holdout, there may be like one [00:36:00] person who doesn't quite get there, but I would say for the most part, like the vast majority of people can't help themselves. They get swept, they get swept up in it, and they do feel different by the end of the day. And if they don't, that's okay too. It's like they're welcome to be however they wanna be, but the group dynamic, you know, tends to win out.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's funny, I was, , talking to MyKhanh Shelton the other day, and I was just listening to it again this morning, but we were talking about. How so often in doing this work, we've been so conditioned, especially as women, to be apologetic about it, to be like, mm, sorry to bother you, but we're, we're gonna do things differently here.

Or, sorry to bother you, but we're gonna be nice on the set. Like, and I, I, I think that's such, uh, such a deeply ingrained just, just to be apologetic about things like this. And in this regard, you really can't be, and you really have to just push forward. And how do you, , what kind of self-talk does [00:37:00] that take in the face of resistance to really push through and continue doing the work?

Becky Morrison: It really has to do with like, where does my loyalty lie? That's what I ask. That's what I say to myself. Am I loyal to my ego and feeling comfortable and looking good? Or am I loyal to creating a change? And am I loyal to the difference that this is gonna make for people at the end of the day? And when I can keep my eye on that, the second one, then that is what pulls me through the embarrassment, the humiliation, which often happens, the discomfort, the all of that is okay when I'm, it's in service of something that I really care about

Julie Harris Oliver: because it's going to be uncomfortable there.

There are times doing this where you're just like God, . It's, it's such a spiritual practice, right? To [00:38:00] keep that vision and to keep that motivation and to keep that, , uh, as you said, that loyalty to the higher good, that it doesn't matter what you're going through as a person. Cuz imagine how, if, if it's hard for the white lady to stand up and do the things.

Imagine how hard it's been for everybody else for the last a hundred years.

Becky Morrison: Exactly. I think especially, you know, we're talk, I'd say production experience design includes, but is not exclusive to the work of diversity and inclusion. But it is a similar kind of mechanism that we're talking about. And I think in the work, cuz I'm also somebody who's very passionate about diversity and inclusion and, , personal growth and, and all, and all of those kinds of things.

And it definitely takes being willing to be uncomfortable. Like there's no way to do the work of justice in any of its formats without being willing to dismantle all of that stuff in ourselves as white people, as women, as a producer. I mean, like, I've taken on all of these ways of being in ways of [00:39:00] seeing things and it's like if I wanna change things out there in the world, I have to dismantle them in myself.

And that is always going to be uncomfortable. Extremely uncomfortable because what's comfortable is maintaining the constructs that I have now and like, sitting on my couch, I'm just like eating ice cream and not like, it's fine engaging in any of it, but if we have a, a passion for justice, like we have to be willing to, you know, fall down and say things that are embarrassing and wrong and get blasted for it, and then just get back up and do it again and try again.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, you have to, you have to be willing to face the injustice if you're gonna find the justice. And think that, , I, I don't know what that is, but that, that can be really confronting and it's easy to not wanna

do that.

Becky Morrison: It is. Yeah. but again, it's, I always come back to, for myself, like, what is my life for?

Like, why was I born? You know, I took incarnation. I don't know, it doesn't really may even matter what your beliefs [00:40:00] are, but at some point, like, I wasn't here and now I am. And that goes for all of us. And I feel like I'm here for this. I'm here for this purpose. And so for me, that comes before everything else that comes before me feeling comfortable in the moment or, and any of, or any of that stuff.

And like you said, it's a spiritual process and I feel I'm very lucky that I have had, uh, a very spiritual upbringing and I've been in the spiritual path for a long time. So I have those tools of when, like, the shame comes flooding through my body, like allowing it to move through me, transmuting it, like, and moving through that and getting up and keeping going, and not letting the, those really intense feelings that can come up, take me out of the game.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, not

to be stopped by it

Becky Morrison: exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: To recognize, oh, this is a feeling that is indeed going through my body and it's gonna take a minute and I have to let it go through and not let it stop me and fixate on me and make everyone in the room take care of me, [00:41:00] because I'm feeling this

feeling,

Becky Morrison: oh my God.

No, definitely not that totally not bad. Oh God, definitely not that. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's, it's, you know, none of this stuff is a, is a path for the faint of heart. It's not the easy path, but that's the good one. You know, it's like carving a path where there wasn't one before and that's obviously gonna take grit and it's gonna, we're gonna get cut and it's, you know, there's gonna be things along the way, but it's so worthwhile like to look back at the end of that and say, Hey, I carved that and, you know, hopefully it's gonna make things better for people.

Like, that's what I really want. I really want things to be better for people on set.

Like,

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, that's a real legacy thing. I mean, to have that perspective of I'm not just here to make the Nike commercial, I'm here to change the process by which the Nike commercial is made.

Becky Morrison: Yes, Julie. Exactly, exactly, exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: So part of it is you've, you've started the revolution [00:42:00] in your own company, and that's kind of your incubator, right? Is that that's where you get to experiment and prove it out and do proof of concept. And then how do you have a plan for evangelizing this across the industry?

I mean, you're here, Lord knows everyone in the business listens to this podcast. , so , how do you think about, about really rolling it out broadly?

Becky Morrison: Yeah, cuz that is, that's exactly the, the ultimate goal. I mean, I feel like right now I have been doing this at my own company for many, many years and we have tried things that bombed, we've tried things that have been offensive.

We've tried, we've gotten feedback and, you know, made a lot of mistakes and, you know, have found some things that really work consistently. So what I'm focused on now is designing this repeatable architecture of the production experience, let's say, or some very coming up with a design that's, that's replicable on sets.

And what I would really love is then to be brought onto other productions. So let's say feature a series other people's [00:43:00] productions as this production experience designer. And, , do that on their sets as well. So that's really, that's the goal, to be able to do it for me to come up with this design, to do it on other sets.

And then I really see this becoming like a viable position for anybody. Like I don't, this isn't just the Becky Morrison show, you know? Like I think that this could be anybody, like, very similar to sustainability, right? I think that's a great parallel that the way that you had a few people at first who were doing, you know, making sets green sets and finding a way to measure the carbon impact.

And you have these consultants, there were only a few of them at first. I mean, I've been around a long time. We, I was been doing green sets for a long time and then all of a sudden they s sprouted up all around the world. And now you have all these people who are doing sustainability on set. So I see this as something very.

Similar to that, where there's a few of us who start doing it and then it really becomes something that is available across the board, across the world. And people are doing it in their own [00:44:00] ways, but all with this intention. And I think that it definitely has an impact on the bottom line. It has to, I mean, this is Hollywood, right?

Like there's no way anyone's gonna do anything out of the goodness of their heart.

Julie Harris Oliver: , yes. A I think there is a Covid budget line item that is now available for this. Yeah.

Becky Morrison: Where's that Covid money y'all? We need that Covid money

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. So the Covid budget line item is there. Let's repurpose that to cultural experience.

And I remember you talking to me about, , everything everywhere, all at once tell me what you said about that.

Becky Morrison: Everything everywhere. All at once. In addition to being a movie that I, I loved and, and obviously other people did too cause it won crazy. All the awards. All the awards everywhere. All at once.

, I think there, it's a really great proof of concept because they work in this way and I think there's people out there who do work in a very similar way to this already. So I'm not reinventing the wheel. What I'm offering is a way to do this reliably on set over and over and over again

Julie Harris Oliver: systematically.

Becky Morrison: [00:45:00] Exactly. So when you don't have directors like Daniels on set, how you can do this on set with any director, you know, and I think that what's. That's such a great proof of concept for so many reasons. When I was watching that movie in the theater, I knew nothing about how it was made, and I said, I turned to my friend next to me.

I go, I bet you a hundred dollars. I would bet more than a hundred dollars that, that the AD was not yelling at the PAs on this movie. You can

tell.

Julie Harris Oliver: You told me, I bet those people were dancing and then there's videos that they were

Becky Morrison: Exactly. You can tell from watching it a movie that is unrelenting, creative genius like that, that the people on set were having a good time making it.

That they were engaged. You can just tell from watching it and Exactly. And then when I, I've done like a huge deep dive now onto the whole behind the scenes. And of course that's what they were doing. They were dancing, they had mash massage chains. They were doing different things. They were engaging the whole crew.

There was gratitude and there was engagement and all that kind of stuff. And I think what that does [00:46:00] is that it gets people. Clicked in, which is what they want. Everybody from the parking pa to the gaffer, the key grip, everybody is now clicked in and they, they shot that movie. I'm, I don't wanna get my numbers wrong, but I feel it was like 28 days or something for 11 million, which is such incredible, incredible, limited resources for what it was.

And the reason they were able to do that was because of the way that people were engaged, because of the creative shorthand, because of the relatedness and the relationship and the unity of that team. So I feel like that is such a great selling point for this way of working, is that this is a way that you can get, like for example, on that movie, Larkin, Sippel and Daniels have worked together for a long time, and Larkin Sippel is the, the dp.

So you have many, many, many years of working together. You have a shorthand, right? Same with other members of the team. But you don't always have that luxury when you work on a production. Sometimes you're working with new people and this is a big conversation when it also comes [00:47:00] to diversity. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like lot of, they encourage you working

with

new people

Becky Morrison: and a lot of the reason that people say they don't, they don't wanna work with new people is because it's too risky, which is code for, I mean, that could be code for a lot of things, but one thing it's code for, I think is that I don't trust, I have a shorthand with this person.

I know. I trust them. I've been working with them a long time. They can, you know, they get me. I, I think that has a lot of value when it comes to working in production. And what I'm talking about is a way to design tho for those creative shorthands instantly so they don't have to take 10 years to create.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Cause

I think what you're looking for is to be creatively free and so presenting, I don't know, guardrails feels a bit too constricting, but, uh, but as you're saying, laying down the framework to create the environment where you can be creatively free as quickly as possible with whoever you're working with.

Becky Morrison: Exactly. Yeah. There's a great book I that [00:48:00] I, I'd read recently called, , the Art of the Gathering. By Priya Parker here. It's, and what I love about this,

Julie Harris Oliver: a 50% book club,

Becky Morrison: what I love about this book is, you know, she talks about how to design gatherings. So that could be a dinner party, it could be a conference, it could be your weekly marketing meeting, just the way that gatherings, , work best when designed.

And I think it has such a parallel to production right there, there is a way to design a gathering for maximum impact. To have an opening, a closing, to make sure you're inviting the right people, you set up how they're engaging. And she, you know, she talks about all those things and it, it's such a perfect example of why we need that on set.

We don't have that on set. Nobody has designed this gathering intentionally. So by just putting in a few simple beats that embed into the existing production process, that we can have a much more powerful. Way of working together than [00:49:00] what we have now.

Julie Harris Oliver: It makes me think of just kind of a micro example of that.

When I, , for a long time I was VP of sales at Entertainment Partners and we would do client dinners or we would invite 20 people to dinner and they may or may not know each other cuz we would do like a smattering of different companies. But they all had something in common, like they were probably at the same level or the same job or whatever.

And like, I'm, believe it or not, an introvert, the thought of going to dinner with 20 people, I'd rather die. My colleague Lisa Gewirtz. May she rest in peace. We all miss her very much. She would put these dinners together with structure. Like she could have written a book about gathering. And so it wasn't just this free for all, where you had moments of feeling like so awkward sitting at the table and I don't know this person and who do I talk to?

, but she would lead like a group conversation, like besides introducing people like, oh, you both have corgis discuss, which she knew about everybody in the most incredible way, but it would be, tell us [00:50:00] about your favorite vacation you ever took. And we would go around the table having one conversation.

So everybody was engaged, everybody was focused on the same thing. And there wasn't the opportunity for people to feel left out or to feel awkward or to be, you know, at the, as my friend Ayser Salman would say at the wrong end of the table where you're not having the good conversation. And so there's.

Something about that intentionality. Even as, like for me, I'm, as I said, I'm not a joiner. Like I don't, I don't wanna go to a meetup cuz I don't wanna do some free for all hike. But if there's something that has a beginning and an end and a, and a program where everybody is engaged, I'll do that all

day long.

Becky Morrison: Exactly. That's exactly what I'm talking, talking about is having set. Designed intentionally. The, the, the onset experience. And what's so interesting is that like, that is how the content that we're making is designed. It has a beginning, a middle, and an event. Yeah. Like when you go to the movies, that's what you expect to see.

It has an underlying structure to it. That's what, it's a container in those two hours, or [00:51:00] nowadays like three and a half hours, like when there's a container there. And inside of that, the experience is completely designed. It, it takes you on, on a ride. And, and I think there's, what I'm really interested in is creating that same parallel on set so that there's a container.

I love that, that way of talking about it too, that it's structured, it's a structured container, the onset experience, so there's a rigor in it and a design, and that people are engaged. Nobody's left out that we're gonna notice if somebody is, you know, missing from the team. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: And so you

know what to expect.

And so you have the structure within which. Then you can be free to be as, as creative and, , engaged and bring all your great ideas.

Becky Morrison: Exactly,

exactly. I feel like right now on set, you know, I, again, I work in commercials, so I. I really feel like if we were to go around on an average commercial set and ask the crew like, Hey, what are you working on right now?

Tell me [00:52:00] about this piece. Like what's it about and what's it for?

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, it's about $1000 a day.

Becky Morrison: If, if 25% of the people on set could answer that question, I would be impressed. I mean, most of the time they would probably know the name of the job, but they can't tell you much more than that. And that's such a missed opportunity for the production itself. You know, we're constantly complaining about how there's less and less resources.

We have less, our budgets are shrinking, our timelines are getting shorter. So all of those, those, , resources are becoming more limited, but we have so much that we can still tap into on set that's untapped, which is can easily be tapped into by communicating clearly, for example, or just telling people, oh, hey, that's, this is what the project is, this is what it's for.

This is how what you're doing connects to the greater vision. If people even get that. They will make be me making different [00:53:00] decisions. They may have different suggestions and see things that not other people can see because they now understand what they're doing. Yeah. But when they just come and they just pu, you know, l mic somebody up and then just go sit and are on their phone, it's a missed opportunity for the production not to have their contribution and also for that person to not be able to have the fulfillment that comes from being engaged creatively on the job.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Like what is the story we're trying to tell? What is, what are we trying to make people feel? Like, how different would it be if, say you're having a very sensitive interview and it's everyone's job on set to kind of hold space for that for a minute. How different would that be than just shut up and don't make any noise while you're scuffling around in

the back?

Becky Morrison: A hundred percent. I. Exactly. It's being active versus being, you know, absent.

Julie Harris Oliver: Worse than passive. Absent. Yeah. Checked out. Checked out.

Becky Morrison: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: All right. What did I not ask you that I should have asked [00:54:00] you? Oh, you talk about this all day long as we often do my

life.

Becky Morrison: This is pretty much all I'm gonna

talk about.

Julie Harris Oliver: We talk about, we have an ongoing text chat constantly about just this.

Becky Morrison: It's so

good, it's so juicy. ,

Julie Harris Oliver: well, to that point, I would say if you're engaging in this work, collect your allies. You know, there, there has to be not to, not to stay on the militaristic language, but we have to create an army to go in and make the change.

And I think you need to have people who are also in the trenches with you to talk to when it gets hard to bounce ideas off of, to have some inspiration to keep going when you've had a hard day.

Becky Morrison: Absolutely. I love that too, because the people in power are, uh, coalesced, they are associated, they are communicating.

There's all, all of that is happening when it comes to the status quo. So when it comes to those of us who are looking to do something different, to create a different way of working now and for the future, disrupting the industry, Viva. [00:55:00] Exactly. Yeah. We have to find each other and, and work together because it's certainly not gonna be any one of us on our own.

It's gonna take all of us together to disrupt.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, it has to be bottom up. It has to be top down. And as someone told me the other day, middle out.

Becky Morrison: Mm,

omnidirectional.

Yes. Yeah. Amen.

Julie Harris Oliver: All right. What do you wanna leave us with if, I'm trying to think of a good question to, to elicit some good advice, but maybe I'll just say, is there something you would like to leave us with?

A little favorite quote of inspiration perhaps.

Becky Morrison: Ooh. Well I just gave my little, my little Priya Parker.

Julie Harris Oliver: know you !Gave it

too early. You should have saved that

bad.

Becky Morrison: Nobody sent me a list of questions.

Julie Harris Oliver: Too

bad. Nobody prepped for this podcast.

, do you have a, , do you have like a meditation mantra? Is there what you center yourself in the beginning of the day?

Becky Morrison: I, I do. I mean, for myself, I. You know, I think that the [00:56:00] work, as we've talked about, it happens internally and externally.

So I do, I I actually work energetically on every production that I have. I don't talk about that very often.

Julie Harris Oliver: Say more about that, please.

Becky Morrison: Sure. Yeah. And it's funny cuz I think that like, you know, energy or wellness, all that stuff has a lot of stigma that I'm very also don't identify with. Like, that's not my vibe.

I'm from New York, you know, I get my nails done, I'm like, I, I, I not dippy,

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm not, I'm gonna say the kids these days, gen Z has been talking about vibe since they came in and you know, and we have all this, all this junk around talking about energy and all that stuff, you know, cuz it, I think as we were coming up that was so like fringe, but you know, vibe is completely mainstream and it's real for sure.

And, and we're, we're affecting energy in places. There's your permission to talk about your thing.

Becky Morrison: Thank you. It's so true. I [00:57:00] love the word vibe too. A hundred percent. Yeah. So when I, what I do energetically is I, I work with the energy of the crew, so I, I envision the crew, I envision the day, I envision the set and I.

Work energetically with that. Like I bring light into it, I imagine with, you know, my imagination, everybody working together well, things going smoothly. Another thing I do on, on set when I'm there pre physically is I sage the whole set. Like, I'm big believer in like clearing the energy of what had been there before, because you never know what was on that stage before.

Mm-hmm. And , I also imagine like the violet flame energetically on the set, clearing anything of lower frequency so that we can enter into a space or work inside of a space that is a blank slate rather than it's coming with all of the energy that was there before. So cleaning the energy, I'd say that's the main thing that I do is like clear out anything of lower frequency that was there so that people can work [00:58:00] together harmoniously, se smoothly, seamlessly.

Clearly. That's something I, I do on productions.

Julie Harris Oliver: I love that so much. And can you imagine if everybody did that?

Becky Morrison: I can,

Julie Harris Oliver: as a matter of fact. Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Cool. Thank you Becky Morrison.

Becky Morrison: My pleasure. Julie Oliver. Thank you so much.

Julie Harris Oliver: No, thank you so much.

EP 229: Karen Horne

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] Karen Horne, welcome to the other 50%.

Karen Horne: Hi, Julie. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you today.

Julie Harris Oliver: Me too. Now I know. Right now you're the SVP of Diversity, equity and Inclusion of North America at Warner Brothers Discovery.

Correct. That's impressive. , why don't you tell us what is in your scope?

Karen Horne: I have remit over everything our company does, , and even things that we should be doing or we wanna be doing, , in that, , through the diversity, equity, and inclusion lens. , and. Within North America. And so that means, , working alongside our business leaders, , , to help them embed d e i in everything they do, , working with our, , people and culture, which is what we call our HR teams, to make sure that our workforce is, , represented fairly, that they're counted fairly, that they're being promoted fairly, that they're being interviewed fairly.

, so working across workforce, , on the creative side, working with our, , teams who [00:01:00] oversee our pipeline programs, our content, our production programs to make sure that our productions are safe and inclusive places, , work, you know very well, Julie, , and, , , and working to make sure that our content is authentic content and that the stories we tell accurately reflect the people we tell them.

For or tell them to. , and, , just working across and making sure our, we have pipeline programs that, , provide access and opportunities for people wanting to, , break into our industry at all levels and in all areas.

Julie Harris Oliver: You are doing the Lord's work.

Karen Horne: Let, just let him shine down on me, please.

Julie Harris Oliver: Can we talk a little bit, let's just go through really quick your career and kind of how you led to this work.

Cause I think you started more of a creative role. , let's talk about how you got here.

Karen Horne: So, , you know, from the way back I studied broadcasting in college. I wanted to be Barbara Walters. , which as I get older, I recognize the [00:02:00] audiences get younger and they're like, and I'm always asking, do you know who Barbara Walters is?

And thankfully people still know who she is, but I wanted to be a broadcast journalist in studied broadcast journalism in school. And then the senior year of college, I got a job working for ABC and ended up at a ABC Sports. , and I am a huge sports fan. Some may call me obnoxious and I don't care because, you know, my teams are, you know, my teams and I'm gonna root for them.

But I'm, I'm a huge overall sports fan. I will watch Log Rolling, which was actually an Olympic or sport on wide world, world of sports at one time. Anyway, so I got a job working for ABC Sports. I worked for someone who, , was a rising star at the company and in the industry. And, , He was eventually promoted and, , moved to Los Angeles to be president of a ABC Entertainment and he moved me with him, , which is where I learned about the scripted part of it.

I, you know, worked on our shows and development and current programming, , and all aspects of the entertainment world. , you know, as a president of a network did, I [00:03:00] did everything. I read everything that come, came across the desk and learned about that. And I took classes about like, if you're gonna give notes, how to give notes, you know, to, you know, whether I hate this cuz it sucks or I hate this and this is why and how to develop a little bit more.

So I did that and then the person I worked for was promoted again and moved back to New York to be head of all of abc and I stayed in Los Angeles and ran a not-for-profit film organization called the Black Filmmaker Foundation. And I think it was really there that kind of cemented my love for.

Finding and nurturing new talent. , and, , I did that. And during that time, , while I was working there, I also sold a series to hbo. It was an adult animated series based on a comic book called Spawn. , it won three Emmys each year. That it, , , , three Emmys.

Julie Harris Oliver: Hold on, hold

on, hold on. You just said that so casually.

While I was doing a full-time job, I also sold a series to hbo o and,

Karen Horne: and I was pregnant and had my first child at the same time as well, so.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well that's [00:04:00] weird. Cause I thought women just kind of fell off the face of the earth when they had babies and didn't produce anything, huh?

Karen Horne: According to

some,

Julie Harris Oliver: oh my God.

Were you just doing that? On the

side, like, how'd you think?

Karen Horne: No, it it, because my husband is a huge comic book fan and found the property and, and we were like, , you know, look, I moved here from New York. And, , he, you know, I remember this cool guy and, and he was like, I wanna go to ComicCon. And I was like, what the heck is ComicCon?

And so, , he kept on saying, let's go, let's go. And I was like, it's in San Diego. I hadn't been to San Diego. And I was like, okay, fine, let's go. And he finds this property. Now he knows comic books and knows that world really well, finds this property and shows it to me. And it is like, you gotta look at this.

And I was like, oh no, it's a Archie's comic, like Richard Rich or like whatever, whatever. Veronica. Like I don't read this stuff. And, , and. I read it and I was like, oh my God, this is an amazing love story. And he was like a love story. This is just a greatest, like action. It's a black lead. The guy, the character's black, and he knew the artist [00:05:00] Todd McFarland from, , his work at Marvel when he drew spider-Man and, and reimagined him.

And, , , so he knew him and, and he actually fostered that relationship. But he was working at ,full circle, Warner Brothers at the time and couldn't do anything with it. So I took it to HBO where I sat, where my offices at, the Black Filmmaker Foundations was. I took it to HBO and actually worked with someone that Andy, my husband, had worked with earlier.

Sold it there and then produced it, developed it and produced it. So I kind of inherited the thing and, and, , yeah, and that's how it came. So it was really a kind of a whole Horne production. , but my name's on this credits, I developed it, worked with writers and doing the work that I do with writers and, and helped develop the look of it, which was very close to the comic book anyway, so, , yeah, that's how that came about.

Julie Harris Oliver: Very cool. ,

Karen Horne: but before the, before it actually premiered on HBO, Disney calls me and asked me if I would be interested in running what is now their ABC writer program [00:06:00] director program, and being a part of the creative team for what's now ABC Studios. It was Touchstone Studios back then. And so I did that job, and that's really kind of where I started with the pipeline world and working in, , finding and, and, and providing pathways for pipeline talent to come into our industry, which, you know, has historically, , been, , closed off to underrepresented talent.

, so I did that, , got pregnant with my second child and realized that I couldn't lead a department at Disney. , then. It's probably different now, but couldn't lead a department then and have two children. And so Nickelodeon had been pursuing me to create writing and talent development efforts there.

So I left Disney and went over to Nickelodeon, , where I created their talent development programs, their writing program, and , and then did that, worked in animation for a year before going to NBC Universal, , where I was for 10 and a half years. And while I was there, the programs that we [00:07:00] created were really considered some of the gold standard in the industry.

We created, , some things that I'm super, super proud of, , directing program, , specifically for women called Female Forward. In addition to our directing program for underrepresented male directors, , which is the Emerging directing program. We had a program for late night writers that changed the landscape in late night television.

, and really was the first place where women, , because it's his late night television is historically run by white guys. And so it was the first place where

Julie Harris Oliver: We all read Nell's book

Karen Horne: yes, exactly. And we had her in fact. And so, , anyway, so we created that late night writer's workshop and it was really groundbreaking in some of the most prolific writers now in that landscape came through that program and I'm super proud of that.

, and so we had, you know, a lot of programs there. , and then I, , left NBC Universal and came over to Warner. Then Warner Media and started there four days before we had to shut everything down and work from home. [00:08:00] So we built our teams remotely. And I think, you know, during the three years that the first three years there, we created probably about 20 different pipeline programs.

, , and, , and now, , with the discovery acquisition of our company, , I moved into a bigger role where I, , not only work alongside the people who run our pipeline programs and help do that, and I just, I just created one in celebration of our 100th anniversary of the company, which I'm super, super proud of.

And I will probably market alongside female forward in late night as one of the things in my career I'm most proud of. And that is we are, we're calling it just the Warner Brothers 100 anniversary short film initiative. And the company came to me and said, what can you do in celebration of our 100th anniversary?

, along the pipeline, you know, you know, with pipeline programs. And so I pitched an idea of reimagining some of, some, some of the most iconic Warner Brothers titles [00:09:00] that we could get the rights to, to do free and clear, , , and reimagining them through the lens of underrepresented filmmakers. And so, at a time where our company was cutting budgets and cutting personnel, I got a substantial budget to do this.

And so we, , partnered with six different film organizations and identified six, , underrepresented filmmakers who are now given money. , we're giving them $200,000 each, , to do a film that's under 20 minutes, just under 20 minutes.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, that's real money.

Karen Horne: That's real money. Yeah. Yeah. But not only are we giving them those money, we're giving them resources.

We, , are partnering with a producer, , who, who makes low budget films for Warner Bro, , Warner Brothers that, , so has like the infrastructure that they can go through, his payroll, his legal, his insurance, like he to set up the LLCs through him. And then they'll have access to the lot and have access to post and a lot [00:10:00] of the things that are expensive.

, but they'll have it at free or reduced fees as well.

Julie Harris Oliver: Incredible.

I wanna back up just a minute, and then I wanna dig into pipelines in general. Mm-hmm. You said at Disney you couldn't be a mother of two children and run a department. Was that because of the conditions of the day? Was that because it was too consuming? Like why?

Karen Horne: All of the above? All of the above. I think, you know, Disney used to have the edict, like, you know, you, if you work at Disney Bootcamp, you can work anywhere, right.

I'm not gonna say exactly what they used to say about it, but, , ,

Julie Harris Oliver: oh, I, I started my career there

too. I know. I know.

Karen Horne: Yeah. You know. , but also, like, there, there was a thing, like if you didn't, you know, if you didn't come to work on, you know, Sunday, Saturday, Sunday, right. Like, so, so, , and I was really a team of one.

It was just me and my assistant. And so we had, , you know, not only did I, you know, , oversee our writing program, In our [00:11:00] directing program. , we also worked with our features team and with writers there, but I also was a part of their current, you know, and development teams. Like, so I always, I also worked with them there, , and that work.

And so it was, it was just, you know, , I, you know, I wanted to be present. I wanted to, I wanted to have some type of life to give my children. At the same time I had, you know, my son was just turning four and a, and a newborn. And so Nickelodeon actually allowed me to do this as a consultant. So, , instead of becoming a full-time employee for them, I did it as technically an a, a consultant.

And, , doing that like gave me the freedom to say, I'm gonna work from home at a time when no one worked from home. So, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Brilliant.

Okay. Now, I know that the pipeline programs are kind of your special sauce and you've done it. You've done it in ways that are different. I remember Sarah Fischer was on this podcast a while ago talking about your program at a ABC.

Mm-hmm. And the difference being that people ended up with a job at the end. Mm-hmm. Which doesn't always happen. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. So can you [00:12:00] talk about like, how you think about pipeline programs and how you design them and, and really what, what we're trying to solve

Karen Horne: so I look at where is there a demand and how I create a.

How do I create a supply for that? So for instance, if I take the late night program as an example, , I was on a panel and it was a huge Vanity Fair article, , that was released, and David , Letterman was on the cover, and it was about the lack of diversity in late night. And, , so the panel moderator said, don't ask her about late night.

She doesn't work in that space. And he was right. I didn't. But then I thought to myself, why don't I, if I can do this and have success in primetime scripted why can't I do it in late night? So I created a supply for where there was a demand and what we did at n NBC at the time, and, and Warner. Brother's Discovery is doing this as well.

We, we paid for that writer that the company, you know, technically it has to come from a shows budget, blah, blah, [00:13:00] blah. But we allowed the overage, , for those shows to have these writers that came through our program be placed on their shows. , because you can talk about people can be programmed to death.

, there are people who have gone from one program to another, to another, to another, and still are trying to break into the industry. Yeah. It's us really putting our money where our mouth is. If we are taking this talent, we're supporting this talent, we're vetting the talent. It's harder oftentimes to get into any of these programs than it is to get into any Ivy League school.

, , yeah, we have on average for a writing program, probably about 3000 applications for like eight slots. Those odds aren't very good. Yeah. , so you have to be super talented to get in. That said, we know that part of the problem of people not not having enough writers or directors on sets is because people go with who they know.

And who they're comfortable with. And most oftentimes those people look like the showrunners, [00:14:00] which are white guys, right? Yeah. So like which often and have been historically white guys. So what we try to do is say, okay, we will support this writer on your show. , and at n nbc, , and I don't think they do this any longer, but at n NBC we supported a writer on a show for three years, , , at the staff writer level.

So in year two, if the show kept that writer and promoted them to the next level, which is story editor, we would pay for the staff writer portion of their salary. And we would do the same if in year three if they got promoted to executive story editor, we'd still, so by that time, that writer is now a part of the family, right.

And that ensures their success. We're doing that with our directing program at Warner Brothers Discovery as well. We'll pay for the episode of the director to direct, , through our directing program, and we'll pay for up to two years for a writer to be on any of our shows as well. , and, and look, the thing is, is that people have often talked about, oh, the diversity hire, or, you know,, I challenge that because the people [00:15:00] who got in those.

Spots did a lot more to get there than those people who are just shepherded it in because they're buffy's, you know, cousin at the club. Right. So, you know, , when we, when we bought our first house, it was in the gate community and, and you know, I will, Say I'm liberal to a fault.

And one of my neighbors who I loved dearly said to me like, why are you so liberal? Because if you live in this neighborhood, you must make as much money as I do. And I go, I probably make more than you do, because I didn't have, I don't come from inherit wealth. I didn't inherit my dad's company like you did.

Right. But I'm this way because I had access to policies and programs that helped me get an education and do the work that I'm doing. , and I'm working harder to make sure that I keep that. So I think that anyone who says that, oh, they're the diversity hire and they're othered, , , they don't recognize the challenges to get to where they are or the talent that they have in order to be there,

Julie Harris Oliver: well, they've had

to work harder and be better and Absolutely.

And [00:16:00] be more persistent. Now. And also that whole scenario is a bit infuriating, right? Because. Why wouldn't people hire them in the first place? Like, have you been able to diagnose, what is that barrier inside the brain of the people hiring that you have to pay for that hire for two, three years in order to get it to stick, even though it's a proven entity?

Karen Horne: I'm gonna ask you a question. I'm gonna ask you a question. Okay. Do you, do you go to the same hairdresser or the same dry cleaner time and time again? I do. Or do you treat, yeah. And you do that because you're comfortable with them. You know them, they, you know, you know that they're gonna do the job and they're whatever.

Right? Yeah. , Or if I, I would challenge you to say that if you tried something new, you would do so upon recommendation from someone you trust, right? Mm-hmm. If someone said to you, Julie, go to this hairdresser. She's really, really good, and you know, like, I've gone to her and I'm, I'm telling you, she, that's, you know, it's, it's not different in the work we do, right?

Like, like, [00:17:00] so, so people are going to go with who they're comfortable with. A writer's room, if we're gonna use writers as an example, is a very sacred, small, intimate place. I often describe the writer's room as an intimate dinner party, and people are invited by the host, the showrunner, , because they want them around their dinner table, right?

Oftentimes they want people who look like them around that dinner table, and that's. That's stupid, in my opinion. . It's just infuriating. Like we often, you know this, we've often talked about like if you're building a toolbox and you already have seven screwdrivers, you don't need an eighth one, you need a hammer.

Yeah. You need something different in order to build the best toolbox that toolbox possible. So, so I know. I know the why people do it. , I don't agree with the why people do it because I think I know the richness of the diversity of our storytelling, which it makes us better [00:18:00] content providers, it makes us better content creators.

, so when we look at that story, whether it's through the lens of a writer or through the lens of a director or even an actor, how they portray a character, you can tell. When it's authentically done, like if you're telling a story, that has any amount of diversity in it, if there's authentic voices there, then that's, you can tell the difference immediately.

And as we look at the business for this, our world is becoming more diverse than not diverse. We know that salsa outsells ketchup. We know that tortillas outsell bread. We know that Latinos open movies larger than any other groups. We know that black people watch television in real time than any other group, and we all wanna see ourselves reflected on screen.

So if we're not addressing that, we're leaving money on the table. So the business of diversity is,

Julie Harris Oliver: I think

McKenzie, I think McKenzie quantified it, and it was something like 10 billion. 10 billion with

a. [00:19:00]

Karen Horne: With a B. So if we look at this, cuz we all know that we're more business than we are show.

Right? If we're looking at the business of it, why wouldn't we do that? Why don't we sit and, you know, we are now having advertisers who are saying, I want to give money to black creators. I want to give money to diverse creators. I want to do that. Like, we need to follow the, footsteps in our a of our advertisers because they know who's buying.

Right. They know who's buying because that's what they sell to. Right. So when they're saying to us, we need more diversity, then we should listen. Yeah. ,

Julie Harris Oliver: How would you answer because you know, of course the backlash to this is agents saying to their writers, well, we can't hire white men right now. So you are outta luck. , I know you're mid-career, but I don't know what to tell you. It's the, you know, it's the diversity hires causing all the problems in the industry.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How do you respond

to that?

Karen Horne: It, it's, I, I call foul or, you know, being Jersey. I call Bs on that [00:20:00] because it's just the agent's not doing their jobs properly. Nobody's not gonna get hired in this. There's so much of this pie. The pie's bigger and bigger every day. , there's so much of the pie going around.

If the person is really, really good, the show is going to hire them. , it's really offensive if you ask me, , , that, , dialogue, that narrative is being, , told because, , because no one's not gonna hire someone if they're excited about them and their work.

, so, , and if we go back to a lot of the people who are on staff because, , , , with, with subsidizing from the companies, , that's not taking money away from their budget, that's additive. So, so for anyone who says that, , it's just, , it's just not true and it's, it is a cop out for agents, , when they say that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Agreed. , if your client is mediocre, tell them.

Karen Horne: Tell them. Yeah. Tell them so they can do better. Tell 'em and help them become better. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Julie Harris Oliver: yeah. , how would you respond to, and I'm sorry, I'm throwing all the, all the [00:21:00] critics, , yeah, let's do it at you. , how, how would you respond to people who say, well, you're just putting up another gate that people have to have to go through to even get into the program?

Karen Horne: Yeah. I, I don't agree with that. The gates, the gate, the built landscape is not fair. It's not equitable. So it's not merit based. What do you say? It's not, it's not merit based. And so no one has to go through these programs to get into our industry. , and I often, I know that most people who get into these programs will eventually get into the industry cuz they're freaking good in order in, in order to get into them.

This is just something that helps us. Escalates it. Like it, it's something that helps, , , advance them faster. This is something these programs generally don't help them become better at their craft. They're already really good at their craft. What they do is give them the exposure. It gives them some of the things that, the business part of it that they may not [00:22:00] know, , but it gives them the access to the industry which has not historically been there for these underrepresented talent.

And so it's not another gate, it is actually another door. It's a doorway. It's not a gate. It's a doorway for entry into the industry. , there are people that I, worked with when I. In my very first role at Disney that I still keep in touch with. You know, most of them are now showrunners, , and trying to get them to hire my, I want my kids to be nepobabies, , but I don't mind saying it.

I'm the first generation in this industry that could practice that. Right. But, it's not a gate. It's, it's a doorway. , those are not gates, they're doorways. They're any opportunity, you know, look, I often say I'm more Malcolm than Martin by any means necessary. And so if people can get into this industry because of a program, then there are so many people who are successfully working in this industry.

And, and, and I will tell you, I've always, you know, kind of measured my [00:23:00] success by when people forget that they've come through a program and they claim them on for themselves. And I say to my teams all the time, like, that's success. Like, don't get upset about that because that's success.

Julie Harris Oliver: When they forget and they say, I discovered this person.

Karen Horne: Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, I gotta tell you, when I was at, , NBC and we would do staffing meetings and the agents would come in with their books and, pitch writers to us. , and I would just go, that's mine. Oh, that one's mine too. That's mine too. And everybody would be like, that's hers. Like, you know, they're, I'm like, don't pitch to me.

I started their careers.

Julie Harris Oliver: I know they're good.

Karen Horne: Yeah, I know. They're good.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's funny

so what do you look for when you're selecting the people to go through the programs?

Karen Horne: Someone who has a real point of view in their storytelling. , and again, that storytelling could be in any format. It could be in film, , it could be in, , directors, writers, or, or even actors.

, it's their point of view. It's how they tell a story. I often say like, there's probably only [00:24:00] about five or six different stories in the world, right? And it's how you tell those stories that make them different. It's how you tell those stories. So, You know, I would say for writers, someone who has a good grasp of dialogue.

, so, you know, in for television particularly, , film, you, you can get away with big set pieces and boom, you know, whatever. So the dialogue is a little different. The needs for that in film than in television, but television, it's very intimate. It's inside your living room. It's like, it's like theater, it's like stage.

And you need to have a good grasp of that, a good, , ability to build a world and to tell a story and to create characters. And those are, those are some of the things that I think that any writer has to do to have success.

Julie Harris Oliver: So how accomplished do they need to be already before getting into a program?

Like do they need to have a whole

portfolio?

Karen Horne: Yeah, they should have a whole, you know, particularly for television, they have to have some type of a portfolio because television is a game of repeating, right? So it's, it's a game of like, not just like, be like, I always [00:25:00] say that a great idea doesn't make a great television show.

A great showrunner makes a great television show. And what makes a great showrunner is someone who can not only do the business, but who can do the story year over year over year episode over episode over episodes. So how do you take that great idea and create a great show from it is what makes you a great television writer.

And, So, yeah, that's, that's, they should have a portfolio because, you know, I, , I will tell you, I've gotten burned one or two times by like just ex, you know, saying, okay, you, you, you gave me this one great script, but I, and I'm, then they get in the program like, who wrote this script for them?

Like, I was like, this is not, this is not what, what I got submitted to me. You know? , , my old boss, , at ABC when he was president of abc, told a joke once in, at our upfront meetings about like us saying that, they got this great script for the pilot script and something like that.

It was, it is a better joke, joke than I can remember. But, , you know, , they were like, oh, that's the pilot. This is the series. Like, so we wanna [00:26:00] make sure that a, a person has a portfolio that we know that they are prolific writers, that they can do this over and over again. And that, that are some of the things that we're really looking for in a candidate.

Julie Harris Oliver: So it's not enough to have the one script that is your dream, that you are gonna take this script to the ends of the earth and not have 10 more in your pocket.

Karen Horne: maybe not 10, but at least two or three more, for sure. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't all like, look, if you have a great television script and then you have.

A bunch of great short stories or you have a great play. , people on TV don't like to read features, so that's too long. , but, but a note. Yeah. But if you even have a great feature or something like that, , you have to have more than one thing in order to be one trick podium, any program. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: ,

and okay, a couple directions I wanna go are you doing a program now that's like mid-career leveling people up

to showrunners?

Karen Horne: Yeah. I mean, one, we are doing a, we've done a showrunners program. Yeah. , talk about that. , yeah, [00:27:00] so that's probably a little beyond mid-career. , , those are for people who are, , well, I'll tell you how it came back.

You know, , we kept hearing over and over again from our creative executives that the problem is, is that there are not enough diverse showrunners because of short orders of series, , , the Pandemic. , , and what they were finding is, is that, you know, writers have really, , gotten promoted and matriculated and have quickly gone from like entry level to senior level writers on staff without knowing how to produce a show or learning any of those other things that it takes to be a showrunner.

Julie Harris Oliver: ,

the business part,

Karen Horne: the business part of it. , so we decided, , the W G A has a fantastic showrunner's program, but we decided why, you know, W G A doesn't own the license to showrunners program. If we, if our executives are saying that, this is one of the things, and, and I, I will tell you the importance of having [00:28:00] more diversity at the very top in a showrunner's position because we know it trickles down.

We know that if there is a person who is a underrepresented diverse in some way. , at the top, they're gonna hire talent. That is, they're gonna hire writers, they're gonna hire actors, they're gonna hire crew who is as well. And so in order to really kind of make a change in this industry, we need to start at the top.

, so we tried to figure out how to do that, and we partnered with our creative executives across the board, through Warner Brothers Television, hbo and HBO Max to say, Who are some of the people who are at like the co eep level or the supervising producer level, right. You know, who are ready to step into the showrunner's, , role that you wanna nominate for this program.

, so it was a nomination only program and it was nominated through our creative executives and we create, , our first cohort was. , I think we've only wanted to do 10, and we, we ended up with maybe 13 because there were so many great candidates, and we, , built a component into this program that the [00:29:00] W G A doesn't have, and that's shadowing, , for any writer who's never produced their own episode on set.

We, , got, , one of our shows. We got our show. There was only two who hadn't, , and one was more comedy driven. So Abbott Elementary stepped up and let him shadow on their show because it's really important to understand how to produce a show if you're gonna be a showrunner. , so we built a shadowing component in it, but we also had like, you know, all, like a lot of the people who have worked for the WGA in helping those programs have overall deals, and they're part of our family at Warner Brothers Television.

So John Wells did his, budgeting bootcamp and, , it just, it was really super successful and I'm looking forward to the next go round of it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, that's really exciting. , Yeah, I've heard John well speak so many times and really gets it.

Karen Horne: Yeah, he's really,

he's fantastic too. He really is. He's just very generous and , , just really a great guy.

Julie Harris Oliver: I would like to hear some of your success stories[00:30:00]

I remember there was a program with House of Dragons. Yeah. And I remember the team getting to make phone calls to people and, you know, the phone call is gonna change their life.

Karen Horne: Yeah.

You know, like, you know, luckily with Zoom, we can record them now. So we have some, like if you go to the, , Warner Brothers Discovery Access website, you'll probably see some of the stuff that we've captured there. , and because now we can do these calls in person, like we can do this where we're actually telling the people in person that, , they have gotten, it does, it changes their lives, , with the House of the Dragon directors that, that, , it's was in the uk so they call it schemes and not programs.

Mm-hmm. , but with that, with that scheme, the directors, we never intended to have them shadow on that show. It was just to give them an opportunity to observe this, you know, , you know, not historic, but this like, huge production from the very epic beginning Epic, epic, you know, from the very beginning, , [00:31:00] to the very end.

And that show, , as big as it was, gave them complete access and was really all in on it. , I think, some of, , the successes that have come through the Warner Brothers television workshop, which is now the Warner Brothers Discovery Writing Access program, has been around probably longer than any other writing program in the industry.

I wanna say probably close to 40 something years. , and, , and, , , so, , , the success stories from that, like, I can't even, I can't even name 'em, like, you know, they're creating shows in the industry. , I know like, you know, I look at. You know, the work at NBC with female forward and their directing program, a lot of the people who came through that directing program now have people shadowing under them.

So like that, like those are just like, you know, like I, I've been doing this a long time, so I have way too many success stories. And I hate to say one or two because then I'll miss like the big one. But, , but, , there, there are so many great success stories and so many people that now owe my children jobs, so,

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:32:00] so that nepobaby dream will come to pass.

Karen Horne: Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: So, , let's talk about kind of the breadth of it. Writers, directors, showrunners, animators, filmmakers.

Karen Horne: Yeah. I, you know, if I can jump in in a little bit, like, , Animators like, you know, , H B O, , was then H b o max. It's gonna just be Max now. But, you know, , when they had an animation department came to us and was like, we kinda wanna do something around, you know, whatever.

And we was like, you build, like if you dream and I'll build it. And so we create an animated shorts program for h HBO O Max. , and the theme was only you. Like, what are stories that only you can tell, like what that are, just your stories. , and they are like trending on H B O Max right now. Like it, and,

Julie Harris Oliver: well, they, they're so good.

Karen Horne: They're so, thank you. I love it. Like they, it's so rewarding, you know, like I, I will tell you. One of the things that continues to [00:33:00] drive me here is, is that it just never gets old for me. Like being able to call a writer and tell them that they're gonna get hired on a show or a director to tell them they have an episode or an actor to say they wanna hire you.

Well, to see these animated shorts is where we've turned programs into programming really is just so amazing to me. It is like what the goal is. Right. You know? , I know that people don't really jump into this industry because it's a job for them. You know, on the creative side. They jump into it because it's a dream for them.

And to be able to help, like, I'm still getting, I've been doing this for so long and I'm still getting goosebumps over it. Like, to be able to help facilitate that is really a feeling that just is, it just continues, continues to, to drive me. It, it, you know, it makes all the other BS that you have to put up with a little bit more palatable.

Julie Harris Oliver: Making people's dreams come true or helping their dreams [00:34:00] come true is incredible. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then what they put out in the world is so important and impactful. It did. You also did an actress program, right? You mentioned that?

Yeah. Yes, yes. What did that look like?

Karen Horne: It, it was. It, it was great. , the team, Grace Moss, who now leads our pipeline programs really kind of created this program.

, and it was where we really took underrepresented talent. I mean, we had trans actors actors with disabilities, you know, , every, you know, range of diversity was there. , and put them through a really intensive bootcamp. Like we put them through a week long. If they weren't local, we'd brought them out to Los Angeles and housed them and, and, you know, had some of the best acting coaches work with them, casting a, you know, casting directors to work with them, to talk to them about the audition process.

And then we put them on tape and we shared it with our casting, , executives, , that are, , that are, you know, are casting executives. Also the casting directors that we work with [00:35:00] across the board. So we shared them as much as we could. , , and it's funny, like some of, like, I see the success through some of those actors.

But there's been some great stories from there as well. So, , so yeah, that's, what is it? It's, that one has proven a little bit harder here at, at Warner Brothers Discovery, which is so big. , but we did something similar when I was at nbc. We did scene showcases and I look at some of the talent that have come through there and I see them every day and I'm super excited.

We also did, , at N B C at a nation nationwide search for standup comedians, and you immediately knew that some of those comedians are great, gonna be great writers, and some of them are great talent, and we found some really good talent there as well.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now when you're looking at developing a new pipeline program, what are all the elements that you put into it?

Cause I know there's a big curriculum that goes with

it. Mm-hmm.

Karen Horne: I'll tell you, look, the, what we used to do is just like say, how do you become better at your craft? Right? So, , oftentimes people do write good scripts, but they kind of write from the stream of [00:36:00] consciousness and they're like, and they get good stuff.

What we try to do is teach 'em kind of the, , mechanics of it. Like, you know, they're mechanics. Structure for sure. You know why? Even if it's , on, , premium, , , premium platform, there still are act breaks in that premium platform. And so, like, why ACT breaks are important, how to button a scene, how to like, you know, how to dissect your joke.

Like how to, you know, that's something I actually learned better, , to be better at giving notes about, or instruction about during our late night program. How to take like a joke and really kind of dissect it and not go to the easy, easy joke, but really go to the smarter and more funny way. And like how to do that with your characters.

How to develop characters. Like, if you do this to this character, you're gonna kill them down the line and blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, like, Those things that some, you know, writer who could theoretically just be thinking about, this is a great idea. I'm gonna write it down as a script, may not help them as they start their career and to give them longevity in this industry.

[00:37:00] So those are some of the things we've always thought about, like how the mechanics of it, if you're a director, how do you work with your talent? If the number one on the call sheet doesn't like the number two on the call sheet they have to do is see how do you make that work? And that's, that happens a lot, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: How do you make that work?

Karen Horne: There's way, you know, you just have to, you just have to navigate it. But, , but, , , but to do that, like, you know, also like, you know, the importance of having, being prepared and being prepared for what happens if someone, you know, gets sick and, and they, or what happens if you lose the light and you didn't, like, you didn't get your shot?

You know, what's the most important part of that? So like, giving them all the tools to really succeed, providing them mentors to help them along the way. Those are some of the things that we try to do in these programs to really arm them to be the most successful. , other than just coming into this line yet another reason why people who come through these programs are really well suited for success [00:38:00] because they have all of this.

You know, that the company has vetted and you know, we've been vetted by the company. Now additionally, what we do with our programs is throw in a little bit of equity and inclusive training. , no one wants to work with a-holes. No one wants to work with a bully. To be a boss doesn't mean you should be bossy.

And I think that's where a lot of people fail. A lot of executives fail in that space. They're not good leaders. Being a good leader is a responsibility. How do you lead effectively? How do you lead and get the most from the people who you are working with? Right? So we teach them. , we don't want anyone who comes from our program cuz if you're underrepresented or diverse, it doesn't mean that you are, , , that you cannot still practice.

An ism, right? Sure. So, so, so we try to make sure that the people who come from our program not only have the mechanics of how to succeed at their [00:39:00] craft, but also are going to be effective leaders and effective contributors will not fall into any microaggressions or, , or inequitable, , things that sometimes people do on sets.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I think that is and has to become more and more important as we need to get that to be. As much of a criteria as all the other skills if you're gonna be in a position of leadership, right? Mm-hmm. And I think that's a, , I don't know if it's a hard sell, but it's a kind of a late sell. Mm-hmm.

Right? It's like people are just starting to think about that and I don't know if they're convinced how important that is. Well, that feels like the next step.

Karen Horne: Yeah. I mean, it is. And a lot of the work that now that I get a chance to work with workforce, , that's what we're trying to instill in our executives as well.

Those policies, if you will, not policies, but, but you know, those qualifications, those qualities of being inclusive, , those inclusive qualities, those, you know, how to be [00:40:00] a better leader, , how to be, , , a leader that recognizes that, , it's your responsibility to, , to encourage and uplift, , those voices around you that normally don't get uplifted, like to champion diversity.

, and so I, I'm hopeful that if we do that on the workforce side, it will show in our content as well,

Julie Harris Oliver: because it's not enough. I mean, in my opinion, it's not enough to be a genius. Cuz guess what? There are a lot of geniuses. Mm-hmm. And. And that's a piece I'm not sure everybody believes yet either, cuz there's still a lot of propping up of asshole geniuses.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not trusting that there's more than one person in the whole wide world that can direct this particular property. Absolutely. Yeah. And how, how do you think we get all the way there? Is it time, is it consistency? Like what do you, what do you think?

Karen Horne: Well, I know how we got there. Like we got there, , because of the built landscape, right?

We got there. , [00:41:00] because that we don't work in an equitable, , , world. We don't live in an equitable world. And, , the systemic racism that has existed, , in our country and in our industry is still. It's still alive. Alive and well. It's alive and well. That's what that we can be sure of. So I think like there is a tendency to, you know, like I've always said that in success I put myself out of work, but I've been doing this for over 20 years and I'm still very much, , tired at the end of the day because of the workload that I have.

So, , so I, I think, , how it happens is because again, if you go back to the same hairdresser analogy, people know that that cisgender white male director who can tend to be an asshole also can provide a really great product at the end. We just have to be better than that. We just have to be the people who says there are other people who can provide something, and in fact, maybe those other people will provide a fresh lens on it [00:42:00] that will even elevate this more than we thought was possible.

, we have to know that diversity doesn't equal risk. That, , that we are better because of it, and that we have to sometimes go outside what is our comfort zone in order to be better at the work we do. And it's, again, it's just better for our business. That's just the, like, that, you know, like, like let's take the fatigue around this out of it and recognize that you're not gonna get tired of, you know, Proctor and Gamble selling you, giving you, tens of millions of dollars for this, right?

Because it's the, that's what our business is. You have to, you have to, you have to embrace the fact that that part of that is also making sure that the content you create is for the audiences we're creating it for. Right? So, so the fatigue around that, until we get to a place where, Where I, you know, I absolutely, you know, have nothing to do then we still gotta keep doing it right [00:43:00] when your work is

done.

When my work is done.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, and it's how much better might the property be if the crew isn't walking on eggshells? Cuz they're scared of the bully at the top. Like that, it seems like such an obvious, you know, people are going to be more relaxed and more creative and actually make a better product at the end of the day.

Mm-hmm. No matter how great you think it is now with the guy being a jackass. Mm-hmm. , it could only be so much better. Yeah. And let's circle back on the fatigue of it all. I know it was very intense in 2020 when George Floyd was murdered and everyone, you know, racial reckoning and we are really gonna talk about this in Serious Hearts and Minds tour and it, it feels like we're having a bit of a pullback and a bit of a backlash and certainly politically massive backlash.

Mm-hmm. , and it's also the time where, If you haven't gotten on board with the Hearts and Minds tour at this point, what are we even doing? Mm-hmm. So what are we going to do? , how do you think we keep, , keep momentum when, , when, [00:44:00] when the white people are tired of talking about it?

Karen Horne: Well, , I will go back to the business of it first.

Like, that's, that's the quick answer. It's good for our business. You're never gonna get tired of doing things that are good for our business. You shouldn't do that. But the real me is, like, if you're tired, imagine how I feel as a black woman. Imagine, like, imagine, right? Like, like I don't get a chance to say, I'm tired of this and just walk away from it.

Right? Right. And it's not just because it's my job, it's because it's my life. You know? Like I don't get a chance to not worry about the fact that oftentimes media portrays my son as a bad guy because he's black and he has locks in his hair and, and, and often wears a hoodie. You know? , they don't know the fact that he, you know, got basically a perfect score in his s a t and went to a great school and all of that kind of stuff.

Like, they don't know. The fact that he, , has probably, has grown up in, in neighborhoods just like theirs. Right. Like, or even better. Right. They, they don't [00:45:00] know that

Julie Harris Oliver: I, I heard a story yesterday and I will ask my daughter if I can repeat this story before I leave it in the podcast, but her boyfriend, ,

who is at Georgetown mm-hmm.

Who's black mm-hmm. Wore blue

corduroys and a blue shirt yesterday, and a girl in his class said, well, you better be careful where you go. You

look like a Crip. Mm.

Karen Horne: And he probably didn't even know what a Crip was.

I know

Julie Harris Oliver: he

grew up in Malibu.

Let's be clear.

Karen Horne: He exactly grew up in Malibu.

Julie Harris Oliver: He,

he was looking super cute in his blue outfit.

walking around Georgetown. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, yeah.

Karen Horne: Yeah, yeah. And well, so the importance of this why that we don't have the luxury of having fatigue over this is because we also have the responsibility of creating content.

Whether that content is for the big screen, the small screen, or the gaming. Like let's like, and even in games, like we work with our games division a lot. Games are the first thing that most kids [00:46:00] have in terms of media, their eyes on. The way we portray people on that if, if your games, I don't even, I don't know, like in those Car Chase or whatever games that they are, if all the bad guys are kinda dark skinned and blah, blah, blah, you know, that's, that's, that's telling that, that those are images that are imprinting the minds of our society.

And so as long as, I can't be tired by it, then you don't have the luxury of being tired of it either. So let's just say,

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean,

that's the definition of privilege right there. If you could walk away from the conversation and not be bothered about it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. That's a little privilege. Mean, you're curious what

that was.

Karen Horne: Yeah. I mean, I, I'll tell you right now, like, you know, I, I don't care if my son bruises this or not. Like, you know, like he has not renewed his car. He has get a smog check on his car and, you know, he's like dragging his feet and hasn't done it in, his registration is going to expire like Monday.

And, and also he doesn't know where his license is and I'm like, Okay, so [00:47:00] you're gonna get pulled. I'm gonna take your keys from you. Nope, nope. Like you won't not be able to drive because like you are a black man driving the car in a white neighborhood. Right. And you're, you're gonna have expired registration and no license.

Julie Harris Oliver: You can't take that risk.

Karen Horne: You can't like it. No, those, so you are, so the reason why we can't have fatigue about this is because I will have sleepless nights worrying about that. Right? Yeah. Because society says he's a bad guy.

Julie Harris Oliver: Right. And, and, and that's real. And it's persistent. Yeah.

Karen Horne: So that's why, I mean, like the prince of the, the stories we tell and who gets to tell those stories cannot be.

We could not, you know, magnify it more. It's so important. And it's not just, by the way, on scripted. I would say I, you know, I, I think we do a good job of it here. But I will say that when my kids were younger, we would listen to the local newscasts. And [00:48:00] if they talked about a crime happening, and they described the, , we all, they always tended to describe the perpetrator by their diversity.

And if they didn't, we were like, oh, they must be white. Because they didn't say, they never say a white man, never say a white man. Right? So what's a given? It's a, so, so you know that again, you are calling out the fact that it was a brown person, a black person, a yell, whatever you're calling, but you don't, if it's a white person.

And what that does, the imprint that does on people listening is saying that every crime that happens is by a person of color, and that affects our society. That's why we can't have fatigue over this, because it is, it's dangerous. It's dangerous.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, it's life and death and it's real. Mm-hmm.

Karen Horne: Mm-hmm.

Yes.

,

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, so that keeps you going. Mm-hmm. What, what gives you hope?

Karen Horne: Oh, you know, I often say that I [00:49:00] was born with rose colored glasses on, and that oftentimes people have to say to me, bitch, pull those glasses off. You need prescription. Like, , , so, , I'll say that happens to be just my kind of how I go.

I, I just look, I think that numbers don't lie, and I, and I recognize that. I'm a person that is very much the story person. I like to, you know, I like pictures, I like whatever. Like if you gimme numbers, I'm like, huh, what are you talking about? Numbers. But I know the numbers don't lie. Right? So I know, , the importance of showing people, because oftentimes a showrunner will say, or a, , a colleague will say, oh, I have, you know, this brown person next to me.

We're doing really good in the Latina space. Like, you know, but that's the only brown person that's in the whole department, right? So unless you show them, this is where you are, and this is the history of, of, , promotions in your department. This is the history of whatever, like this is [00:50:00] your retention levels.

Like you have to, we have to show them. So the numbers. Give me hope. Now, like for a person who hates numbers, they actually give me hope because I'm, I'm hopeful that once it's shown these numbers, people will recognize that they're not doing as good as they think they were. Right? And that once you show people the numbers and the audiences that are thirsty, that are hungry for more authentic stories that represent the way they look, represents things in their lifestyle, and that's good business, that gives me hope that we'll have more.

I mean, we are an industry that chases the heat, right? So like, please, blue Beatle do well That because it will make sure that other shows, other movies get, like, the success of Blue Beatle will drive. Blue Beetle television shows will drive blue beetle sequels. It will, you know, drive so, so much. [00:51:00] Right. And so I hope that people come out and support these things, but I also, that gives me hope because I think that the numbers just don't lie.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and it's, it's, you can't argue with them. And how people feel about something is often so very different. And, you know, it dispels the myths. Like, oh, a Black Panther was an anomaly. Oh, a league of her own was an anomaly. You know? But actually when you, I, I think the most recent Hollywood diversity report that came out, the films directed by women and people of color made

more money,

Karen Horne: made more money, and often were made for less money.

Exactly. After we were made for less and they made more. And also like if you look at a show like Issa Rae's, insecure Unapologetically Black, right? Yeah. Un And you know what? The white audiences were as large, if not larger than those black, the black audiences watching that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Delicious love.

Karen Horne: Delicious, right?

The story is universal, right? The, so this is what I [00:52:00] say to a lot of writers, like when they wanna write, like, you know, I often say you can't write at to an indigenous writer. Like, you can write about your specific experience as long as you tell it in a universal way, right? Like, so do so, so the greatest example of that, I will use the indigenous community.

I had a writer once who was indigenous and they really just, you know, wrote a, you know, a fried bread story on the, on the, on the reservation. And it, and it did, the script didn't really resonate with people. I had another indigenous writer who wrote a story about a guy. Who was a football player, , and his sister gets raped on, in the casino on one's reservations. So he comes home and he has to deal with that and like it get, I got to see the life on the reservation and their culture, but it was told through a story that everybody else could really, , embrace or understand or, , or, , that was [00:53:00] universal.

Mm-hmm. , and I think that is what we have to recognize. Like all of our stories are universal. It's the specificity of it. It is the diversity of those stories that changes them. I remember I said earlier that there's only like five or so stories in the world. It's the diversity of those stories that make them more exciting and interesting.

Julie Harris Oliver: Karen Horne, thank you so much,

Karen Horne: Julie. Thank you so much for having me. I love talking to you. Have me back like I had a great time. You're the best.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're the best.

Karen Horne: You're the best.

Julie Harris Oliver: Goodbye.

EP 228: Bree Frank

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] You're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find me and my work@julieharrisoliver.com, and you can find the podcast at theotherfiftypercent.com, all spelled out in letters. We are continuing our conversation about inclusion, equity, and diversity with Bree Frank, founder of Hue

You Know, as an accomplished television executive and advocate for people of color and media, Bree is passionate about creating opportunities for professionals of all backgrounds. With over 20 years of professional production experience, she's produced over 300 hours of unscripted television, including MTV's Room Raiders, TLC's, A Makeover Story.

And the award-winning television format, Wife Swap. She has also contributed to a number of series during a 10 year run in production management for Zodiac Media's New York office. In 2018, Bree took a leap of faith and moved her family to Los Angeles, California to begin a new chapter of life. She quickly landed at [00:01:00] Matador Content and served as the executive in charge of production where she managed a robust development slate as well as projects for Disney + Apple TV + Crackle and Showtime.

Most recently, Bree was at Hello Sunshine as their senior Vice President of Physical Production for Unscripted, where she was tapped four years ago to build out physical production services. Bree served as an executive on Hulu's Fair Play, Roku's MeetMe in Paris, and Apple's My Kind of Country, as well as a healthy slate of brand funded projects.

Bree's passion is to tell exceptional stories and move the television zeitgeist forward while championing diversity, equity, inclusion, and access. Bree dropped so much truth in this episode. There were a couple times that I forgot I had to keep up my end of the conversation. I just wanted to keep listening here.

Now it's your turn, Bree Frank. Thank you for being on the other 50%.

Bree Frank: Thank you for having me.

Julie Harris Oliver: Let's start, uh, let's start at the beginning. Let's talk about your career and then talk about how that led you into the Hue You Know work.

Bree Frank: Yeah, so [00:02:00] my career, I like to say that I fumbled my way into film and television.

I always knew that I wanted to be in and it, it'd always been my North Star, um, but I had no clue how to do it, and so I just kept making mistakes until I landed in the right place. Um, And so I went to school for journalism, and then I worked in advertising for a little bit, and then 9/11 happened and I had a quarter life crisis that was like right on time.

Mm-hmm. And I decided that I had already defaulted to my plan B. And so I made a decision to like just venture into television and see what it would look like. And so I begged this company, uh, to take me in as an intern at 25 and didn't get paid to work there. Wait, what were you doing before that? I was working in advertising, I was working, I was working at B B D O on Campbell soup, AIG and Swanson, in account management.

And it was like a huge big company. And I was just, I think just way too young to understand a rollout of healthcare plans and [00:03:00] like equity in like 401k. I was giving all my money to the gap in express as we all were in our twenties as we all do. Um, and then I realized, I had this really interesting conversation with this woman, uh, Chris Starak, who sat at my desk and I was really, really curious about her.

Cause she was at the job for 20 years and she would lean on my like half pony wall desk and tell me all about her life. And one day I was like, how did you end up here? And she was like, well, you know, day I graduated from high school and I came.

I'm like, oh no, but no, that's what was gonna happen

here. So she was really pivotal in my decision to like jump into television because she was just, she like fell into this thing that I had just fell into and I was like, oh no. Like I am not going to look up 20 years [00:04:00] later doing commercials.

Julie Harris Oliver: You were like, you were my future and I don't like it.

Yeah, exactly. I had a similar moment. I started in commercials too and I was on a call, I was on a phone call where we were having a very serious conversation about Tony the Tiger and the sociological implications and our generational relationship with Tony the Tiger. And I was like,

I'm out, I'm out, I'm out.

Bree Frank: And you know, I also realized it was time for me to go cuz they kept asking me to do my job and I was annoyed like, no. Oh, I get it. Oh, that's actually, that's in my job description and I don't wanna do it anymore. That's not you. That's me. I'm gonna leave. Yeah. Time to go. It's time to go.

Okay. So then you went to another company and worked as an intern.

Tell us. So I worked

as an intern. I took off the garbage, I helped with payroll, I did anything that they asked me to do, Keith, they're like, can you, um, can you record and go out on like casting, it was for Room Raiders, MTV season two. And I was like, yep, yep. And they're like, can you do [00:05:00] trade outs and help us with like, putting together like the baskets for like the late show?

And I was like, yep. And like, anything that they asked me to do, I did it. And then they asked me to be like a full-time freelance employee after about like a week, like only a few days. And so I ended up staying there and kind of like cut my teeth in the world of New York City production, which is very different from Hollywood.

Mm-hmm. And then I stayed there for a little while. Then I was unemployed, like I was Oh, a freelancer. It means you just say goodbye to me whenever, and then I don't get paid. This is interesting. Um, yeah, that's hard. And so I did that for a little while. I moved to Hollywood with my best friend and lived in Marina Delray, hoping that I would like make it, and I fell flat on my face.

And then I went back to New York City and then I was gonna give up, and then a friend called me to, um, be a production assistant. On a show called Y Swap and I was like, sure. And then I was at that company for 10 years. And so then once I was [00:06:00] at that company I kind of like learned the language and how things work and just kind of stayed there for a little while.

And that's really, that was like the foundation of my television career. So what was your job at that time? So at the time I was, uh, I started out as a PA and then I was moved to a production coordinator and then I went on the PM track and then I had to lead that company to finally get the title as line producer.

And then from line producer, I jumped up pretty quickly because you spent 10 years at a company, you kind of do all the things. Yeah. Um, and, but you can't get the title or the money. Uh, and so I got So you got away. Yeah, exactly. So I left and once I left I went to, uh, Matador Content in New York. And Leah Colton Gonzalez, who was like my second like, call it, or third boss in the industry, was like, of course you're a line producer.

And she, because she gave me that title, it was, I was able to accelerate in a more meaningful way where before I was just kind of stuck in this really weird place, [00:07:00] like where I could, I just couldn't get the title right. But doing the work. But I was totally doing the work.

Julie Harris Oliver: That happens. That happens, yeah.

And was it always unscripted in that world?

Bree Frank: So it was always unscripted for two seconds. I worked in, uh, scripted, but I was doing trade outs. I worked in this film called a Great New Wonderful, an independent film, and it was something with Kevin Bacon and I did something with Edie Falco, and they needed.

I traded out like Wonder Bread, uh, that's a weird memory to come up. So I am a little bit of a, like a sleuth. And so this company, they took a contract as production companies do to say like, yes, we can do the thing. And so I would just get on the internet. This is like back in the days when it was like MapQuest and Yahoo was your search engine, not Google.

And I would call up companies because I worked in advertising, I would know who to speak to and then I would get to the person on the phone who could help me do the trade out for the films. And so I did that. But other than that, it was really unscripted because I did not know how [00:08:00] to get unscripted. And it turns out years later, there is no clean way to get in.

Right. It's still, it's literally, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, oh. Um, just for the audience, cuz no one has talked on this show before about trade out, so can you explain what that is?

Bree Frank: Yeah, so basically you call, you find a partner right in brands in marketing and you, you basically get them to give you a product in order to be placed on a show.

And so there was like a list of items that were, you know, gonna be featured in the movie and you would just contact the brands and see if they would give it to you for free instead of the project paying for it. And so I was really good at getting on the phone and getting people to give me stuff for free.

Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you might also call that product placement Product.

Bree Frank: Yeah, product placement.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So then what happened?

Bree Frank: So then what happened? So then I was there for 10 years. I went to Matador and I had probably the most fun I'd ever had in production. It was such a little like, almost like a [00:09:00] family of people who were like, they were like laid back but hardworking.

And while I was there for a minute, I had to tell them I had to leave. Cause it was like I was on a show that was like going away. There was like no money for it. And they kept wanting to keep me around. And I went to my boss like, you ha, you have to stop paying me. I'm gonna leave, but I promise you I'll come back.

And so after that, I took a one year job at McGill and I was work, I worked on a show called Diesel Brothers, and then after that, Oh my goodness. I went back to Matador and worked on a show that was canceled after shooting the first day. And then as it turns out, what, what happened? It was focus grouped and the focus group hated the show, but literally it was the plot of the show.

Like, do you know what I mean? Like you got the Project Green Lit because someone was a character. Yeah. And then they focused with the character and people were like, we hate her. And it's like, That's the show. Yeah.

It's hard to build a show around

that. So it kinda went [00:10:00] away and I think it got life again, but I wasn't there.

Um, and then a friend of mine, um, Gina McDermott owned a company called Blackfin and I was kind of like looking for work. And one of my production managers who I recommended to the job, who then made his way up to VP of production, I was talking to him like, oh yeah, I'm looking for work for the first time.

It's like, really strange. And he was like, would you come work for me? And I was like, do you have money? And he was like, yeah. And I was like, yeah, you can be my boss. I don't care. So I was there for a year and then my husband and I had been talking about moving to la. And it always had been like in my back thoughts of like, I really wanna go and see if I can do it in ma, like make it in California.

And so we talked about it and then one, it was like, I guess 2017 we're like, okay, we're gonna do it. And then we just started looking at homes on Zillow. And then we brought our kids out here for Christmas night and like the 21 houses in four days, didn't find anything. And then went back, found a house on Zillow, had my friends [00:11:00] visited, I was like, this is it.

Put the money down without seeing it. Oh my gosh. And then my husband had to have like a Aer, like a spinal like sur back surgery thing. And while he was in anesthesia, I found another house and I pulled out of the original house. And when he woke up I was like, I did a thing. Um, And then I was, uh, then, so then we talked to the doctor and I was like, how long before he can get on the flight?

Cause I have 10 days to change my mind about his house that we're gonna buy. Oh my god. And like a week. And so he flew, we flew out to California, looked at the house, was like, let's go. And then we, then I moved to California. Oh my God. No, I'm a little nuts, but I also feel like you just gotta pay the dumb tax.

So I'm like, I'll make any mistake and just pay the tax and kind of move on from it. And so when we moved to California, I had no intention on working for a little bit. I just kind of wanted to see what I could do. And then the company that I worked at Matador, my old boss, Leah, was like, Hey, are you moving to California?

And I was [00:12:00] like, yes. And she said, are you serious? I'm like, well, I just closed on my house. Yeah, that's serious. Pretty serious. And so she said, okay, well there's a, an executive in charge of poi uh, production position available at the LA office. Are you interested? And I said, yes, I am. And she said, okay, great.

And so we worked it out. I finished out at Blackfin, and then I came to la and then I worked that job for two years. And then in the middle, towards the end of my contract, I happened to have a latte with a wonderful woman named Liz Jenkins. We know Liz Jenkins. After an old boss was like, Hey, there's someone a Hello Sunshine, they're really thinking about going into physical production and unscripted, do you wanna like just meet with her?

And I was like, sure. So I met with Liz and we had a lovely, we showed up in like the same outfit, which is like so strange. Like almost the same outfit, same color. And then we had, it was supposed to be like a half hour meeting, it was like an hour and a half, almost two hours. And then we had a chat and then I started consulting for them for about nine months.

And then she created [00:13:00] the position of, uh, vice president of physical production for and scripted. And then that became my journey at Hello Sunshine, which I just ended in April. Incredible. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Um, I asked Liz this, and then I'll, I'll ask you this also. Is it, is it as great as it looks on the outside?

Bree Frank: It's an amazing company.

So the, the thing about it is just like, it's really interesting because you have so many wonderful women like sitting in one place. They're all like truly, um, aspirational and groundbreaking. And so it's hard, but it's also worth it. But it depends on like who you are and what it is that you wanna kind of get into with it.

I left in love, like, you know, like, I just wanted to, I wanted to venture focus on my nonprofit, which we'll talk about. And also I really wanna venture into scripted. And I realized I had to be honest, like there's no way that I could do what it is that I wanna do and still be there because it is much more lean than I think people would really understand about it.

It's all consuming. Yeah. It takes up because of what they're building is [00:14:00] too meaningful for you to have like a side hustle. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I feel all in. Yeah. You gotta, you, you have to be all in. And I'm at a, just like a really interesting pivotal time in my own life and so, you know, I did the thing.

I know that I can do it and it was wonderful. And I have such a deep love for Liz Jenkins and Sarah and so many people that are there. Um, but my life is about me, not about the shiny

Julie Harris Oliver: thing. Yeah. Like when Tracy Ellis Ross did that, did you see that speech where she was talking about how she wasn't having children?

And people give her a lot of feedback about it and she was like, look it, my life is mine. Like, what a revolutionary statement. My life is mine. It's not all these other peoples who have expectations of

Bree Frank: me. Yeah. I tend to look at my life from like, the perspective of like, what's gonna make the eulogy. Hmm.

Right. And so I just kind of like blow it out and I feel like, you know, I, for a large part of my life, you, you kind of don't have control over what it is that you're doing, right? Yeah. [00:15:00] So, the moment that I can actually have agency and autonomy and take the responsibility for the thoughts in my head and the whispers that are coming to me saying like, there's something else.

Like, I just help. I wanna show up for it. And I think that what's different for me and what happened once I turned 40, 40 is that I'm willing to be wrong about it, right? So where like most people are like afraid to venture into the thing because failure has like this super negative connotation to it.

I'm willing for fa, I'm willing to fail for things that I just feel in my gut are meant for me. Mm-hmm. And I would rather walk away saying, I tried than for it just to live as a dream inside my head.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my God. I just want everybody to pause on that and hear that. And it seems really, uh, You know, since the pandemic, and there's a lot of talk about, a lot of people are going through this right now, like, oh, I should be doing something different with my life and I'm not really sure what that is.

And then to make, to make the leap and to trust [00:16:00] that, that following your gut is gonna lead to good things. I mean, that's what we all should be doing.

Bree Frank: I think that, like, I've spent, like, you know, like most of your life, I feel like I've all reached, reached for the thing while holding onto the thing mm-hmm.

In the past. And I wanted to like, you know, like when a baby reaches out for you, they do it with both arms. Yeah. That's, I wanna reach for my life with both arms is the, is the way that I would articulate it. And I just can't, I don't wanna live any other way anymore.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my God. Have you done a TED talk yet?

Because I would, I would put your TED talk on a loop. Okay, so what is, what is the whisper?

Bree Frank: So the whisper for me is for stillness, right? Like I really wanna get still, I've been working since I was 14. I'm really good at working, right? I'm really good at being like, you proved it over an overachiever. You know, I skipped the 10th grade, I got a full academic scholarship to college.

I've always like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Like she's a good person, and go, right? [00:17:00] And now I'm kind of leaning into the uncertainty of me not knowing how to do the next thing without having like a scarcity mindset that if I don't know, it means that I'm less thin. Yeah. So the, the answer is truly like, I don't know.

I know that I'm passionate about my nonprofit and the work that I do, but I know that that is my passion, but not necessarily my calling. And so I will always do that work in some way, shape, form, or fashion. I'm trying to focus on getting it to the place where it, I believe it needs to be. And then in terms of my professional career, I don't know yet.

And I'm, I know that I wanna work and scripted. I don't know what that looks like yet. I don't know where that is yet, but I'm open to the possibility of someone seeing me for more than my past.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Let's talk about the nonprofit. Okay. Okay. It's called Hue You Know, talk about what is it and what was the genesis for it?

Bree Frank: Okay. So [00:18:00] how it happened, he was a nonprofit organization that focuses on diversity, equity, and inclusion for black indigenous people of color in film and television. Right. That's like the elevator sentence for it. How it came to be is actually interesting and it has to do a lot with like where my life was when I started at I think 37 or 38.

I am known for having insomnia and I was having like one of those nights where I couldn't sleep and I woke up in the middle of the night. It was like two 30 something in the morning and I looked at, you know, I could tell it was like in the middle of the night. So I looked at my phone for the time and then when I saw the time, I saw the date and the date said February 1st.

And I noted to myself in my mind like, oh, it's the first day of black history. And as I was trying to get myself back to sleep, trying to figure out how many hours, like 3 30, 4 30, 5 36, right? I said to myself like, oh, well what are you doing to contribute to black history? And so that [00:19:00] thought spiraled me into how I could be more active.

You will often hear me say like, everyone has a version of protest. Right? And so when I think about Hugh, Hugh as like my protest, I have low arches in two kids, so marching is probably not gonna be the thing that I can do Do. That's not your lane. It's not necessarily my lane low arches and do this. So I do think that like I re, I originally just started it as like a way to create a safe space for black indigenous people of color.

Right? And I think at the time you were just saying people of color, like bipo wasn't necessarily a thing. Mm-hmm. And I thought like, I am always alone in the room. I'm a black woman in production management. And I often have to be quiet and like swallow my humanity in order to exist inside a lot of these spaces to learn the skillset and to prove worthiness.

And I had acquired, at the time I was like a line producer, right? Like I had acquired a certain set of skills and I just [00:20:00] wanted to give it away. Cuz I do believe that like, as a human, we had to figure out what you love and you give it away, right? So I was like, I'm just gonna create a space and just tell everyone everything that I know.

And then when people don't have, when they have questions, if I know the answer, I'm gonna give it away. And so I like combed through all my Facebook contacts. It was mostly work colleagues. It was like a thousand people and only 27 people were people of color. Hmm. People and I said, Hey everyone, like just add who you know.

And literally again, two 30 in the morning, I'm hysterically giggling to myself, husbands sleep in the bed, like trying to keep quiet, trying to keep the light down, add who you know, I think this is gonna be fantastic, fantastic for us. Let's just show up for each other and be there and be community. And I think by the end of the month there were like 500 or a couple of hundred people that were in the group.

And then I think by the end of the year we are like 2000, 2,500 and we just hit like 21,000, um, [00:21:00] six or seven years later. And so it's really interesting to me a very like, like what happens when you make your thought a thing? Yeah. Right? Because I could have kept it in my head and been like, somebody should create a group that's safe.

And then I was somebody. Somebody really Ana. Um, and so it was a really powerful lesson for me and what happens when I allow myself to make something that I believe in tangible and what can happen for it. And so it it, it's just this thing that has blown up into proportions that I still don't have language for.

And now it's a nonprofit. I turned into a nonprofit in 2020. We had panels and mixers and mentorships, and we work with studios and networks. And I was one of the founders for something called Coded four Inclusion, which helps networks and studios like find talent and was able to leverage this thing that had already been in existence called, uh, website, called Staff me Up and have them optimize their website to make it more intentional.

Cause I [00:22:00] get so tired of people like whispering to me that they were looking for like a black producer or an Asian producer. But I'm like, Hey, do your whispers online. Like you can here, you can go, here's this group of people. Like you can find 'em right here. There you go.

Julie Harris Oliver: And also that really flies in the face of I, I have heard many in executives say, well, there are no people of color who are qualified at this level to do this thing.

We have to go to kindergarten and start a pipeline program. You gathered 21,000 people. Like, yeah, what are you doing people,

Bree Frank: exactly. And so the, what's interesting about Hugh is like there are actors on it, right? And there are people who own production companies. There are people on the studio side, there are freelancers, there are people who work in marketing and branding because like me, didn't know how to get into television, like tried to find my way through commercials.

What if we just looked at people in their skillsets and try to figure out how to cross pollinate them and like just taught them the lexicon of our world so you can build up a skillset. And so I, I know it's not the problem. I know it's how you think about it. [00:23:00] And so I kind of come. I come from it from a very, the perspective of I am the person I am effectively fighting for and I know what hurdles I had to overcome.

So I just try to knock 'em down for other people and just try to, because I have like the respect and the prestige of being an executive and working for the shiny beautiful, like, you know, hello Sunshine, you know, for the past, like, what was like three or four years of my life. Let me have a conversation with you, peer to peer, and tell you what you can't see.

Beautiful. And what are they not seeing? I think that what folks don't see is that, You can't wake up in 2020, Christopher Columbus racism and be like, oh, look what we found. Right. And then,

Julie Harris Oliver: hold on. Not Christopher Columbus. Racism. Like, like, like how a lot of white people just discovered, oh, there's still racism in 2020.

Bree Frank: Yeah. Yeah. Like, welcome to the party. Yeah, we've been waiting. Yeah. Right. You kind of like [00:24:00] walk into it and then you think that your heart is the work. Right. So it's like that. Like yes. And

Julie Harris Oliver: well, you can do a Hearts and Minds tour. Yes. As we found for years and never get to the point of now I'm gonna take action.

Bree Frank: And so first you have to acknowledge that there have been years of exclusionary practices and while it's very well meaning for you to be able to want to fill all of these vacant roles now that you can like see other humans, the truth is that if you have been able to make it through the oppression Olympics that exists within like Hollywood and you are a person of color, like whatever your other ism is, right?

You probably don't need anyone to figure out that you exist because you're, you ha you can create your own lane. You can define your own thing. So people are calling you and you're like, my dance card is booked through 2027. I don't need you. Right. Who need you are the [00:25:00] people that rung under them. Right.

Or the, the people that are under them to be, they need to be invested in, they need to be nurtured, and they're not gonna necessarily be ready for the thing you're trying to set them up for. Because putting someone in a position is not enough. You need infrastructure around that person. Right. Or Russia just setting people up to fail.

Mm-hmm. And so I think that a lot of people, rightfully so, like invest into, you know, high schools and college programs and they're like, oh, this is where the, the magic is. Right? Yes. And, and, Yes. And right. A lot of people think it's top down. We, oh, we need executive buy-in. Yes. And it's also middle out who are the people in managerial positions that you aren't looking, giving a second glance to.

Like, you need to be able to acknowledge that there are people who are just stuck and quiet and afraid to tell you that they want more because they've been positioned [00:26:00] to just be grateful for being in the room.

Julie Harris Oliver: Who's that manager who's been there for 10 years that you've overlooked for promotion? Every single time?

Bree Frank: Yes. And so I think that like, like Sarah Harden talks about like being like a part of the magic, right? So like when someone's in the room, you might overlook how important it is to let someone see your thought process so they can understand the business imperatives, right? And so they come in, they may say something that's off and you're annoyed, but they don't know because no one's let them in the damn room, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: I hear this a lot, like people, especially on production, kind of like the older producers who have gone through, you know, their journey to get where they are. And then the younger people come in, Hey, you said you wanted to hear my voice. I told you the thing. Why aren't you listening to me? And it's been shut down.

Whatever their idea was with no explanation of Yes, that's a great idea, that's gonna cost us 3 million. So we've already thought through why we're not going to do that, [00:27:00] but they don't have the conversation. So the person is left with they're, they're not gonna listen to me and they don't actually wanna hear my voice.

When Yes, if we had that two way conversation, then you're mentoring the people up and then they're gonna know.

Bree Frank: Yes. I think that so many folks in Hollywood, because we are dealing with limited budgets, it's a very scary time specifically in Hollywood right now. Mm-hmm. Right. It was a very scary time during Covid when everyone, uh, like tapped into some of the disparities that exist in the, this industry and then it became a boom and everyone was available and the people were getting pulled up and substances like vacuum of wokeness, uh, right.

That you have to just account for the reason why you have a plan A, B, C, d, E is cuz you were allowed to fail without the same penalty that it would be for a person of color. Yeah. You got to try again. You got to try again. And no one thought, no one treated you. Like an other [00:28:00] or like exceptionalize your being there, right?

Mm-hmm. And I think that, um, I was honored to receive the real screen, um, action award. Inaugural action award for the work that I do in d e I. And one of the things that I said in my speech is like, you have fought really hard to get where you are. I am here to say, people who are doing the d e I work are here to say it was not a fair fight, right?

So, yes, you fought to get there. Of course you did. You worked your ass off. I'm not trying to diminish it, I'm just saying that you fought in a, it was a stacked deck, right? And so I don't need a favor. I need to be like, embraced in the room and what I, what I say needs to matter. And that doesn't mean I don't want.

Criticism. It doesn't mean that I don't want growth. I just don't need the tax to be higher than everyone else. Everyone else? Yeah. Because I missed out on a room that [00:29:00] first I didn't even know about, and then it was very clear that I wasn't invited in.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then going back to that feedback piece, how much of a disservice is it when people in power are afraid to give real feedback to the black person in the room?

Bree Frank: Yes. Like, why can't you find the language? Because I think that everyone is like protecting their own, their own selves and they don't wanna be like canceled. Right? Yeah. What if I say it wrong? What if I say it wrong? What if you knew that you were gonna say it wrong? And what if you approach it from the space of knowing that you might get it wrong and not because you intentionally wanted to get it wrong, but it's because you have been educated and raised to get it wrong.

We've been raised not to see one another. Mm-hmm. That is a very real thing. It is not by accident that you do not know about the true story in the fullness in of humanity of black people. That is not, that is a system who is made sure by design. It's by [00:30:00] design. But now that you know about it, what are you gonna do about it?

That's the thing. Yeah. Now that you know, what are you gonna do about it? Because you can't pretend like you don't know how to care. I know what Carol, do you know what I mean?

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. I think all people also pretend they don't have the power. Yeah. Someone above them has the power. It's like, but you're an executive vice president.

You don't have any power.

Bree Frank: Yeah. And humanity starts with you. And I also, one of the things that I've been saying for years is that like if you wanna change things, you have to become a student to your power and observe what it does in a room. Mm-hmm. And take ownership of it in a meaningful way. And then what is it, what is it that you can take that you have agency over?

Like what is it that you can change? Right? Maybe you can't change the hiring practices, but you can change the way you treat the people that are there right now. Maybe you can't change [00:31:00] who gets invited to the meeting, but you can have a meeting after the meeting to be like, Hey, we just had a meeting and here's, here are the things that are the in business imperatives, and here's what you need to know and here's what, do you have any questions?

And get curious about what someone doesn't know and not penalize them for it. Mm-hmm. You can control that. You can use your power if you have access to information.

Julie Harris Oliver: Your power is in delivering the information, which is the opposite, I think, of what people are brought up thinking is their power is holding onto the information.

Bree Frank: Exactly. Exactly. So, I don't know. I just kind of feel like when people think about the work of diversity, equity, equity, inclusion, and access, that is just treated as an elective. And it kind of drives me nuts because it's staying, um, to people that hu you know, like someone else's humanity is an elective, right?

You get to visit it when you want to, like you're going to the damn zoo and then you get [00:32:00] to, you know, oh I see it. Oh, it's horrible. And you're like, just not acknowledging that. You just elect to go see something in a cage.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, everything else is so much important, so much more important cuz we have to get this on time and on budget and you don't know what I'm dealing with and I have to deliver this show.

I can't also solve racism while I ha I have two weeks to get this thing done. Yeah. I mean that's what I, I think that's what happens and historically it's been acceptable to Yeah,

Bree Frank: to say that. I think that, yeah, I think that there has been a lot of asking for permission to be a human. I've had like studios, you know, that they come and they're like, well, we have this problem and we wanna be able to, you know, let the showrunners, or let the whomever know that this is really important to us and then I, and

Julie Harris Oliver: we're never gonna ask you about it again.

Bree Frank: Yes. And I say, well, are you asking them? Why are you telling them? Right. Think about the business declarative sentences that are made that are [00:33:00] non-negotiable, that happen every single day. And then think about your tone and language when you talk about D E I A. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Apologetic. Please, if you don't mind. If it's not too much trouble.

I hate to bother your creative impulses, but yes. Yeah, I don't, I don't get it. I don't ha Why can't we be as declarative as this is what budget has to be, this is when you have to deliver, here is your schedule.

Bree Frank: Yes. Um, and I think it's to say, like, to acknowledge that, um, there are wonderful, experienced people who can absolutely, absolutely do this work right now.

Then there are wonderfully skilled people who don't have the experience because of this exclusionary practice that we have a responsibility to groom and to bring up so that they have the understanding of what needs to happen in order for our projects to be executed. And that does require a time and investment and not just thoughts and [00:34:00] prayers.

Right? And so there is like, there's some things you're gonna be able to address right now and fix. And there's some things we're gonna have to wait for because we have to pay the tax of forgetting about humanity.

Julie Harris Oliver: How do you talk to people about incorporating the work into the job?

Bree Frank: Well, part of it is just like, I think that you can like put in a set of practices and tell people about, like, when you're doing interview questions, make sure that you're asking, not just, you're not hiring for diversity, but when you're hiring other people, cuz you cannot do this without people who are, you know, have been systemically in power.

Every interview question should be like, can you tell me a little bit about, uh, how you have implemented diversity, equity, and inclusion practices in your hiring? How important is to you tell, give me an example.

Julie Harris Oliver: That should be one of the criteria of leadership.

Bree Frank: Every single person who's being interviewed for a job should be asked [00:35:00] that question.

Yeah. And if they don't answer that question correctly, they. Should not get the job unless you have resources to provide them so that they can learn how to do the thing. Okay. Because it's 2023, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: If you're just now thinking about it or not thinking about it and thinking it's someone else's job and someone else's problem.

No, it's everybody's job.

Bree Frank: Yeah. I think so much of it is just like, um, I think the hardest thing, like you can tell someone like have a, you know, a speaker series, right? Or, and have someone come from different marginalized groups. You can have the conversation where you say, here are you, look, this is, here's how to look at a skillset on resumes and not think about someone's direct experience, but their indirect skills.

And, you know, you can do all of that and none of that will really fix the way you value humanity, right? Like you, until you really get to the heart of, um, that you're [00:36:00] not really going to. You're not really gonna fix the problem. You're like, you're putting a bandaid over like a bullet wound, right? Mm-hmm.

And so I think the companies come up with d e i practices, and they have people do like the, the trainings the same way that after the Me Too movement, a lot of the sexual harassment video trainings came up and people just glow through and they click, click, click, click, click, they

Julie Harris Oliver: roll their eyes, they make, they make sexual harassing jokes.

Oh God. We have to get through this.

Bree Frank: Imagine if someone like gave you a, a, a child to watch and they're like, feed it. Change the diapers, right? And then like, make sure it sleeps. Yeah. Keep it alive. Well, I'm killing this motherhood thing. That baby went to sleep. I fed it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I change of diaper, but.

The soft skills of like hugging a child, making sure the child felt seen, like that's where motherhood is, right? Mm-hmm. Like that's where the thing is, [00:37:00] right? Like the, the nurturing aspects of D E I A I think often aren't addressed. And then the same way, one of the things I've been kind of, um, I've been toiling with is like, imagine a world where, think about any friendship that you have, right?

And how people understand that you value them, right? Or if you are in, um, a disagreement with a, a, a spouse or a partner or whatever the thing is, and they're like, you didn't see me, didn't you see that I was upset? Didn't you see? Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So like, there's a little bit that's really interesting to me that like, As a, I'm gonna say specifically as a black woman, I think the, one of the things that hurt the most is knowing and watching like white people care.

I know, I know what you're, I know what you're capable of. I know what your care looks like, right? When you [00:38:00] see, you know, a dolphin being murdered, right? Or if you see oil over a, a dove and, and there are tears streaming from your

Julie Harris Oliver: eyes. It's when something happens to a dog and everyone, something happens to a dog.

And Katrina, we were more worried about the dogs getting out. Than the people.

Bree Frank: Then when it comes to black people, when they tell you, who you, who they are, what they experience, what their lives are like, that you're not dialed into that from human to human. And it doesn't mean that you can't care about dolphins or dogs, but it's like, where have you been?

Mm-hmm. Right? Like so much of the, um, disconnection in humanity is people saying to you like, where have you been? Right. And just like accepting that part of getting it wrong. Yeah. So like, even if [00:39:00] like, if there's a child who is like adopted, some people search for their birth parents, right? Some people want nothing to do with them.

Or, and when the relationship happens, some people are gonna openly embrace it. Like, oh my God. Like, well, like welcome. And then some kids are gonna be like, where have you been? Yeah. And both experiences are real. And they are true when they both deserve equal amounts of respect. So you are gonna have the experience of black people who will say, oh my God, welcome to the party.

And then you're gonna have black people, anyone who's marginalized going, I'm upset. Like I have been in pain. Like, where have you been? How dare you. How dare you. Yeah. And both reactions have merit.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm surprised it's not more. How dare you? Yeah. I, it it's astounding how much welcome. Let's get on with it.

Bree Frank: There is, [00:40:00] yeah. And I think that, I mean, part of it is that that's true. Some of it is like survival, right? Like what does it mean to, to tell the whole truth in nothing but the truth to your oppressor? Like what is the currency you have to pay? Yeah. To not be welcoming. Some people are not willing to pay that tax.

Damn. It's deep. It's deep. Yeah. It's very deep. And like we're all worthy. And I know that everyone's like juggling all the things, right? You're never dealing with one thing at a time. You're like trying to figure out the thing at work and maybe a sick, and maybe you're struggling with infertility and, and, and, and, and, and.

Right. But where you can show up as a human and to believe people when they tell you who they are and what they've experienced. Right. And not like, try to qualify how you were not the person that believes that. I've come up with a term, and I'm saying I've come up with [00:41:00] it because I, I've been thinking about it for the last, like three months and I've said it that, um, I, in 2020 I've gotten a lot of woke bombing.

What is. This thing happened in 2020, and then there were so many tears, so many phone calls that so many black people received from people. Like, oh my God, was I like that? Or, can you believe I see you? And then when you start to meet other people, when they meet you for the first time, because people, like, if you have been like, uh, designated as a person in, uh, power, right?

You wanna let me know that you're safe. So then you start to run through all the things you know about black people and you're like, am my, am my neighbors a black? And I, I went to a black wedding and Black Lives Matter. And, and I'm like, I'm one of the good ones.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm one of the good ones. I'm a good person.

I'm a good person.

Bree Frank: Hi, my name's Bree, right? [00:42:00] And then people just like throw all the things that they learn onto. It's like, what would you like me to do with this? If you want me to see you as safe, be safe. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, I, I think they're looking for the grade. If you could, if you could bestow the grade upon our Yeah, yeah.

Book.

Bree Frank: Yeah. Well, you know, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. Ok. Ok. And oh, oh, Rosa Parks. Ok. You get an a, like, it's, you kinda have to kinda just like laugh at how scared people are. I have a theory that, like, what happened, like the, all the things that are happening, society all at once, everything all at once, uh, is people are so afraid that if they get something wrong, they, they're gonna morph into like someone who wears khaki pants and walks with a tiki torch, right?

That they don't wanna be affiliated or associated with that mentality. So they would destroy you to make sure that you don't think that. [00:43:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. When I, when I interviewed Dr. Kira Banks, you talked about, um, one of the real barriers for people is coming to grips with, uh, white people wanting to be a good person so badly that they can't see that they're sitting inside of a racist system.

Yes. Right. So you can't start to break apart the system cuz you're so consumed with, but I'm a good person. How can I, yeah. How can I be in this terrible system?

Bree Frank: It's like, well, you are, you are we all, are we all, are we all by the way, I'm in it too. Yeah. Right.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's like everyone's job to dismantle the system.

Bree Frank: Yeah. Then you need to be able to create disruption where it matters like your kids, um, when they are, are you welcome and are you safe in inside spaces where you aren't centering yourself? Right. Like when you think about your world, it's really interesting to have people like have all these like D E I A initiatives and they [00:44:00] want all of their colleagues in the, the, the community at work to change how they are.

But when they go home, they just go back to the rhythm of their lives that are just exclusionary by practice, like by the design of the system. And so then you want them to just like come in the world, start singing We Are the World. And like holding Tina in accounting. Like I don't understand

Julie Harris Oliver: like the black people in their lives are the work.

Yeah. And not just the black people in their lives.

Bree Frank: Yeah, exactly. And so I know that it's frustrating and I know that it's scary and I think that a lot of people don't talk enough about like the fear, right? Like D E I A work is not just about like diversity, it's about power, culture, and fear. Right. It's about power dynamics.

It's about like the way of life. It's about the constitution of a company that is not defined by the things you write on paper, but the lived experience of the, the community that that exists within, within that frame. Right. [00:45:00] It's about not just about the fear of what it means to show up as your authentic self and to be heard, but it's also like the fear of getting it wrong.

It's all the things, like, it's not one specific thing. No internship program is gonna fix like inherently racist practices, right? Like no. Um, pipeline program is going to change the power dynamics that exist inside Hollywood. Hollywood changes when we change.

Julie Harris Oliver: Mm-hmm. No press release or marketing campaign to make you look a certain way is gonna change the inside culture of your company.

Bree Frank: No, because if I wanna know who you are, I just look at your about us page. You can't lie to me about that. Mm-hmm. With all the pictures. Yeah. That's, that's your constitution. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. You know, we talked a lot about when I was, when I had a job recently, we talked a lot about, you know, stop talking about diversity and start talking about equity and inclusion and creating a space that diversity can [00:46:00] thrive in.

Cuz otherwise you can hire all the people you want if you're still gonna treat them terribly and they can't show up as themselves or they have to come as white people. Yeah.

Bree Frank: You've missed Yeah, and like, belonging. The, the idea of belonging. Think about like if you went on a road trip and you had the most people from different, uh, backgrounds in the car, what would the radio station be?

Who picks the radio station? Right? Yeah. You gotta karaoke and you're thinking about the songs that people sing. Right. Like you might belt out Bonjovi and I'm waiting for Luther Van Dros to kick it. Mm-hmm. Like, do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Both things are beautiful, but also to be black is to know all the white karaoke songs.

That was dominant culture. Yes. Dominant culture. Right. Like when people think about, it's always like, people are like, I don't know what to do. I'm like, do you go to films with all? Do you go watch movies with all black people in it? Why Or we not? Do [00:47:00] you think romcom with all black people is relevant to your life?

That's cost nothing except for the, the movie ticket.

Julie Harris Oliver: And it's such deep conditioning. Even when you think about, you know, gender, like we are all conditioned to be interested in stories about white

men.

Yeah. And, and men are not expected or conditioned to be interested in stories about women. And I think the same goes for race.

And we we're, we're all conditioned to enjoy, enjoy stories about white people

Bree Frank: and, and straightness and like, yes, the straightness thing is huge.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. The cis straight, white male.

Bree Frank: It's, it's all the things. And can I tell you something else that's really interesting to me that I thought, um, this might be like a, a pivot from the, the topic, but I think that it, it's, it's relevant.

Yeah. It's like as you try to do the work, especially, I wanna specifically say this to white woman, stop throwing white men under the bus. [00:48:00] Okay. There's a really interesting thing to me where I'm watching, uh, white women disassociate from white men and not take accountability for their behavior. Like, think about it this way, right?

There's something, we can't do this without everyone, right? Yeah. White women have a very interesting place in the society where they are absolutely oppressed, but they've also been high benefactors of oppression. And that in a lot of ways, like certainly like black women's oppression has been reliant on catering to white women.

Back to like, you go way, way, way back forever, but how, like the nursing of the babies and how we stood shoulder to shoulder being oppressed by white men, but white women were exalted [00:49:00] in the, in the mind frame during enslavement, right? Mm-hmm. And so I just kind of want, sometimes I want folks to dial into the like, where have you been?

Right? It goes back that far. Like just watching someone who looks like you in every way except, except for skin tone, disassociate from your humanity to save themselves. And that's hard to reconcile with. But the truth is that the only people on this planet that make white men who are their fathers and their brothers as white women, so hold them accountable in the silent and secret places that we will never be privy to.

Mm-hmm. Right In the bedroom in at Thanksgiving. Like, don't distance yourself from the people who are oppressing you and oppressing everyone else, because until we get them on [00:50:00] board, nothing's really gonna change. Right. You gotta kind of, of course, you gotta fold them into the process of. Having them responsible for a lot of the things that are happening in this world.

And that can't happen if everyone puts them in a box in a corner. Like, how do we think this is gonna pan out?

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, I, I think it's so true. And as a whole, I think we give them a pass with very low expectations, cuz it's always like, oh, let's focus on all of these groups who can make a difference. We're not even gonna try with those people cuz we know they're not gonna do anything, so let's not talk about how they vote and they get a complete pass.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Bree Frank: So agreed. We need to hold 'em. Yeah. Like I think that there is just like something to everyone taking accountability for how they show up. Black people have a responsibility for how they show up. Right? And sometimes it's like more, whatever your other ism is, forget it. It's like crazy consequential.

But everyone. Gets to come along for the ride of, [00:51:00] you know, humanity. Like no one, I don't think that anyone gets to abstain from the vote, you know what I mean? And so I just wanna sometimes like, I, like I'm watching this weird thing happen and I'm kind of like, what is that? I don't make white men, I can't have them.

They, when you're in Thanksgiving and they're saying crazy shit at the table, like, why

Julie Harris Oliver: is it, oh, we can't reach them, so let's just forget it. Yeah. Like what?

Bree Frank: Yeah, when I kinda, I feel like when I, when I think about my own life and, and how it is that I want to live it when I'm showing up as like my most authentic self, not trying to be perfect, but like just enamored by the process, I think that, oh, your hate is not safe with me.

Hmm. That's such a small step, right? Someone, cuz you can do it on a stage, right? You can do it in front of black people. I see you. I, you know, or

Julie Harris Oliver: you know, but it is, it is, it's shutting it down at Thanksgiving. [00:52:00] It's shutting it down in your living room. Like it's, it's not safe to talk that way inside your house.

Yeah.

Bree Frank: And I don't need you to start a war, right? I don't want you to not talk to your uncle Tim, but why can't you say, I, I actually don't believe that. Are you willing to sit in the uncomfort of that? Because how could you do the work at work, right. If you can't do it in your home, right. Oh, that's just my crazy stepdad.

I don't believe that my kids play with beautiful brown children or queer children and I welcome them into my home and pretend that they're safer. But then when I go off to a place, I am more concerned with how people think about me. And I'm more concerned with my comfort than I am with humanity. So in this moment when someone is saying something wrong and my stomach goes in a bubble and I feel like that actually makes me nauseous, what I'm gonna do in this moment is get quiet.

No, no.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think [00:53:00] the collectively those days kind of have to be over. Yeah. Quit

Bree Frank: giving that uncle a pass. Yeah. I always, I've been saying since, uh, 2017, which perfectly aligns with Donald Trump getting elected ruin Thanksgiving. Oh yeah. 2000, 2016. Like we're just ruin thanksgiving. Just sit at the table and be like, I'm not gonna take it anymore.

I feel like, I feel like this is not okay. Pass the peas. This is wrong.

Julie Harris Oliver: Pass the peas and knock it off.

Bree Frank: Yeah. Peas and knock it off.

Julie Harris Oliver: We're not doing that anymore. We're noting the old races guy at the table.

Bree Frank: Yeah. And then maybe he's always gonna be racist, but maybe he doesn't get to feel safe being racist around you.

Yeah. Maybe he's always gonna be homophobic. He knows. Go somewhere else with that. That conversation's not gonna be tolerated with me. And only, maybe only, you know, don't then get on a bullhorn and Twitter and tell everyone. But you [00:54:00] have now created boundaries around how you will allow other humans to be treated or talked about in your presence.

Isn't that one of the,

Julie Harris Oliver: I don't even know how to describe it, but one of the effects of having Trump around was people feeling so safe, being so shitty.

Bree Frank: Yeah. And I wanna hear what they have to say. I wanna know where I stand. Yeah, that's fine. Right. But you don't get to have a bullhorn. A bullhorn moment in my home.

Yeah. So I know that it's like, it's scary and it's hard and I don't want people to like go to war or cause conflict. You know, with, you know, stepping on a pulpit and declaring, but there, I think that there are micro progressions that we can make towards changing the way that we think and how we act and how we show up in spaces.

And once you kind of figure that out, then it's easier to step into the work and for [00:55:00] it to be meaningful.

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you just coin that word? I

Bree Frank: don't think I coined micro progressions. I did not, I don't think I coined it. I'm pretty sure I heard it on, uh, Instagram.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. I think we're gonna use that now. Let's go for it.

Let's go, let's start committing some micro progressions.

Bree Frank: Yeah. What are the little steps that you can take towards like, because then it's like, you know, uh, it's anything, it's being, uh, you know, a mother or a friend or a spouse. So like how do you, how do you let people know that you give a shit? Yeah. It's not just telling them, it's showing them.

Julie Harris Oliver: And it can be simple. It can be someone says something you say, it's not cool.

Bree Frank: We don't talk like that here. Exactly. Micro progressions.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. What else do you wanna tell me about hue you know?

Bree Frank: Um, I'm really excited about part of this break that I'm taking this sabbatical, which some people could coin in as a midlife crisis because I quit a very beautiful job, uh, in [00:56:00] the middle of a recession.

Um, but I would like to think about just the ability to like sit and reframe some of the work that we're doing in a meaningful way. And so my team and I had a beautiful like summit in early Q1 to think about how we could create more impact. And so we're working on pipeline programs that are bespoke to different studios and networks that we're trying to figure out like how to do it in a really meaningful way with training programs.

And so when you think about Hue, it's like we are curriculum connection and culture. And so we wanna build, have people, allies. You are welcome to teach, you know, a syllabus of like six weeks of like how to show run, how to direct, right? And let people go through like a training program so they can have different skill sets that are built inside a safe space.

And then we want to feed them into different pipelines for. [00:57:00] You know, stu production companies, um, that are like championed by studios. And then we wanna have like really tough conversations to just discuss like, where have you been? Let's talk about it. Yeah, let's, what scares you the most? And just like, you know, have panels and mixers and we're supposed to be at Martha's Vineyard this year, and so I just kind of wanna focus on this program and build capital and raise capital.

Cause it's very, very, very tough to run a nonprofit. Um, it's, it's in the name is what I'll say. Um,

um, and so I just want to like, you know, create more buy-in and be able to build the capital so I can impart some like, really meaningful change in this industry and kind of just disrupt it in love.

Julie Harris Oliver: Disrupt it in love. So if people are looking to hire people and they go to hue you know, do you have people in all kinds of disciplines and jobs and crafts?

Bree Frank: Yeah. So part of the partnership that I [00:58:00] have with Coded four inclusion is because, you know, as a nonprofit it's very difficult to create the resources to, to be able to answer all of the Incre inquiries. Mm-hmm. What we will do is if you reach out to us and you want us to post it in the, the Facebook community, which has a lot like very high engagement, like we're kind of happy to do that.

But the partnership that I have with Coded four inclusion for now is like sitting as the space where you can use very easy tools to find talent and kind of use their diversity mattress that I helped build with a, a very beautiful team of wonderful like leaders in the industry.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So if I was looking for someone I would go to coded for inclusion

Bree Frank: and you go to staff me and you can use Oh, staff me up.

Okay. Yeah. So you go to staff me up and then you can use their diversity tools and if you want like, uh, Amazon is signed on with assigned on with us in like Paramount, and they will lease out this product that we've created to the different production companies so long as you have a project with [00:59:00] them.

And then as a production company, if you wanted it, you could talk to Jamie Rosenberg about like how to sign up for an enterprise addition to be able to have these filters. And it's, I mean, it's. Really smart. Um, and really easy. It's like, it's easy as booking a flight, you know, on like Google Flights.

Great. Um, and I wanted it to be easy cause I know how hard everything is and it allows for you to be forward thinking and that you can kind of sleuth through who already exists and then build a contact list to call on instead of waiting till the last minute and you're like, I was looking for people but I had two days.

So I just call who I knew. You can kind of be forward thinking in the way that you approach it, which is I think, the best part of it. And then, and then in terms of other things, like people, like, I weirdly got an email from the Vice President's office looking for someone one, and I was like, whoa. The

Julie Harris Oliver: Vice President of the United States?

Bree Frank: Of the United States. Oh, wonderful. Cause [01:00:00] they wanna be able to just, you know, spread the, you know, spread the word, which I think is like, so I. Beautiful. That incredible, you know, people to intentionally hire and it doesn't guarantee anything, but it is a step in the right direction to make sure that a community that is often excluded is getting access to the opportunity to just apply.

Yeah. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: What is advice you would give to people who are trying to get in now

Bree Frank: to network your tail off? Find your elevator pitch and to do it unconventional, like do it in an unconventional manner. Like there is no clean line, I think, on how to get inside the business. Like if you wanna become a dentist, the road is, you know, it broke up for you.

Yeah. Step by step. Yeah. But, um, this industry, I think falsely says that it's, it's a meritocracy. And I think that there is, um, there is some truth to it, but it really is who you know, um, and you, and unfortunately you have to start at the u well, not unfortunately, but you [01:01:00] have to start at the bottom, right?

Like you have to pa or be an assistant and then network your tail off to help people undersee your value. But that's not gonna ha that's not gonna happen until you do the job that you were hired for, which is often overlooked.

Julie Harris Oliver: So be very clear about what that job is that you've been hired for.

Bree Frank: Yeah, I, um, I love people who come in and tell me that they wanna direct and it's like an assistant position.

I'm like, great. I would love to introduce, I would love to make you a director, but can you, can you first help me with my schedule?

Julie Harris Oliver: Ask me that? Yes, I could clerk, I could, I could be an accountant, clerk, or also if they need a director,

Bree Frank: I'm available. But it's like the desperation get inside this business.

Like there's no clean way. So you kind of have to, you gotta do a little bit of lying, like apply, do the job that you applied for and kind of like only talk about that. And then once people like you, then tell 'em what you really wanna do.

Julie Harris Oliver: And don't be afraid to tell people what you really wanna do. Yeah.

They wanna help you.

Bree Frank: First you have to do the job that you are [01:02:00] applying for. And I think that like I'm, I am telling you as someone, especially who works in production management, that you would get someone who tells you, you're like, yes, I wanna work in this department. I love physical production. And you look on their resume and it's like acting, directing.

It's like, you're gonna leave me in a year. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So like, you kind of gotta trick people. Let them fall in love with you and then tell 'em what it is that you wanna do. Once you have buy trick the people.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's our takeaway trick. The people.

Bree Frank: That's my, that's my tip. But if you go in and tell 'em, tell someone that you actually wanna do something else and you show other interests, like people are like, they're inherently selfish.

Like you want someone that's gonna stick around and not leave you in success. And I've had it happen to me a couple times. I, I hired someone I desperately needed and then, She got a call from SNL to be a writer and lasted like four days. And I was like, actually I would quit too. Like, I'm gonna be supportive.

Yeah,

Julie Harris Oliver: of course. Go take the SNL job, but also don't take your job in the first place.

Bree Frank: Yeah. But she got like the call of a lifetime [01:03:00] and I've actually, it's happened to me more times than I can count and I'm always supportive cause I want people to supportive cause I want people to follow their dreams, but in my mind I'm kinda like, damn it, I really need this one.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. What did I not ask you about that I should have asked you about?

Bree Frank: Ooh, I love this question and now I don't have an answer for it. Um, I don't know if you didn't ask me this, but I wanna say one thing, that privilege is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. That's what I wanna say.

Julie Harris Oliver: Do you wanna, do you wanna unpack that more?

Bree Frank: Yeah. That like, I, there's so much questions around, like, I didn't ask for this, right? It was just given to me like I worked hard for it and like, just don't center yourself. When you think about how to do this work, I think that you're gonna fail every single time to kind of get the point, and so you have a responsibility to just acknowledge that you have more privilege.

I don't care if it's only by a hair. It is [01:04:00] real. It exists. It gives you a leg up, so it is your responsibility to not just see. Things through the your lens, right? To open up your eyes to other people's humanity and what is it they see and do you believe them? And then once you believe them, do something about it.

Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: How are you gonna use that power for good?

Bree Frank: Yeah, for good.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Bree, thank you so much.

Bree Frank: Thank you so much for having me.

Julie Harris Oliver: You've been listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. Thank you to Bree Frank for sharing her wisdom. Her website is hueyouknow.com. That's H U E Y O U K N O w.com.

Special thanks to Jay Rowe, Danny Rosner and Allison McQuaid for the music. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcast and rate and leave a review If this is meaningful to you to help other people find it. If you have a company and you'd like to be a sponsor, please reach out. You can find me in my [01:05:00] work@julieharrisoliver.com.

If you're looking for simple, yet effective tools to bring to your production or even just want some help and starting to talk about it, give me a call and go check out the Catch A Break podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. Coming in July. We have our Project Greenlight season to go along with that series on max.

Thanks for listening. See you next time.

EP 227: MyKhanh Shelton

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] You're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. We are continuing our series of talking with experts who work in various aspects of diversity, equity, and inclusion across industries and in entertainment. Today I sat down with MyKhanh Shelton, a brilliant d e i practitioner and attorney with more than 20 years of experience as a legal and diversity, equity and inclusion advisor in the media and entertainment industry.

MyKhanh Shelton has deep expertise in identifying, evaluating, and mitigating legal risks and a proven track record of designing people, strategies and systems to attract and retain diverse workforces and foster inclusive cultures. From 2020 to 2022, MyKhanh served as Senior Vice President Enterprise Inclusion for Warner Media, where she was res.

Responsible for leading workforce D E I initiatives for Warner Media's global workforce of 30,000 employees, including production safety initiatives across Warner Brothers hbo, and H B O Max Productions. Prior to Warner Media, MyKhanh [00:01:00] served as Senior Vice President Global Inclusion at 21st Century Fox, where she led initiatives to increase diversity and inclusion across the company's 20,000 person workforce in film, television, sports, news, and digital businesses.

She also advised internal and external partners on matters related to diversity of stories, betrayals and representation in the entertainment industry. Prior to forming the D E I Center of Excellence, she served as the company, senior Vice President, Fox Group Legal. In that role, she led litigation teams across the US represented Fox and industry-wide litigation and initiatives.

And advise senior executives on a wide variety of employment related matters. She is no slouch. She holds a Bachelor of Arts from UCLA and a Juris doctor from UC Berkeley. She serves on the boards of Facing History and Ourselves and Promax, and we will learn more about these as well. We talked about meeting people where they are using data to inform the work.

And her particular philosophy of speaking truth to power with love and data. Here have a listen. MyKhanh Shelton, welcome to the other [00:02:00] 50%.

MyKhanh Shelton: Thank you for having me.

Julie Harris Oliver: So I would love to start at the beginning and hear the journey from law school to d e I professional. So how did it start?

MyKhanh Shelton: Yeah, so I went to law school at Berkeley with the goal of becoming a civil rights attorney.

I really love advocating for people and issues that I believe in. So as a lawyer, I went to a business litigation firm. I went to the top firm in the country to get my training. Um, and there I really took to employment law cases. I was staffed on like big public utilities cases. I was staffed on big pharmaceutical cases.

Then I had these little employment cases where it was me and the client understood and was very, To the very human-centric nature of those cases. So I, I really chose to stay in the practice of employment law and went to Fox Film and Television to take an [00:03:00] in-house employment law role. And so, you know, that's what I did for the first few years of my career.

Not really intending to stay in, you know, entertainment or in the studio system, but as I, you know, moved through the ranks. I realized how much great work and how much impact could be had within a corporate environment and how many people's lives you can affect, and how much of the people that I was working with were affecting content and culture at large.

And so I stayed and I worked on a lot of really cutting edge limit law cases. There was a. Television writers age discrimination case that I led the defense of for Fox did a lot of very interesting work, but ultimately it was in the more proactive preventative work that I was most interested. And so I took a more advice and council role and that led me to, [00:04:00] you know, working with executives, working with human resources teams to really understand, you know, how to create great environments for people.

Julie Harris Oliver: So what did that work look like in the early days of, oh, there's something here in entertainment we need to get a handle on.

MyKhanh Shelton: Uh, gosh. It, it, it a company as big as Fox, right? That has, you know, so many different lines of business. I'll focus on the production side since this is, uh, production podcast. You know, one of the, one of the early, uh, issues I handled was with a production that was really successful.

I mean, at the time it was the highest rated show. On this particular network and there was an issue that came up, uh, conflict. There was, you know, a complaint that was made. Somebody believed they were being mistreated, and so we put some measures in place. That were really transformative, right? I mean, we started slowly, we [00:05:00] started like opening up channels of communication.

We started asking people to be more explicit with what their needs were, more explicit with what the challenges were, and then we brought in resources from across the studio. The thing is, a lot of productions have access. To resources at a studio, at a network, you know, within the community, but they're not often used or pulled together.

But they barely know about it. Oh, exactly. Exactly. Didn't even know about it or felt like it was scary or, you know, didn't understand that, you know, this is, it could have been, you know, remedial and not punitive. Right. If you call physical security, that doesn't mean like somebody's in trouble. If you call hr, that doesn't trouble, right?

Um, if you have the network executive out there on a set day or physical production executive out there on the set day, right, those folks could be access to information. They could be access. And a conduit to more resources. So we brought [00:06:00] those types of resources together and we set up a cadence of conversations in the writer's room.

A cadence of conversation with department heads and the receptiveness to all of these measures was just completely mind blowing people. It was everyone was,

Julie Harris Oliver: were they so relieved?

MyKhanh Shelton: They were so relieved. And by the end of by of producers called and.

We came in on time. We came in on budget more often than any of the previous three seasons, and he thanked me for doing all this because it was not without risk. I was like opening up this potential Pandora's box of issues and problems. But that was very, I was hooked once I set up that inclusion plan and saw the success of it.

And saw that it could be done. I just really firmly believed that we needed to have [00:07:00] these on all of our productions. And so as kinda an informal way into the work, even while I was in the legal department, this is what we were doing on set.

Julie Harris Oliver: It kind of flies in the face of, which I think has been the attitude for, I don't know, give or take a hundred years of the tortured artist.

Mm-hmm. You know, and you have to kind of go through the torture to get the creative thing out. And I think what, what you proved out is that the opposite is actually true. Yes,

MyKhanh Shelton: exactly. Exactly. People just thought the rules and if you, oh, you have to, um, have policies. Those things were for like, you know, the corporate stooges.

They're not for people over here and creative, but it turns out people like clarity. I mean, it just really helped people understand what their rules were and what the expectations were, and just help build trust within the production. I think that trust is what allowed people to be even more [00:08:00] creative.

Exactly that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like putting up the guardrails and then allowing people to come and be who they are and contribute what they need to contribute. Exactly. Without being in

MyKhanh Shelton: chaos. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You was energy that were going into story, going into the work product, so. The walking on

Julie Harris Oliver: eggshells

MyKhanh Shelton: energy takes it outta you.

Exactly. And so I learned so much on that one. I learned so much because, you know, it was a season four at the time of this part particular series, and people thought, oh, once we got through the first season and the second season, we thought all the relationships and all the things that were working. Were all the things that we needed, but understanding that the dynamic of the production really radically changed from season to season.

You know, season one, you're just so happy. Everyone's so happy to have a job and have, you know, be in production. Everyone's willing to really, uh, accept and tolerate everything like good and bad behavior. Right? And [00:09:00] then season two, that dynamic of, okay, wait, now we're hired back. The stakes are a little bit higher, right?

But now we've formed some. And so you, season two goes soy. Out any round rules or you haven't like done the things that are like good hygiene for our production. And then it was season three, which is exactly how it played out here. The, the wheels started to come off Right and then Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: You know, and then if you make it to season five, I always joke, that's when people start stealing.

Yes. And embezzling. Cuz everyone gets very comfortable. The budgets get big now you think you have a job for the next 20 years. And Exactly.

MyKhanh Shelton: It gets dicey. It was always like, well, you know, let's not do season one. Let's, if it. Wait till season two and then season two, but everything's going so well. Oh, season three now everyone knows each other.

Everything, you know. No problems exist. We're all fine. It's fine. Yeah, exactly. That's when you have high. So

season two and season three. Alert always high. Yeah. [00:10:00] Or

Julie Harris Oliver: do set something up in season one and don't just wing it and hope it all turns out okay. Yes. Yes.

MyKhanh Shelton: That would be maybe, yes. That, that is the textbook way to do it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Okay. So then if we're talking about, um, this is about 2011, you started doing this, and then around 20 15, 20 16, we got to, uh, Oscar.

So white was a big one. How, how did that affect what you were doing? Um, there

MyKhanh Shelton: was a lot of media attention. There was a lot of consumer and. Political pressure on the industry to really examine why is hashtag Oscar so white? Why is there such a lack of diversity in filmmaking? USC was doing, you know, really meaningful research work showing us what the data looked like.

Ucla, their Hollywood report is really, really, you know, critical in showing people, look, there's a real problem with the lack of diversity in Hollywood. And so all of those studies and all [00:11:00] the press and the hashtags and the, all the social media around it. Really brought a lot of consumer pressure and political pressure on the studios.

So, and then there was also threat of litigation. So my job as a lawyer was to go figure out our legal position. But as I researched and as I talked to executives within the company, within the industry, the more interesting question to me and to a lot of executives at the.

Even if there is no unlawful discrimination, which for a number of reasons, you know, there were gonna be very sound legal defense

problems. Right. I was more interested in. What the problem is and how we were gonna solve it. Looking at the data was so helpful because even talking to executives who are the ones who are green lighting, they're the ones day in day out who are making all these hiring [00:12:00] decisions, right? I think really earnestly, they were surprised by the patterns that they saw in the data because you know, any single decision could be justified and everybody thinks they're making great decisions.

They think that they're doing their best, and so you really had to. Step and look at data over the years, data over the whole studio system industry.

So that's what led me into the work of d e I more formally and at the time there was so much great work being done in academia. So much great work being done, you know, in among practitioners and, um, economists to really understand this. And we knew, or at least my pitch. Was, this was a professionalized function that needed to have its own resources that we needed to bring in expertise in this uh, area.

And it could not be, well just as a side project. [00:13:00] Um, on top of like a legal department or on top of a, you know, HR department's, you know, normal work.

Julie Harris Oliver: So did you go in and pitch it and

MyKhanh Shelton: create this role? Myself and a number of other executives at the company, labor department, employment department, hr, we all really as a joint effort pitched out the creation of.

Fox inclusion and it wasn't without a lot of debate and, you know, really robust conversation about whether or not that was prudent, right? There were some people who said, you know, if you professionalize it and you create a different department that's gonna absolve executives and that's gonna absolve people from their own responsibility because isn't it everybody's job.

To work on d e I, right? And so, and there are other people who have said, you know, we've tried that in the past and it didn't work, and you know, it's not working anywhere else. Why would we do this whole thing now? What would we do differently? So there was a lot of conversation about it, and ultimately there was a [00:14:00] lot of, a lot of data, a lot of research pointing to the need for us to better understand what the workforce was gonna look like, what the demographics of our audience.

What behavioral science was telling us is happening, what is standing in our own way? So yeah, so we got a department approved and then I headed up that department. We created Fox Inclusion, very film and television. And then over time it very successful that we had a lot of, we had a lot of interest. And so then I was um, I guess you'd say elevated to head up Century Fox.

Inclusion across the portfolio of Century Fox businesses, which for the most part now is part of Disney. And then some parts left as Fox, uh, the network. Well done. It was quite a ride. Yes,

Julie Harris Oliver: I bet. Okay, so now you're A D E I professional. How do you really approach it and what's your philosophy? How do you [00:15:00] start?

MyKhanh Shelton: I start from the top because I firmly believe that leadership really matters. Um, and I think that could sound obvious, but there are a lot of people who approach it from a grassroots effort. They approach it from, you know, ERGs and you know, from the employee base, which I think all of those things are really important and I think everyone has a part to play.

And I think, um, employee resource groups and. You know, kind of the grassroots activism that we see happening within corporations now are so important. I think to accelerate the change that we need to see, it really has to start from the top. And so I start from the top and I like to think of my approach as, you know, speaking truth to power with love and data.

And then it might sound like a weird thing that I, I, and I mean love with. A real [00:16:00] open heart and a real open mind to, and their capacity for change. So it's that.

So you're not

Julie Harris Oliver: coming in as the diversity lady cop?

MyKhanh Shelton: No, definitely not. Definitely not. I, and I don't actually even say that I come, uh, truth of power with love and data. I just come with the belief that people want a better world. People want a better workplace for their colleagues, for themselves. People want do their best work, and to do that, they need to understand people.

They need understand. Identities they need to understand and practice empathy. And I was really like, one of the conversations that I had in 20, you know, when we were all in the reckoning. I, you know, had this conversation with this executive that really, really stuck [00:17:00] with me. He said that I was the first person he had talked to on these topics of diversity, equity, inclusion, who did not expect to be disappointed by him.

And that really kept him in conversation and I really thought about that a second say, I could see how hard that would be. This is a cis white man, and if he's going into conversations with people who just expect to be disappointed in him, you know, like he's already in trouble. He's already in trouble, and it's gonna be really, really hard all around to keep that conversation going.

So, I, um, I really took that feedback to heart and I really think about that a lot. Cause, you know, sometimes it's hard to give people the benefit of the doubt, like history tells you, history tells. Yeah. There are lots of people who, I don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, but I think it's, I think it's necessary.

And I listen to your podcast with Kira Banks and when she said, you know, choosing Hope is an active practice. I think, you know, choosing, [00:18:00] choosing hope, choosing, you know, to give people the benefit of the doubt, those are active practices and I, I think that I find it most effective to approach it with that hopefulness and with that assumption of good intent,

Julie Harris Oliver: it's probably so much more effective than, I know you don't wanna do this and I'm gonna make you Yes.

It's gonna be terrible. Exactly.

MyKhanh Shelton: Well, I, you know, I've seen so many people go into conversations about, Whether it's HR or D E I or really like anything related to, you know, people a little bit apologetically, like I, sorry, we have to do, I'm harassment training painless. Let's just get Sorry to bother you.

Yeah, exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: Exactly. I know you're busy and important. This is beneath your regard.

MyKhanh Shelton: Exactly. It's like, wait, why? Why are we doing this? Why are we selling this executive short? Why are we selling the work short? Why are we selling the potential to change short? I mean, I understand why, because you know, a [00:19:00] lot of people are, are, you know, have been made to think that this is a nuisance.

And so of course to be polite, you gotta apologize, I suppose, if you're gonna be a nuisance to somebody. Well,

Julie Harris Oliver: we've literally heard the phrase, hasn't this all

MyKhanh Shelton: gone a bit too far? Exactly, yes. So yeah, I think that's just a misunderstanding of what this is. So, Take a deep breath, go. You take a deep breath and you must be misunderstanding what we're doing.

Can't possibly mean that. So, uh, I try to approach things. I try to approach things with a sets of humor. I try, I try to approach things with, uh, an open heart and I assume good intentions and I. I think my work is to operationalize them. Great.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now going back to the data of it all, cause I think that's so powerful.

Cause I think people may have a lot of feelings about things or feel like they're doing the right thing or feel like, well, gosh, what was that study where they said when, like on a board of directors, if there's. One [00:20:00] woman, the men in the room have the feeling like, oh, problem solved. Mm-hmm. We have equality.

And for women, when three women are in the room, they feel like, oh, problem solved. We've reached equality. But when actually, if you looked at the data, neither one of them are at equity or equality. Right? Yeah. So it's so powerful to have the numbers and the data. So tell us how you. How you approach it with the data, how you use it, how it informs what you do.

Okay,

MyKhanh Shelton: so in so many ways, like we talked about the UCLA report and the USC report, and there's a San Diego State report, like those at a very macro level, I think. Help to situate ourselves in this industry so we know what we're dealing with, right? So we know that if this is an industry wide problem, we need to have real collaborative efforts across the industry.

We all need to be working on this together because, uh, this is an industry in which people move around so much. And, you know, [00:21:00] the, the culture of the industry is just so entrenched that we need to have that understanding. There's a use for big data to give you that content. Mm-hmm. And then I would say, you know, data can also sound very scary to people.

And I would suggest that people think about the data that is within their control. Right? So if they're, uh, a higher manager, what records are they keeping in terms of, you know, the numbers of people they're seeing, the resumes they're reading, who they're interviewing, who and what the criteria are. For making the decision on who to hire, right?

That's, uh, a use of data that I think is often overlooked. Cause people think of data as like, you know, big data sets and like, you know, it needs to be mass numbers on a big spreadsheet, you know, Excel spreadsheet. When I think anybody could benefit from the use of data in their own decision making. Cause it'll keep you honest.

Julie Harris Oliver: Just that [00:22:00] example. Right now I'm cataloging all the people I know who've hired people who have piles of resumes. I don't know one person who gives that spreadsheet. Yeah.

MyKhanh Shelton: Right. That's what, so I think it's a real discipline. Um, it doesn't take that much time. It takes effort and it takes the willingness to be confronted with what you might see.

And that's, that's bit hard. So I think really giving yourself grace to say, all right. Let me, let me just start collecting this and lemme start thinking about this and lemme work with whomever it's right. Get a partner in this, whether it's your colleague, whether it's your HR person, whether it's your D person, so that you could talk through what's happening.

We've talked for so many pipeline problem, you know, pipeline into the industry. Are the candidates there? Who are the candidates? What. Should the benchmarks be, but I think that we continue to talk about it without making the progress we wanna make. Cause we don't follow through [00:23:00] well enough individually or collectively.

But here, let's talk individual, right? If you, your hiring process. Right, and you see who you are pulling from who your candidate pool is. Then I think it's also really important to lay out really clearly what your criteria for hiring will be. You mean it

shouldn't

Julie Harris Oliver: be just who do I feel really good with in this interview?

Who feels the most like me? Yes. Who

MyKhanh Shelton: reminds me of myself? Exactly. It should not be that and. I think it should not be. I think what happens is people get very, very explicit on the mechanical skills needed for the job. Right. The like, okay. You know, if you're talking about production accounting, whether or not they could actually do the math, build the spreadsheets, like, you know, submit the reports.

Those types of things without putting enough weight and time and energy into the leadership [00:24:00] aspects of the role. And so when we do, and when I have seen people do it, they added onto a job description. You know, at the end. It's like the last two bullet points, like oh yes. And leadership skills and like building a team.

But then when you get into the interview process or you get into really unpacking what those things mean, People don't go far enough in what I've seen to really understand and apply those criteria fairly across all the candidates, right? So then on some people who do have the those skills, you'll say, okay, well good, they're necessary.

Where other people don't have the skills, but you wanna hire them, you're like, ok, well those were preferences and they were not requirements, right? And you're gonna be very flexible with how you apply the job description. To meet who you expect to hire. So, and this is how

Julie Harris Oliver: you get the super technical wizard at the top of a tech department who can't talk to people Exactly.

But is an amazing architect.

MyKhanh Shelton: [00:25:00] Exactly. Exactly. So I think even using data to track how you're asking those questions, right? So in these, have I asked these questions and you know, what am I seeing in terms of the responses? So that even over time, if you're not able to hire exactly. To fit those criteria, because let's.

Give people the benefit, the doubt. Maybe they applied it criteria and they still couldn't find the right person who had all those skills. So compromise

in your who lacking those particular leadership skills. And so then you can invest in building those leadership skills internally, or you can go recruit for those particular skills. But it's hard to keep track of all of that unless you literally keep track of that. And so I think of data in big and small ways.

I think it could be really helpful to people to start just tracking themselves. And [00:26:00] so that's a, that's a recommendation that I make to everybody. It takes like 10, 15 extra minutes. But you start to really, um, habitualize that part of your work that will, I think, just help tremendously in the long run.

And then

Julie Harris Oliver: you can defend your choices

MyKhanh Shelton: also. Exactly. Exactly. And I, I think it gives credibility to the efforts that you're making, the credibility of the efforts that the company's making. If you're part of the company and the mission is, To increase diversity and to be more equitable and inclusive, like those are the receipts that you timewise

have different expectations. There are some people are just like, oh my gosh, why isn't this solved already? Why aren't you just immediately hiring all these people and you know, then I'm not gonna trust you if you don't. And then there are other people who are like, is gonna take, we need to build the capacity, we need to [00:27:00] build the whatever IT skill we build.

Talent pool. And that just takes a long time. And there's, you know, really I can understand why there would be so little trust between the two as to, you know, whether or not you're putting any meaningful effort behind it. And so if you do things that show people, show yourself that you are being disciplined about the work, I think it's gonna help with the communication and the trust building across different groups as well.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then let's pull back just one step to look at data, cuz something I found really interesting is a company might say, we have 50% women and people of color in this company. But then you drill down one notch and you find out and they are all at entry level roles and then drop off as, as you go up the ladder.

Can you talk about that piece

MyKhanh Shelton: of it? Yeah. I mean, being really smart about how you use and collect data will. Really require you to disaggregate a lot, right? Cause in your example, right, the 50%, but then everybody's at, at the bottom [00:28:00] and then you have no idea where people are dropping off. Right? Or you have no idea where the problems are, then it becomes really inefficient to solve that problem.

Or some people think

Julie Harris Oliver: they're done cuz you get that first big data and you're like, we're great,

MyKhanh Shelton: we're fine. Yeah, exactly. So, uh, you know, I'll give you an example of this. Uh, this one project I worked on. Was coming into a business that really, really wanted to retain and grow their, uh, women executives. And their assumption, I think, based on a few anecdotes was that women were leaving after.

Or not coming back from maternity leave. Right? They were going out on maternity leave, maybe coming back for a little bit, but then ultimately leaving because it was too hard with a newborn. So, well,

Julie Harris Oliver: this is why you can't let women in the workforce really. Cause they have babies and they leave. Exactly.

Men don't have children, so

MyKhanh Shelton: that Exactly right. Carry on. So, so, so many, so many, so many assumptions there. So this, um, so. The solution [00:29:00] here, right, by really well-intentioned executives was to say, you know what? We're really going increase the support for new moms, in this case, not even new parents, but new moms, right?

We're gonna increase the support. We're gonna really focus on reentry after maternity leave. And I mean, all great things, all really useful things. And in a world of infinite resources, I think I'd say great, keep doing it. But if your goal is to retain and advance women executives, When I looked at the data I saw that wasn't the drop off point.

That is not where they were losing their executives. Where they were losing their executives was something like 10 years after they came back from leave. So that, so that's what the data showed. And so as we, that's a whole different question. Yeah. So then we went in and we interviewed women who were like at that point in time in their lives.

And what we were seeing is they were starting to have more responsibilities for school, more responsibilities driving. It wasn't like you could just drop. The kid off at the, you know, childcare center. You [00:30:00] know, there were more pressures at that point in time. So we're like, oh my gosh, wait. This is a whole different set of problems that we need to solve for.

I mean, really deeply entrenched problems about work volume, um, schedules and a lot of big things that we going need to unpack. But in the very short term, we could take some really quick immediate steps to one, let people know we're understanding their problems and understanding the challenges, and we.

Really quick things like we got a corporate account for hops, skip drive, so that I loved hops, skip drive. It's for people who, dunno, it's like for kids, right? Uber for kids. Yeah. There are like really short term fixes that we could do. Just say, okay, wait, now we understand we're, we're understanding what this problem is.

We're understanding that the responsibilities of home care and childcare are very different. And for many reasons, we're seeing in our workforce that that's where people, women are being driven out and that's where people are, women are leaving the [00:31:00] workforce. So, you know, again, in a, with infinite resources and the company that says, we're gonna solve both those problems, that's great.

That's all the better. If your goal to retain you are putting your resources in the wrong place. We were not solving that problem, and we could not have seen that without data because anecdotally, people love talking about the newborns people.

And cuz

Julie Harris Oliver: there's a lot of data around women after they have babies, like the actual data is, they come back more focused, do more work, do better work. But the perceptions of them drops so precipitously that now they can barely function is the assumption about them. So of course they would make those assumptions when when the data looks

MyKhanh Shelton: like that.

Yeah. You have to see, you have to understand that data and then you have to see. How it shows up in your own company, right? Cause there are gonna be different ways that issues show up in your particular work environment. And so you need to understand both those. And the thing

Julie Harris Oliver: that really gets me that I don't know if [00:32:00] corporations can fix, is the assumption and reality that 80% of those home childcare, all of that, all of those duties still fall on women, even though women and men can have very equal careers.

And I don't know how we fix that part in

MyKhanh Shelton: a corporation. Oh, there's a lot corporations can do to contribute to this. And there's actually a Tell me. Yeah. Well, there's a book that I'll, I'll book that I just read called. It's Richard Reeves, um, and he did a lot of research about, you know, that disproportionate responsibility on women for home care and childcare.

And in his book. His thesis though is that that has a very negative effect on men and a large part of the reason that boys and men in this country are struggling with addiction, with mental health, with unemployment or underemployment, has a lot to do with the same issues that plague women. So none of us are thriving [00:33:00] in this situation where all the responsibility or a large part of the responsibility fall on women and where the cultural norms are that women take care of, of the family.

Cause when you know there's something like layoff and, and men are unemployed, if that was their whole identity and they are not expected to be the ones caring for the family or caring for children, that throws their whole identity and their whole sense of wealth. I'm sorry. Well, wealth and worth, you know, out the door.

And so, you know, in his hypothesis, all of this really is part of the reason we're seeing boys and men struggle so much. I think that book research he collects in that book is really helpful for us to understand and open up the conversation to more people about gender equity and why all these things.

Are important not just for women and not just for people of color, but for CI white men who are also struggling under these systems.

Julie Harris Oliver: So in conclusion, feminism

MyKhanh Shelton: is good for [00:34:00] everybody. Yes, exactly. So then on a real

Julie Harris Oliver: personal level, you talked a little bit about how you meet people and how you approach people and.

I think it's so important to meet people where they are mm-hmm. And bring them along to where you want them to be. And I've actually witnessed you do that beautifully and miraculously. But I would love, I would love to hear you talk about how you do it, because I, I've seen it from the outside where I've seen the beginning and seen the results, but I haven't seen the spit by step.

No. What is your, what is your secret sauce? How you, how you do that? Oh

MyKhanh Shelton: gosh. Okay. I don't know that I have secret sauce, but I do have a whole history of failed attempts. I, I, I used to have, you know, kinda that youthful enthusiasm and urgency that launched me into, you know, so many conversations, so many relationships, demanding of people that they see the world the way I do, the man that I see, right?[00:35:00]

All the things. And you know, I learned pretty early on that. That's not how people work. You can't just tell them how to think. You can't just, you know, drag them along and demand immediate change even from people who wanna change. So, you know, I think maybe one of the most formative experiences I had in this was when my brother came out the closet and he.

Told my family, called a family meeting and shared with us in a really, really, you know, emotionally wr way. He was very scared of how we would respond, really how my parents would respond to him being gay. And you know, my dad stepped up immediately and he was like, we love you. We love you, period. And my mom just starts crying.

She was like, oh my gosh, all it's gonna be so hard. It's gonna be so hard for you. All the things like, oh, you're gonna get bullied, [00:36:00] you're gonna get sick, you're gonna get aids. Like, you know, it's just like, oh, all sorts of dramatic fear and everything else. And I was like, ok. Mom, you gotta get over it. Like this is, this is calm down.

Right? Come on. You gotta shake those fears. You gotta, we gotta support, we gotta support my brother like,

So, surprise, surprise, uh, that did not work. She was, you can scold her into it. I scold into it, said.

You know, don't worry, but it'll be our

Julie Harris Oliver: private shame. Exactly. Exactly.

MyKhanh Shelton: And I was so impatient. I like, no, none of that is acceptable. Everybody all. [00:37:00] It just, it made it just harder and harder for to have these conversations with my mom, and it was my brother who, you know, I mean, he was outta,

we get comfortable with even saying this out loud. Can we give mom a few minutes? And he showed such grace and I really, I really took that to heart and I really understood that he had the long game and he was like, we're gonna bring along. And then it didn't take as long as I fear, it took a little more gentleness than I was willing to approach it at the outset.

And, you know, I took a lot of that into my work as a lawyer. I took a lot of that into my work with executives now, and I think that gentle pressure is, uh, mu much more effective than, um, [00:38:00] hostile demands, which is, you know, how I started in my twenties. That is the

Julie Harris Oliver: instinct. You just wanna parrot these people into, into doing the right thing.

Exactly. I think it's right. You have to plant a seed and let it, let it germinate a bit. I mean, I remember one thing specifically that I, I had heard over and over and over again. I thought, oh yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense. Until a person said the thing in a different way and it, then it hit me and I was like, oh my God.

I did not understand. And it, it took me a year to like take in a point and I was like, oh, oh, sometime. Yeah, sometimes it takes a minute to really get it. Get

MyKhanh Shelton: it. Yeah. I'll, I'll plug another book here that. Really helpful on this topic. Oh, the other 50% book club? Yes. Yes. It's um, it's a book called The Persuaders by a.

And he uses case studies to show how people work to talk across difference and to bring people along and to earn [00:39:00] collaboration. And it's really, really powerful in the ways that he's able, he collects the stories of people who have been doing this work really effectively. So I highly recommend that book.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Love that. We'll put it on the list. Yeah. Okay. Now, considering here we are now in 2023, and I think the fire of 2020 is not here in 2023, and it feels like we're feels, see obviously we are coming into a bit of a backlash. How? How do you think we move through that and keep moving forward in the face of, hasn't this all gone a bit too far?

MyKhanh Shelton: You know, thankfully I hear from more people interest, curiosity in learning, and I hear more openness to conversation than I hear people saying, has this gone too far? So that gives me a lot of hope. I think that realizing that we, and I'll say like the collective [00:40:00] we, those of us who were educated in the American school system, uh, I was, I went to public school and um, had a very conventional education and that education really lacked a, a focus.

On social emotional learning, and it really lacked a focus on perspective taking from many different perspectives, and it was a very singular view of history. So I became involved with an organization called Facing History in Ourselves that seeks to bring a more nuanced and complicated view of history into the classroom, into high schools.

And middle schools. And I got involved around the time I moved into DEI because even as a lawyer I saw that, you know, so many executives that I was working with, they were getting themselves into trouble and they were really struggling in their leadership roles, uh, [00:41:00] leading diverse teams because, They just very simply did not have an understanding of the context that other people were experiencing.

And I'll, I'll give you like just a, an example of myself. I'll, that, that I'll use that. You know, I was born in Vietnam. My whole family was born in Vietnam. Um, and we immigrated to the United States. So when people asked us like, where are you from? There was no baggage to us because I was like, oh, we're from Vietnam.

Immigrated here. But then as I learned the history of, you know, Asian Americans and the history generations of Asian people who.

Treated as perpetual foreigners. I understood that It came with a lot of baggage to, in a very different way. When you asked the question, where are you from? That's not anything that I don, I don't think I would've or intuited on my own needed to understand, [00:42:00] understand American history of that was taught in school.

And so I saw that with executives. I kept thinking, gosh, if people understood, if the executives understood. You know, the history of black and white relations in America, it wouldn't be so quick to be flip about, you know, race relations, right? Why is not

retro adults? Right. We, people didn't understand that and so, yeah. And

Julie Harris Oliver: hearkening back to what Dr. Megan Burke was talking about, that if you're talking at executives at a certain level, we're all of a certain age that were brought up with colorblind racism, so Of course.

MyKhanh Shelton: Exactly. This is new. So then when I, I learned about Facing History that brings this curriculum and professional development to teachers so that they can teach.

In these increasingly diverse classrooms, in much more nuanced ways, fuller, richer, you know, views of history and, [00:43:00] and really not what to think, but how to think. I, that's the solution that that is going be. I know every generation thinks they're gonna be the ones that like fixes all the things, but, and we keep the things this time, really time, this time with Facing History and the curriculum of the approach, uh, to pedagogy.

I don't, I, I think most of us were, were denied. Um, I think that, that, that is going be, you know, a game changer. The high school students of today are gonna be the leaders

studios industry. And they will have a much more developed sense of empathy and identity and history and context critical.

Really, really change things. And

Julie Harris Oliver: how, I imagine there is some challenge and obstacles considering the current political climate [00:44:00] and how some school districts are outlawing all of that. Mm-hmm. How, how is that organization kind of getting in there, in the face of our political climate?

MyKhanh Shelton: Um, really, really carefully.

Again, it's very focused on helping students learn how to think, not what to think. It's like how to critical. Not a particular viewpoint like, and certainly, you know, not partisan at this point. There are so many topic, every topic seems like it can be. So I.

But it definitely takes a non-political nonpartisan approach to supporting teachers. A lot of this is the teachers who are teaching our kids. They weren't taught these things, and so now they're in the classroom leading classrooms without the support, without the professional development that I think is necessary.

I mean, you think about the topics. [00:45:00] The teachers have to teach on any day. It's a different topic. Gonna talk about

whether, whether. Where are you gonna help? So, you know, I'm really, really proud to board of organization, tremendous work support teachers, support school districts.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wonderful. I'm gonna ask you the same thing I asked Dr. Banks, what gives you hope? Oh gosh.

MyKhanh Shelton: So, so many things. What gives me hope is that despite all the challenges headwinds there, So many people who are interested in change, who can imagine a more, just an equitable future. We see it in Tennessee, we see it, you know, in all the [00:46:00] activism that is happening around the world.

I think that those are, those are people who are, who are putting their themselves on the line for change. And they give me hope and they give me inspiration. Um, not to

Julie Harris Oliver: brag, but my stepchildren went to the Capitol in Nashville.

MyKhanh Shelton: Oh. Just saying. So proud. So proud. You should be, I mean, so proud that like, just, that gives me a lot of hope, like seeing what's happening there.

I mean, it is remarkable. It's, they're very young people. Those are all very young people standing up and making a change and making a difference. It's incredible. They are not having it. Exactly. And so, you know, for those of us who, you know, think that there's any luxury to like opt outta the conversation at this point, I think that there is just not even if people say, you know, have we gone too far?

And sg and too much D can call it whatever you wanna call it. But there are [00:47:00] gonna be a different set of expectations on leaders. And if leaders are gonna lead effectively, if leaders are anybody follow,

educated, competent in.

Systems, hiring systems, pay systems, promotion systems, all of those along with them. Cause I think everyone's getting the memo that, uh, you and Kira, Dr. Banks talked about. You can't your way out. It, you gotta make the change. It's going be meaningful and it's gonna stick. There's no going back. Exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: I hope there's no going back.

Yeah. Where can people find you? Well, right now

MyKhanh Shelton: I am hard at work getting ready to co-chair the Facing History Benefit Dinner. That's happening May 24th in la So people should find information about that Benefit Dinner [00:48:00] on, um, the Facing History website, and I'm on LinkedIn. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Can anybody go to that

MyKhanh Shelton: dinner?

Yes. We're particularly looking for corporate sponsors right now or any, any sponsorship, but. I think it's, it's a good sponsorship opportunity for companies cause it comes with a set of resources that companies can use for their own workforce.

Julie Harris Oliver: MyKhanh Shelton, thank you so much for doing the other 50%.

MyKhanh Shelton: Thank you Julie.

It was so fun. You've been listening

Julie Harris Oliver: to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. Thank you to MyKhanh Shelton for sharing her story and her expertise. Special thanks to Jay Rowe, Danny Rosner and Allison McQuaid for the music. You can find me and my work at julieharrisoliver.com and go check out the Catch or Break podcast, the insiders guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry.

I can finally tell you that coming in July, we have a very special season and it's the companion piece to the H B O Series, project Green Light. This season will document the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes, the parts [00:49:00] the show didn't show. By talking with several department heads, cast and producers.

It will launch July 13th along with the HBO O Series. So mark your calendars. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

EP 226: Dr. Meghan Burke

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] You're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. We are continuing our series of talking with experts who work in various aspects of diversity, equity, and inclusion across industries and in entertainment. Specifically today, I sat down with Dr. Meghan Burke. We talked about how white people can approach this work without getting hung up on feelings of shame and guilt and centering ourselves because none of that is particularly helpful.

Dr. Meghan Burke is a sociologist, an author of three books about contemporary racism and whiteness. Most recently, the book Colorblind Racism. She was an award-winning teacher scholar, diversity advocate and advisor. During her 15 years working as a professor at a small liberal arts college where for 10 years, she co-developed and directed an innovative program designed to equip white students with an understanding of equity, inclusion and intersectionality so that they could effectively work as partners in D E I efforts.

She [00:01:00] also traveled around the country offering keynote talks and workshops for communities looking to deepen their commitments to racial and social justice. Meghan left higher education in 2021 for a career in industry utilizing her social science research skills and her subject matter expertise to drive positive change for companies that serve the common good.

We talked about how it is to show up as a white person doing the work of dismantling racist systems. We talked about what is colorblind to actually mean and is that a perspective we should actually be using? A theme you'll hear repeatedly is it's not if and weather racism is showing up, but when and how.

That will all make sense. Soon here have a. Dr. Meghan Burke, welcome to the other 50%.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Me too.

Julie Harris Oliver: So first, tell me in your own words, kind of what it is that you do and what you focus on.

Dr. Meghan Burke: So, I am a scholar who studied the dynamics of contemporary racism, and I [00:02:00] paid special attention to the ways that, uh, how we learn to talk and think about race, how that.

Outcomes in concrete, social and political settings. So I studied kind of politically charged spaces on the left and the right, and then I began writing about how actually similar those dynamics can be, which tends to surprise a lot of people. Um, so I did that for about 15 years. Yeah. Yeah. So we can talk all about that.

I'm, I'm sure. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, uh, you know, like, like many people in recent years I have, I've left higher ed. Um, and in that time I worked in the d e I space for one of the world's biggest media companies for a while. Learned a lot, met fantastic people. Um, but now I'm very happily working, um, with the kind of qualitative researcher, half of my skillset in another sector of private industry.

So that's a little bit about my scholarly background and, and how I, how I come to have this conversation with you here today.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Now I also wanna know, um, you're a white lady. How did you come to this work? From that background?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah, yeah. I mean that's, [00:03:00] that's probably the more interesting story, right?

Um, that

Julie Harris Oliver: the people want to know. Exactly,

Dr. Meghan Burke: exactly. Well, I'll tell you that it, that it took a long time. In fact, um, it, it took too long. It really wasn't until graduate. And that's despite the fact that I was deeply socially, uh, invested in social justice, politically invested in social justice during college, I knew intellectually that racism was pervasive, but I, I didn't really see it.

I didn't really know it. I couldn't talk about it, and I wasn't really living with that awareness until I took a high quality course on, on race and racism. And honestly, when I did, I got really angry, which, which sounds like a white piece of thing to do, right? Um, I, I don't think that I was angry though at being confronted with the realities of my white privilege.

Um, but rather I was angry that I'd had like very decent, you know, public K-12 education. Public undergraduate education and still no one had really taught me right. Um, to understand our [00:04:00] history, to understand our present in this way. So, you know, I had actually come to graduate school in sociology to study something far more theoretical, which I promise we won't get into.

Um, but it's, you know, when I really learned to see the evidence yum for Racism's legacy and the ways that it's lived in the present moment, um, it really became my core passion and I really redialed all of my teaching and research plans to explore it. And of course, you can't do that with also, uh, exploring the other ways that it insects, uh, intersects with other forms of oppression more deeply.

Um, so the rest is sort of history.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Did you, like I grew up with free to be You and me. I, I always go back to that is, that was my, that was, that was my expectation of how the world was, right. Instead of, oh, that was, that was someone expressing how the world ought to be. Right?

Dr. Meghan Burke: I think that distinction between ideals and reality is where we get really, really tangled up when it comes to contemporary racism.

Um, and that's, that's the exact dynamic that I really stepped into [00:05:00] explore that I got so curious about as a scholar and as a teacher and loved engaging with, with students and other audiences around, um, did, you know, some consulting work, did some workshops, some keynotes around all of that. And I, and I think really kind of playing in that space and, and really helping us wade into that and navigate it.

You know, that's, that's where the hard stuff is, but that's where the good stuff is. So I

Julie Harris Oliver: think a lot of us, especially, um, our age, I think. We might be 10 years apart, but we're still thoroughly grownups. Right. So I, that's at least we, we present as grownups. Um, at least growing up in the seventies and the eighties mm-hmm.

Pervasively in the culture. There was, you know, united Colors of Benetton. There was a period where you had one person of every race and every commercial, like presenting kind of this world. And there was a lot of talk about, I don't see color or colorblind, like all of that. Turns out you wrote a whole book about that called colorblind racism.

Could you, can you talk about that? Like what, what does that actually mean? And then, and then what does it mean?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, great question. [00:06:00] And I th I think those cultural touchstones into it are, are a terrific route in, because just like we were talking about, I think it really reflects that distinction between those ideals.

Right. And, and the. So I tend to define colorblind racism as kind of the ways of, of talking and thinking about race that do a couple things. One is that they tend to affirm our belief in individualism, right? So it's all individual merit and you know, there's no barriers and, and everything's fine. Uh, all you have to do is work hard, have the right values, um, all of that kind of stuff.

But then it also tends to lean on, what I always emphasize are these often imagined cultural differe. Right. So if it's not the individualism stuff, it's these imagined cultural differences. And I say imagined cultural differences, not because there's no such thing as culture. Not because, you know, there aren't, uh, there aren't cultural differences between us.

But what I mean by that is that we give culture too much explanatory power, right? We think that culture really is the thing that makes some groups successful. Uh, [00:07:00] and that of course can also have its downsides, right? So as white folks, we either congratulate ourselves for being raised right, and having the right values without seeing any of the unfair advantages that we've been given, uh, in the economic, political and, and just about every system, you know, it can be really toxic for, for Asian Americans, right?

Who, uh, where we tend to have the model minority myth, right? That says that, uh, you know, It's the right values and, and all of that, you know, without really understanding the part, particular histories that have shaped that for some Asian American groups and very much not for, for many others, or we often use it to punish, right?

Uh, we sort of imagine that there are these cultural deficiencies among other groups and really tend to say, well, that that's why, right? That folks just didn't, don't, you know, it's the culture sort of getting in the way, right? So it is all of those kinds of things. And of course, you know, as I've said it all it does.

So without recognizing the many remaining barriers that still exist, God. And we've, I've

Julie Harris Oliver: heard people say, oh, we hired a black person once, but you [00:08:00] know, their culture, it was just really hard.

Dr. Meghan Burke: That's what you're talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Or well, you know, and I think we do that, especially when we look at kind of group patterns, right?

So we, I think that, that, the tricky thing is like we're, we can look around the world and most of us know that there's some kind of deep inequalities out there that, that there's, uh, deep inequities, that we have strongly disparate outcomes. You know, if you look at the, the wealth gap, right? Which continues to grow.

If you look at differences in educational attainment, if you look at, uh, medicine Yeah. Medicine, you know, who's able to, uh, earn promotions and, and rise, you know, in their careers, uh, get access to education. I mean, all of the things, right? And so it's not as though we don't. See those disparities, but colorblindness comes in as an ideological lens to help us explain them by explaining away race as a central, uh, and racism in particular, as a central way to explain and [00:09:00] understand how and why that happens.

Julie Harris Oliver: So when you hear someone talk about like, well, you're in America, everyone has equal opportunity, if you're not taking advantage of that, that that's your own failing. Right? Right. But obviously that's a not true and it's harmful. But maybe you can talk about how, how the colorblindness lens. Really causes harm.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. Well, you know, I, I'll, I'll draw on as others have done, um, you know, some of the work of, uh, sociologist Eduardo Oone Silva. So he wasn't the first to come up with this, but the way that he has popularized kind of these four major ways that we tend to hear and learn how to interpret and talk about the world around us come into play there.

So I think, you know, one of the ones that you're talking about there is, is what he calls abstract liberalism. Doesn't matter, not a term you need to know, but it really is kind of starting with our already existing belief in a fair system, right? And then we say, well, since we think that the system is fair, in part because.

It should be fair and we would like for it to be fair. And we've often been taught [00:10:00] that it's fair and it feels fair to white people. Well, exactly. We don't, we don't encounter the barriers. We're not tripping over the hurdles. Right. Um, we're not, we're not bumping into the walls. Um, you know, we look around and, and think, well, you know, my life seems like, you know, the result of my own hard work and, and my own values and my own choices.

That must be the way that it is for everyone, right? So we either kind of blame or credit individuals with their work or their talent on that basis, right? And that really ends up being one of the kind of the core tenants there.

Julie Harris Oliver: You know, Dr. Banks was on this podcast a couple weeks ago, and I know one of the things that she often says is, or she uses as an example.

You know, if you look at, uh, the wage gap and we know that women are paid less than men across the board, and if you decided to, we're gonna solve that problem, but we're never gonna look at gender. Right. But somehow you think it's gonna magically solve itself, right? That, that feels like, that feels like kind of the same thing.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, so I think sometimes another way to think about that is like, we sort of get the colorblindness as flawed. Maybe we know that this [00:11:00] stuff isn't, like, what would be the alternative? How might we think about it instead? And I, and I think the way that I might suggest is, is what we might call racial literacy, right?

Which is, it sounds really simple and it is, and yet we make it harder than it, than it needs to be because we often refuse to have these conversations socially and politically. And racial literacy would be the ability to, to analyze, to acknowledge, and to act around the ways that race does matter and our lives and opportunities, right?

So really being willing and able to, to accept and understand how race still matters and how racism, both its legacy from the past and its practices in the present, continue to shape outcomes.

Julie Harris Oliver: So if we're starting to. And it feels like 2020 really feels like the moment when the white people finally started to engage in a real way.

And I think there's so much fear around that for white people engaging in this and that. There's been a lot of, well,

did you

hear that? Yes. Clanking, yes. I'm ha I'm having solar panels put on my roof and so it's making a lot of noise [00:12:00] that we're trying to work around, but how, talk more about how we should be thinking.

Differently and kind of what I think white people have some fears around talking about this. So can you speak to that?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah, let, let's take the first one and, and then, you know, I really wanna hone in on the second one of course, as well, you know, um, so I think one of the ways that colorblindness really ends up perpetuating this system of inequality and racism is that it doesn't allow us to see racism as a system of advantage and disadvantage.

Right. Something beyond just, uh, so another core way that I think we're taught to think about racism is just the outcome of like, individual biases and prejudices, which we all have, but we don't even wanna admit that. And especially white folks are, are terrified of admitting that. Right. And, and we'll go there.

So what we get instead is, is just kind of like this toxic mix, right, of prejudice, which is real plus these unequal, unfair unearned levels of power that have been allocated to us based on our social identities. And central among them is race, right? [00:13:00] Colorblindness won't let us really see any of that. And so when we're not equipped to make this systems level analysis, again, we look at these disparate outcomes, be it household wealth, educational and professional attainment, the health of individuals in our communities, deadly interactions with the police and so much more, right?

Um, we see at most segregation, but we attribute that to cultural differences in individual choices. Or we tend to think that, you know, the racists are those bad people out there, right? They're different than all of us. We all, you know, I'm a good person. You're a good person. Everyone in my orbit is a good person, right?

And we either sort of blame those racists. Who, who, who we imagine to be so far away from

Julie Harris Oliver: us and who we imagine will just die out anytime now. Except we see in Virginia, what a year ago, right? That young people,

Dr. Meghan Burke: right. Being Nazis. Right. And, and you know, so many generations have said, have just promised right.

That, that once their grandparents are, are out of the, out of the picture, you know, uh, much love to all the grandparents out there, [00:14:00] right. But, but you know, we've always kind of held that, that cultural trope and it unfortunately doesn't end up being the case. Right. And again, that's why we have to go back to the systems level analysis rather than just imagining that we just have to wait somehow for bias to either die out or fade out or, or any of those things.

And what that lets us do is not hold ourselves and one another accountable, right? Or to work collectively to create more fair, equitable and inclusive systems and environments, right? So, so colorblindness really doesn't let us see or name the very real problems in our social economic political.

Ideological systems. Right. Really this is an ideological practice, and so of course, we're not equipped to deal with it. Right. Um, I sometimes say like, we, we'd never go to a medical doctor, right. And be okay with like, well, we don't really need to do an exam. Um, we don't need any sophisticated tools to test or diagnose any kind of like illness or disease.

You know, we, you know, we don't really wanna try any meaningful interventions, right. Uh, we're, we're just, we're just gonna hope that you get [00:15:00] better, uh, and, and ignore it and it'll go away. Right. But we do that very thing all the time with racism, which, which as we know can be just as deadly.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. And as we're preparing for this, I wa I was also thinking about.

The way, you know, the way we talk about it at large in society, you know when, when politicians are trying to sound very well-meaning, they'll talk about black populations always in reference to the inner city, right? And the ghetto. And you know, the assumption is that all black people are on welfare and poor, you know, and there's just the lumping of races.

Everyone coming over the border is Mexican and illegal. Like here, let me just say all the horrible things out loud, and then people can just snip 'em and send 'em around the world. Get me in a lot of trouble. But, This is what we do. Right,

Dr. Meghan Burke: right. Right. Yeah. I mean, and that, that's really, that, that kind of, um, second category, right?

The, those, when I say that we tend to give culture too much explanatory power, right? We think that it's really just something about right, the way that folks are learning to live in those environments or the, the behaviors or the attitudes or any of those things that, that [00:16:00] come from those environments instead of seeing the very real, structural, political, economic barriers.

For some, and boosters for others, right? If we're talking about whiteness and other forms of privilege that have created those very condition, right? So it's, it's our laws, it's our policies, it's the legacy of political choices that we've made in the past. It's the way that we are actively designing and supporting an economic system that, that still trades on, uh, some of those privileges, you know, even from, from the Jim Crow era, right?

So another thing, you know, and the part of what I think makes this fascinating and important to discuss is, you know, folks will also say, You know, we, we had, we had the whole Freedom Movement in the 1960s, right? Didn't we have all these successes and, and civil rights laws? We have the Fair Housing Act now, right?

We, uh, you know, we've, we've worked on and continue to work on voting rights and, and all these sorts of things. Like, didn't we clean all this up? And the answer is, we've begun to, but there are still both the legacies, right? As we look at intergenerational, uh, wealth and opportunity and all of these [00:17:00] other things that, that still continue to shape, uh, the opportunity structures and the realities that we live with today.

I think a good example

Julie Harris Oliver: of that, that I've, I've recently seen going around the internet as we're talking about, you know, I'm steeped in college admissions right now. All my kids are that age, so we're going through a lot of that. And so I, I see a lot of that stuff right now and there's a lot of talk. You know, getting rid of affirmative action or that's not necessary or that's not fair and no talk at all about okay then let's get rid of legacy and your father buys a wing and so you get a spot like all of that legacy privilege to get into college that people don't see as affirmative action, but they only wanna take it away for the people who've been disadvantaged forever and not to the people who've been advantaged.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. And that example is, is is just so stark because if you really look at the set of policies that we have come to call affirmative action policies, really what they are is an effort to guarantee equal opportunity. Right? Right. So what we're actually saying is that we don't want equal opportunity, right?

We don't want, uh, there to be some basic level of. [00:18:00] Um, in the system unless it shows up in particular ways. And so that also gets into some of the ways that the, so much of the discourse around race and racism gets both kind of coded and loaded with unfair assumptions, clear inaccuracies, and then all of the racial politics and strife that we bring to this with that lack of analysis of how these structures are really built and how these inequities persist.

I mean, we will absolutely go backward if we do eradicate, uh, affirmative action policies. And in fact, that's already begun to happen as more and more schools and and workplaces have, have been nervous about this. I mean, quotas have been illegal, you know, since the 1970s. Um, and most folks don't know that.

Most folks think, well, affirmative action means they've just got some spots saved for X, Y, and Z and now your kids don't get a fair chance. Right? We're really what affirmative action policies have done is try to remove some of those barriers to make sure that folks do have a fair chance and we wanna go even further backward.

It's, it's, it's all just such a mess.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Cause it, [00:19:00] and it's more of those, and I, I talk about myths all the time. That things that people say that just aren't true, you know, and they're not nuanced and they're not backed up with anything. And one of those is the assumption that to have affirmative action or to to do things in that manner is means you're bringing people who are unqualified.

Right? Right. Like they equal each other.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Right. Where, you know, what school, what workplace, what institution of any kind would ever want that, right? They, they care. You know, I, you know, I used to talk to students about this all the time cuz it was always very top of mind for them, whether it came to scholarship funding and missions, you know, but, but schools are very, very sensitive to the reputations and their rankings.

You know, workforces want to hire the best talent and they, you know, they're gonna elbow their way, uh, into, you know, around any barriers that prevent them from doing so. It's just, it's not really in anyone's interest. And yet again, because we have such ongoing bias, right? Such pervasive racism, we still make such unfair assumptions about one another, right?

That that's really what that tends to reveal.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So then if we're [00:20:00] starting to look at systems and how systemic racism is operating as opposed to there are terrible racist people in the world, how do we start shifting that lens and how do you start seeing the, the systems of it all?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah, I mean, and I think on a certain level it really is about kind of moving from that individual to that systems level analysis.

But I think for, for, for white folks like us in particular, right? That can be really tricky because we also kind of have to be willing to make a little bit of a mind shift, right? Um, so I think that, that we have to get out of our own way, um, as white folks, but we also have to be willing to let the institutions in which we've had disproportionate levels of power for far too long, be willing to adapt and change.

So let's start here and keep it really basic. You know, for many white people, and I, I'd be curious if you see this in your world too, Julie, many folks would say that being labeled racist is among their worst fears. Oh God. Yeah. It's terrible that just like the, the, the crippling anxiety around somehow being found out or discovered or labeled or named [00:21:00] racist raises incredible anxieties and fears for many, many white folks.

And when we sit that next to right, often the biggest fear for many people of color, Are things like not surviving an interaction with the police, or not getting access to adequate medical care, or having to continually scrape your way up a greased ladder while maintaining both sanity and grace while people are kicking you and blaming you and shaming you.

Right? I mean, it really becomes so absurd when we look at those things right next to each other. And so I know it's far easier said than done, but my challenge here is always to invite and encourage us all to try to get away from the anxiety producing question of if or whether racism is somehow at play, either in our hearts and minds, or in our workplaces and communities, in our institutions, right?

Or instead to have the maturity and the willingness to ask how and in what ways, right? So moving [00:22:00] from, am I racist to how and in what ways am I perpetuating racism? Is this institution perpetuating racism? Gosh, I hope we're not. Instead saying how and in what ways are we still not getting it right? How and in what ways are we perpetuating racial inequality and racial inequities and a lack of inclusion in this space?

It sounds scarier because the second way of framing it, the how in what ways makes the assumption that it's going on, right? And the anxiety question of if and whether, oh my gosh, I hope not. All that wants to do is absolve us and it's just not gonna be the case. Right? If we're willing to say how and in what ways is racial inequality, racial inequities, lack of inclusive practices playing out in the spaces that I'm in, then we can get to a space where we can actually say, oh, there's this thing that's going on here, and then we have something to work in.

So, you know, then we can step in and do a careful kind of study and analysis. Right. We can use the expertise of [00:23:00] social scientists. We can importantly trust the leadership and insights of marginalized folks who are the ones with the real expertise of living with those barriers and often experiencing things that folks with power and privilege maybe can't see often, don't see, really don't wanna see.

And then I also think that that brings a humil. And a willingness to roll up our sleeves and do the slow hard work of making change to our policies, practices, and ways of being with one another. It's like that old saying, the the only way through it really is through it. Right? Yeah. But colorblind wants to say there's no need.

It's already done. Don't worry. You're one of the good ones. Don't worry. We, we didn't diagnose the racism in you. Right. Moving on. Right. And it's just, it's just never gonna be the case.

Julie Harris Oliver: No. Cause I think the answer to if or whether is of course there is right now. Let, let's figure out what it is and look at it.

Right. Like of of course it is. I don't, and, and the fact that we still have to come up with evidence for it. And there couple different ways that, that I like to, um, [00:24:00] just kind of help put this in. Sometimes people can only see things from their particular mm-hmm. Perspective. Mm-hmm. So lemme just offer, it's like, That thing you said of, you know, we're white people are worried about being called racist, people of color, basically worried about dying at our hands.

Right. Right. Um, it's like women's worst fear is being killed by a man and a man's worst, worst fears that a woman will laugh at him. Right. I mean, it's, it's the same kind of like such disproportionate fear. Like, what are we talking about? Right. And the other thing is, you know, when, like, if you don't feel particularly well and you wanna take it easy for a day, you wanna take a sick day, or when you were a kid, you wanna stay home from school.

And, and if someone in your family like didn't really believe that, you didn't feel that well and so then you had to feel even worse. Mm-hmm. And really dig into the cold or the headache or the whatever it was to really kind of prove it. I think we have been denying racism so long and force people to keep talking about it and keep explaining it and keep providing the evidence.

When I, if we could just get to a point of, of, of course, of [00:25:00] course it's there. Now let's talk about what are we gonna do about it. What are some of the ways we go about it? I know data is one way. I know listening to people's lived experience is another way. Can you kind of talk about how, how we break that down?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. I mean, I, I hate to keep it that simple, but I think, I think those are two great starting points. I think for folks who aren't already embedded in projects and efforts to try to understand that, that's a great place to start. You know, listen to trust and believe, you know, those who are, are getting really tired of continually pointing at problems that tend to be persistent, pervasive, um, that are exhausting, that are real.

So instead of just, you know, trying to be defensive or to explain it away as all of those tropes of colorblindness often invite us to do, to, to be willing to hear it and to hold it and to say, Let's look together more closely at that. Let's think about how we can really carefully pay attention to those dynamics.

And let's think about the specific things, whatever that thing might be, that might give us something to try [00:26:00] to change that. And then we try together to change that. And if that doesn't work, we look at it more closely again and we try something else. I mean, it's really about kind of bringing, um, a scientific experimenter's sort of mindset to it.

But I think it has to be grounded in that trust, right? Both of those who have been telling us and telling us, and telling us that these problems are real, that they are systemic, uh, that they're pervasive, that they are long standing, right? So that's one road. In another road in is, is, you know, these things can often be studied.

Right. And not just sort of attitudes and beliefs. Yeah. But practices, um, barriers, you know, looking at folks who, who are, are hitting the glass ceiling and, and saying, gosh, we noticed that we never really see folks other than of one demographic who end up in these leadership positions. Something must be going on there.

Right. We have the evidence. In many cases, we just often are unwilling to look at it or name it, or to really roll up our sleeves and dig in and figure out how to work on it together. [00:27:00] Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: So for example, I heard this statistic about just film production in Los Angeles. The, the demographics in Los Angeles, about 20% of the population are white men.

The population of film production happening in Los Angeles is 80%

Dr. Meghan Burke: white men. Somehow, I guess that was gonna be a full inversion, and there it is, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: All inversion. Yeah. So, and, and is it because the white men are somehow more skilled than the only people who can do film production? I mean, it's laughable, right?

So, so then you gotta look at what is, what is actually the problem and to look at the data that way is, I think makes it really clear for people. I mean, you can't, you can't argue with that, and you can't really justify it either, right? So then you, you really have to

Dr. Meghan Burke: do something about it, right? Because I would imagine that justifications, that at least attempt to, uh, explain it away, are often also gonna reveal some of those, those tickets.

Well, th these are the folks who have the experience, well, okay, how did they get that experience? Why did they Exactly right. Uh, what are, well, but this, this is what we have, you know, [00:28:00] seen in the past. So it's what folks are imagining for themselves. Well then let's create, you know, other opportunities so that we have more diversity and representation and folks can see more opportunities that they maybe hadn't seen before.

I mean, and it's probably all of those things and 10 others, right? Um, yeah. But you know, it's, I think that soften, we imagine, That somehow fighting racism. And it is, it's incredibly challenging. I, you know, if it were easy, I would hope that we would've all gotten together and fixed it already. Right. But I have often wondered if one of the barriers isn't that we imagine it to just be this nebulous thing out there, rather than showing up in really concrete, specific spaces.

We're very ordinary things are going on that when we kind of zoom in and look at some of those things, just like the example that you named, well, gosh, there's all sorts of things that are available to try there, and there's all sorts of ways to get better information about what is and isn't happening.

Right. But we think instead we have to go fight the racism, right? What that looks like, right, is changing opportunities. What that looks like is changing systems, changing practices, changing [00:29:00] laws, changing policies. I mean, some of those things are very hard to do, but it's not as, as sort of, those all happen in very concrete, actually, often very ordinary ways.

It's

Julie Harris Oliver: not as hard as people think. I, I will say it over and over and over again. It is not that hard. I think I've said this before, maybe even on this podcast, but I know a lot of times white people might hear this and once they see it, think, oh my God, you want me to solve racism on my production? How on earth am I going to do that?

That's too big. Now that I realize that it's big. It's big, but it's the, the fix is. Not that hard. It's a million

Dr. Meghan Burke: baby steps. It's, that's exactly it. There's all these ordinary things that we do to make a production. And so how do we look at those things? How do we look at those steps along the way and how do we think about what's really fair, what's really equitable?

Right? What's really inclusive? What really is gonna be supportive to folks with all different identities and needs, who bring a diverse set of talents and skills to these spaces and who deserve to, to show up and, and [00:30:00] allow them to be actualized, right? So it's, it's exactly that. It's, it's a lot of little tiny steps and maybe you as an individual can't be the one to change all of them, but if you can cha everybody grab a handful.

This is a team sport. Uh, this is a team effort, right? If we all work on the thing where we feel like we have, um, or where we do have, um, and I think that's maybe half the battle too, is understanding that, that we do have more power than I think we realize then work on it together.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's a point worth saying again, cuz I've, I've talked to a lot of very powerful people who think it's the person above them who actually has the power.

And we have to remind everybody, everybody has the power to do something. You don't have to wait for the chairman of a studio to make a decision. Everyone has decision making power as you go along. That's exactly right. Let's talk about, and I don't know if either one of us has the answers here, but along the lines of colorblind, there's also been a lot of talk about colorblind casting, and there's been an [00:31:00] effort to, real quick, let's get representation on screen.

So sometimes there are roles that were just written probably with the assumption that it was gonna be a white man, and then someone says, wait, let's cast an Asian woman in that role. Or Let's cast a black woman in that role and. People get cast and just put into these shows, but then there's not a rewrite for their backstory that happens, so they just end up playing a role that was probably written for a white guy without adding anything to it.

And I know this isn't necessarily your area of expertise, but do you have any thoughts?

Dr. Meghan Burke: I do, I do. You know, and I've, I've done some consulting and in some art spaces in the past and, and you know, it is tricky, right? Because it, it, it's a lot like colorblindness as a whole, right? We, we take this ideal, right?

That one's. Shouldn't matter in shaping opportunities or in, you know, performance or any of those kinds of things. And then we act like, you know, that ideals already in place and then we sigh with relief. Well, we didn't do the [00:32:00] thing of perpetuating X, Y, or Z when actually in that very process. That's how we have helped really to, to create it.

Right. I mean, it seems like what you describe is, you know, asking a lot, not just of, of the actor to pretend that they're representing something that they are not, but to, you know, essentially check, check their lived experience at the door and not bring some of those nuances and realities into the role and into the art, but also of audiences and content creators, right.

To do such kind of like reinterpretations that, that seem like, I don't know it. Changes the process, right? It, it'd be like me walking in and saying, oh, everybody don't worry. Uh, please don't regard me as white today. I've decided not to be white today. Um, could, could you, could you just, you know, ignore the fact that I'm, I'm, you know, a cisgender white woman and her early forwarders, that that's just not who I am today.

Let, but, you know, business as usual, right? Like, how would I know? I dunno.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's like I'm gonna come in and play the part of the white man, right? Like, that's [00:33:00] basically what we're asking of people in a really crass way. Um, you know, there's a director who's a friend of mine, uh, that I'm gonna talk about.

Justin Emeka and he's, he's moving into film and television directing right now, but he's been a theater director and he often will take Shakespeare and cast it with black actors and also unapologetically bring in all the culture. With it, which absolutely transforms the peace, right? He's not casting black people to do Shakespeare in the way that white people in Elizabethan England did Shakespeare.

Right? Right. And it's an incredible reinterpretation and brings so much more to it, right? And

Dr. Meghan Burke: I think that's so much more respectful of all of the artists involved. Um, I think that that's so much more respectful of the audience to, to be rightly challenged, to think about, wow, how do I react to this performance differently based on, you know, the way that, that we do show up as embodied, right?

Um, you know, race, race is a [00:34:00] category that we have created to justify systems of oppression. It's a socially constructed category, but boy, have we made it real, right? And boy does it shape the way that, that all of our interactions take place, whether we're. Understanding that, seeing it, willing to name it or not.

Right? So like, yeah, let's, let's actually go there together and let's think those, let's have those reactions together and have those conversations. That to me seems like a, a very wise approach to, you know, doing more inclusive casting, especially for these performances that, that are, are in the cannon.

Right. And, and that folks may not want to leave behind, but yeah. How much more Interesting. Exactly. Exactly. Right. And how much more fair.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Okay. Now, besides just inviting people in to like majority white spaces, like, okay, come on in. How should we think about engaging more broadly?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah, I mean, I think some of that gets into that structural analysis, right?

So if, if we take that pretty literally, right, and [00:35:00] invite folks into, uh, majority white space, it's likely to be a built environment. Um, where, uh, where those, those, that literal structure probably, uh, it's at least worth interrogating whether or not that is a fair, equitable and inclusive one. But I think, I think on another level, you know, there's another kind of common thing that I see sometimes coming up in these spaces and these conversations, especially as folks are really trying to work on, on equity and inclusion, and it sounds kind of counterintuitive, but we really have to get out of this welcoming mindset.

Right, right. You know, I, it, it sounds unkind, uh, but it's, it's the same reason I sort of cringe when people, again, you know, usually these are, are incredibly well-meaning folks. And that again, brings us back to this distinction between impact, uh, and intention. Um, but folks wanna announce like a, a welcoming racial climate.

You know, welcoming makes sense for people who are. To a community or an institution. So anytime, uh, and I'm grateful to have this experience. Anytime I've [00:36:00] started, you know, a new job or moved into a new neighborhood, I've, I've been welcomed, right? Because I'm new, you know, even the, the Welcoming Cities initiatives, right?

For immigrant communities, you know, and we're in, folks usually are making a, an agreement, you know, not, not to call, uh, immigration and Customs Enforcement on undocumented folks, right? That tracks all good there. But really outside of that context, and especially when it's used in the context of d e I work as it so often is it actually ends up being really flawed.

So after all, like I, we tend to welcome people to places that belong to us, right? Right. So, like Julie, I would warmly welcome you into my. Into my office, into my family or, or whatever it might be.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, as long as I'm a good guest. Well, that plays by your rules.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Well, exactly right. And this is a house that is not built for you and it's, it's a place where you may not at all feel at home, but I'm welcoming you.

Right. But on, on an even more fundamental level, it really is positioning some folks kind of inherently as outsiders, [00:37:00] right? So it's another kind of sneaky way that it ends up being either white centric or other. Dominant identity centered, right? Oh, we, we welcome women into this, you know, boys club. Um, as long as Right.

Come, come golf with us. Exactly. Exactly. You know, it, it reminds me too, I don't know if, if, uh, and again, it's always well-meaning, always well-meaning, but you know, anytime you've heard, oh, well, you're more than welcome to, you know, join us at blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, usually when you haven't actually been invited, it's usually right when someone like, was like, am I, oh, you're around.

Oh, you're more than welcome. Right. Um, you know, it ends up working a lot like, like a tolerance framework that I rightly has largely been abandoned in those spaces. Right. I mean, Who, who wants to be tolerated? I'd rather be loved and respected and, right. Yeah. Treated. Treated as a peer. And I, and I think that's exactly it, right?

We have to work on who really belongs, who's really invited, who can be a real partner [00:38:00] instead of a patron. And that again, involves changing systems as well as our own internalized false white SuPM. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: That all makes so much sense. And I'm thinking about it in the context of production, which has been, you know, traditionally this very white, very male mm-hmm.

System and environment. And part of the challenge is literally getting everyone in. Mm-hmm. Right? And changing, changing the demographic of what that looks like, and creating a super inclusive culture where everybody can show up who they are and everyone doesn't have to walk in the room and act like a white guy.

Not that there's anything wrong with white guys, but has to take on that identity in order to be included.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Right. To play by those rules, to play by those cultural rules, to, to know those cultural scripts, to, to feel like they're really gonna belong in that space. Right. And, and I think part of it, and again, this takes work, it takes time, it takes willingness, but really this is, this is partly why working on equity.

Right, to make sure [00:39:00] that the systems themselves are fair and are providing the right kind of the right kind of tools to help us decide who gets to enter that room, right? Um, that is likely to make it more diverse. And that's also why we work on inclusion to, to care for those environments, to think about how to show up with respect, with collegiality, with the kind of, of authenticity that is going to be find comfort, find breathing room in those sorts of spaces rather than folks thinking, okay, I made it into this room, now I better pretend that I'm not who I actually am, so that I continue to be invited back so that people treat me like I'm welcome, right?

Rather than really trusting that I belong. So again, I think it's why equity and inclusion really are the things that help us earn the diversity that then further supports those systems.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I think that's one of the big challenges with production right now, because the, the work there is [00:40:00] not just diversity and hiring all kinds of people and getting them in because there's still so much of, and then let me tell you how production works.

You need to be quiet, you need to learn, you need to keep your head down until you get some power. Like we're asking to kind of revolutionize that whole working model, which I think can be really threatening to people. Although find me a person who loves the culture and thinks it's really great and it feels good and they're super healthy working 20 hours a day and not sleeping and being yelled at.

Like, tell me how that's so great. But that there's sort of, you know, a pride in having survived that and, and thrived in that. And so we're asking that whole culture to shift and bring more people in. And I, and I think the thing that's probably going to do it, not that we need to rely on, on generations, but generations coming into this environment are demanding it be different.

I think they're doing that across the board. They're, they're over capitalism before they've gotten into it. But, um, I, I think it's going to really force a change. And I think the people who are gonna be [00:41:00] most successful are the ones who really embrace it and do everything that they can to shift it.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Well, I sure hope that that's true.

And I, and I wonder if you'll see that dynamic, you know, the generation thing will almost become, not necessarily, you know, an an age generation though, though. I, I certainly hope and suspect that that'll be part of it. But the generation might be those who got in the door because, The systems have been attended to better, right?

And that will then shape the culture and the expectations and the practices. And so, you know, hopefully we don't have to wait a whole generation or only rely on, you know, the, the, not just like the, like the bravery or the resilience, but just like the willingness of folks to stick around. I mean, this is why retention becomes critical as well, because enough bad experiences, you know, people are gonna care for themselves and, and maybe look for other avenues, you know, whether that's other production companies, other ways of making media, you know, so it's, it, it's really like what are the alternatives here?

Who is actually having fun? No one, right? [00:42:00] Uh, so, so I, I hope that that generation is, is busting down the doors. Uh, and I hope those doors are being disman. I mean, it

Julie Harris Oliver: should be fun. It's, it's everyone's dream who ev people travel all over the world to get into the business cuz it is, you know, it's their dream.

So it, it should be at least a good time,

at

least a pleasant experience. We'll keep working towards that. Okay. We've talked about this a little bit, but I, I'd love to do a little bit of a deeper dive. If we're talking about, um, white people

who I

say that with such ease, okay. If we're talking about white people who are really invested in doing this work and really want things to be fair and really are interested in racial justice, at the same time are very afraid to talk about it, don't know what to do, are afraid of being canceled or saying the wrong thing or causing harm or, or even just trying to talk about it in a way that is different from how they were brought up to talk about it.

Like how do you advise people on where to even start?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Um, it doesn't matter. Just start. [00:43:00] Right? And I know that's way easier said than done because of all of those anxieties that we talked about before, right? Um, no one's gonna gonna get it right all the time, in part because the, it is forever changing. I think that really what matters is showing up as a partner, showing up with humility, showing up with a willingness to see, to talk, to learn to try.

And not being so, uh, you know, it's like the bold saying, you know, the, the, we, we too often, in fact, this is one of the tenets of the lie of white supremacy, right? As, as we were invested in this perfectionism right? And we really make the perfect, the enemy of the good, right? I think we have to mess up and still show up.

I think that we have to still work on educating ourselves and to help educate one another. But I, I fear that in, in recent re years, You know what, what many have called kind of this big racial reckoning, that what that means is that white folks are passing around books in their little free libraries, [00:44:00] staying in their houses and reading them and not showing up in community to really engage in dialogue, to really roll up our sleeves with one another in community, to really act in solidarity, to really be in the mess.

And it's gonna be messy, right? Um, there's gonna be disagreements, there's gonna be challenges, there's gonna be times when we trip and fall on our own face and all we have to do is say, oops, and get up and keep going. Right? And again, I know that is way easier said than done, but my God, what's the alternative?

Julie Harris Oliver: Right? You just have, you just have to push through the shame of, of the. Um, you brought up white supremacy and perfectionism being a characteristic of white supremacy. I thought that, um, recently when I learned about the characteristics of white supremacy, I thought that was so interesting. Mm-hmm. Would you mind talking about that a little bit?

Like what are some of the characteristics of a white supremacy culture? Yeah. You know, I,

Dr. Meghan Burke: I can do that, but actually I, I wanna go back to, to, to what you said about the shame because it's, it's so real, really like that [00:45:00] feeling is so strong for white folks, and, and I think it's, I think it sits underneath that fear to engage that we've been talking about.

Which again, when you set that next to the other fears, like, like we've already discussed, you know, really the, the scale, the scale breaks quickly, you know, as it should. You know, I, I, I used to talk about it like this, right? It's sort of like, you know, this whole notion of, of white guilt, again, which is a reality that a lot of white folks feel as they begin to get into this space, but like, It really has no lasting utility.

I mean, I would say it barely has any utility at all. Like, what, what do, what do you do? And let's, let's, let's not talk about race. Let's be colorblind for a minute. Not talk about race. Like think about a time when you have felt guilty about anything. How do, how do you tend to respond when you're like, Ooh.

I did something messed up.

Julie Harris Oliver: I will. Um, well, I'm, I'm a parent also. Um, I will, I will ruminate, I will sit on it. I will not [00:46:00] sleep. I will reenact every dumb thing I said or did for what, possibly years.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Mm-hmm. And while you're doing that, uh, if you're, if you're anything like me, so I, I definitely exhibit some similar behaviors.

Like when I'm really, when I really feel guilty, like, oh, I really messed up, or I feel shame, or I feel right. I tend to cower, I tend to hide, I tend to disengage. Uh, you know, certainly plenty of folks out there will, will lash out or they'll get defensive, right? I mean, None of those behaviors. Right. So if we think about that difference between the feeling which we can sit with, we can own, right?

Uh, a good, healthy emotional intelligence will, will invite us to feel that feeling. And then, right.

Julie Harris Oliver: And the other thing is to then go to that person Yes. And try to get them to absolve me and tell me it was okay

actually. Exactly. We should

not [00:47:00] be doing in this arena.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Right. I think that self interrogation, self-awareness is critical.

And when we win again, when rather than if how, when, in what ways are we messing up? Right. And to be honest and reflective about that is critical. We, we can't not do that otherwise we're gonna be, you know, the most annoying, oppressive person ever. Right. But it's, it's a place to start and not a place to stay otherwise again.

And, and I think this circles back to your question about these tenets of, of white supremacy, the lie of white supremacy. Right. And, and the culture of white supremacy is that it makes it all about us. Yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I have had, um, I, I have had several instances lately where I have messed up mm-hmm. And I have ruminated for a day, and I've had to weigh, do I go back and apologize?

Or is that bringing it up again? Did they notice, is this about me? Am I trying to get them to comfort me? And at the same time, I owe that person an apology? So I've, I've done that dance [00:48:00] recently and, and I can think of a couple examples. One time I did go and apologize and not, and I was very clear about you don't, you don't need to comfort me.

I'm not even gonna repeat what I said. I know you clocked it. I'm here to apologize. I'm very sorry. I'm working on it. And I don't always go back and apologize if it's something. I just need to sit in my, in my shame and, and figure out how not to do, again, trying to gauge how, what I think the harm is. What do you think about that calculation and how we, how we should approach that?

Dr. Meghan Burke: I think that calculation will never spit out the same answer. No matter what we put in for those variables right there, I mean, it, it so much depends on the relationship. So much depends on the person. So much depends on where we are in the process. You know, similarly, you know, we, uh, I think as white folks, one of the things that we can do is, is hold each other accountable and have the conversation of, okay, how and in what ways do I wanna show up differently next time?

Rather than if, or weather, right. It says, I keep repeating the, the theme there, right. When, right. Yes. [00:49:00] When rather than if Right. We mess up. Um, and so I think there's not a great answer to any of that. There's, uh, you know, I I, I'd love to be able to come in and say, oh, every time this happens, go do that.

Right? But that can be just as fraught and that can be just, just as problematic. Right. Um, well

Julie Harris Oliver: luckily it's going to be different every time.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Exactly. Exactly. So it's sort of like, okay, what can I take from this into my next Interac? Like, what's the lesson that I've learned? Um, how can I take responsibility for, for what happened?

How can I. You know, go in and, and tinker with whatever needs tinkering with, right? For, for, you know, if it was, you know, something that had material consequences, you know, how, how can I step into correct those? If it's about the relationship, how can I be honest and responsible and mature and address it?

You know, again, that's always gonna look different depending on the relationship and, and the person that you're in dialogue with. But other than that, it's really about like, okay, how do I make sure that next time I show up a little bit better and how can I hold myself accountable? How can we as white folks hold each other [00:50:00] accountable as we go through that journey together?

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm tempted to give an example in, in the effort of transparency, we, we could take this out, which too, whatever, but, um, I, I have found my, one of my practices right now is to install my filter. I make. All the time. And that is part of my shtick. I find funny in whatever's happening, in whatever conversation, and I spit out jokes all the time.

And n not as a way to congen myself, but just a fact. I have three black children. I was married to a black man and had black family for a while. And the way we joked inside of our house, I, I ha it was my family. And I could joke in a certain way. Sometimes I forget walking around in the world that I am walking around in a white lady body and I cannot make the jokes that I might make with my children.

And so I've had to really work on installing that filter cuz it has gotten me in trouble. And then to give that whole explanation that I just gave to someone who I've really just heard because I was an asshole, because I [00:51:00] said something that I thought was funny in a different context. It's an ongoing.

Ongoing practice.

Dr. Meghan Burke: It is an ongoing practice. And, and some of what I hear in that is the thing that anyone who sits with a privileged identity, which is many of us, right? Because we are not just embodied in, uh, racial categories and racial identities, right? But we, we hold all sorts of other intersecting interlocking identities.

And so, you know, it's, uh, one of the things that privilege always wants is for us to forget that we are actually embodi. Right. And so some of what I hear in that is how much work it takes to remember that we're white, which sounds so obvious and sounds so basic. Um,

Julie Harris Oliver: but we are not generic people. Exactly.

We have an identity, right?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. White folks have a race just like everyone else. And owning that. And, and in fact, you know, this goes back to, you [00:52:00] know, some of, some of my scholarly background as well when I was starting my dissertation in, in the mid aughts, you know, a lot of the conversation around this was sort of, couldn't imagine that that white folks really could understand ourselves as racial beings.

That it was just, you know, sort of cognitively impossible for us to ever know, to ever understand, to ever talk about, to be thoughtful about the, the ways that, that we have a race, right? Race isn't something that just happens to people of color, right? That it, that it's happen to us, right? And in every single moment, that's worth staying in every single interaction, right?

And so how and in what ways do we work with that understanding, which is often, like we were talking about earlier, you know, partial and flawed and messy, and you know, like any form of privilege really, you know, we have created a. Culture in so many institutions that almost never invite us to see that.

And so that ongoing Oh, oh, oh, right. That, that I think you're discussing there. It, it's, it's, it's a forever [00:53:00] process. But, uh, but I think we learn all our hardest lessons through our biggest mistakes. And so, uh, you know, this is where we, we get better at it with time. This is part of the work. It is. This is the work.

Julie Harris Oliver: Can you talk a little bit more about, I mean, you've touched on it, but the, the whole, and Dr. Banks mentioned it in her interview about how we might be so invested, is seeing ourself as a good white person. You know, I'm one of the good guys and to confront that is, is really so difficult. How can that stand in the way of actually doing the work?

And how do you put that down and put that part? It's really ego. How do you put that down and really

Dr. Meghan Burke: engage? Yeah, I mean, it, it's, it sort of goes back to, to the thing that I've been saying, you know, we, we operate in such binaries, right? Am I a racist or am I not? Instead of how and in what ways, right. Am I one of the good ones or one of one of the bad ones, right?

Do do I have the racism? Right? Um, or, or is it [00:54:00] contagious? Did I get exactly, did I get the vaccine and now, now I just can't be right. But I mean, I think a lot of us operate on that ba on that basis. You know, we assume that if we hold certain politics, that we have the vaccine, um, we assume that, that if we, you know, hold other marginalized identities, Right.

That we couldn't, you know, we couldn't possibly. And so again, it's, it's, it's how and in what ways instead of how, or if

Julie Harris Oliver: it's like, it's like the outrage of I can't be racist, I'm a liberal. Exactly.

Dr. Meghan Burke: I'm, I'm a woman. I'm a woman. Such a feminist, you know, or, or I toom oppressed. Exactly. Exactly. And you know, and again, I think part of it is, is that we're rarely sanctioned though increasingly we have been thank goodness, right.

For, for showing up that way. It's part of how we learn kind of this whole colorblind framework, right? That that, that we don't have to think about our, our race or ourselves. But, you know, I think more, more importantly to your point there, I mean, I think. You know, if we focus so much on like, you know, I'm gonna be one of the good ones, right?[00:55:00]

Um, and that's where all of our energy and all of our focus goes, and that's, that's how we're just spending all of our bandwidth. Then, you know, we're just, as you said, we're making it all about us, which is the whole thing that is white folks. We need to unlearn, right? That those, those are often the oppressive practices that create a lack of an inclusive environment at the very least.

Right. You know, attending to and, and caring for, you know, the privileges that we have not earned. That's what makes them privileges. Right. The honored advantages, I mean, just like, you know, we were talking earlier about the, you know, the push to eradicate affirmative action. It, it's also self-protective.

Right. And it's tricky because it comes from that place of anxiety that we've talked about where, oh my gosh, I, I, I would hate to be found out as one of the racists, right? But, but when we focus so much on, on making sure that we're not. You know, considered that way. I mean, a, you know, we're not fooling anybody.

Right. Um, you [00:56:00] know, but, but much like Dr. Banks said as well, you know, it's really easy. There's, there's a long, ugly history that has showed up, you know, in all sorts of ways where there are plenty of, of good people that can exist inside of a, a, a bad system, especially when we think good just means nice, or I didn't say the n word, or I didn't make whatever kind of joke, or I'm, I'm, you know, um, I'm really fun to be around or, or any of that kind of stuff, you know?

I'm so nice. Exactly. Yeah. So it, it, it really, I think we somehow forget, even though it should be painfully obvious that it's, it's an incredibly self-centered approach. Right. You know, another way that, that I think I've seen this work and, and we talked about this, right, is, is to sort of be like, Have this idea that we can wiggle out of our whiteness by focusing on those other identities.

Right. And again, like it's just, it's just not how it works. It, you know, more and more folks are, are using these days the language of intersectionality. But intersectionality is simply the [00:57:00] recognition of the reality. That, uh, we all hold multiple social identities that matter to the outside world and that are shaping our lives and who we are and our experiences in a whole variety of, of interlocking complex ways.

But we tend to think of it instead as, as this kind of point system, right? So if, if I have more marginalized identities than I do privileged ones, then, then somehow I won a game. That actually means on the rest of the world I'm losing. But, but it gets me out of this whole thing where I have to be complicit with, with, uh, racism and whiteness, right?

Instead of being like, no, like white ant. Well, it's is

Julie Harris Oliver: the oppression Olympics

Dr. Meghan Burke: is one of the events. Right? Exactly. Exactly. Right. And so, you know, it's, it's, again, it's a, it's a bad habit that, that, I think one of the ways that we can hold each other accountable as white folks is, is kind of, you know, gently challenging, uh, or firmly challenging challenge.

However you need to challenge, um, in, in those kinds of moments. Cuz it, it, it really doesn't help. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: So we know that just assuming that we are a good [00:58:00] person and therefore none of this is really my problem. I think I would say if you're, if you're calling yourself a good person and you see the systemics problems, it's on you to start fixing it.

Sure. So get in there, get in there and do the work. But what are some of the other things that. That really get in our way.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. I mean, on one level it's kind of tangled up in that. Right? And this is where it goes back to, to some of my academic research where I've, I've actually looked across the political spectrum.

So, uh, it's, it's easy and especially in such a, a polarized political environment like the one that we're in to, you know, it's like, it's more of that finger pointing thing. Like they're the bad ones, that's the bad party. Those are the folks, right? Who, who are doing the harm and, and I'm on the side of good and, and all of that.

You're terrible. Exactly. Exactly. Right. But really that the, the colorblind framework really is found evident throughout the political system, right? And, um, I've done research but also worked in Right, hello higher ed, uh, so-called progressive spaces where, where people have been really deeply unwilling to break out of the framework of colorblindness and, and [00:59:00] for white folks to, you know, to ask the how and it ways question for fear of it illuminating the IF and weather.

And I think one of the kind of gnarly ways that that shows up is, and, and I think this, this taps into some of what we were talking about previously as well. So I've also written about a form of racism that I labeled sympathetic racism, right? Hmm. Which really ends up just being that cultural racism frame.

That's the one that wants to kind of blame your credit culture and, and ignore, you know, structural, um, barriers or, or unfair systems of advantage, right? So it's like that cultural racism frame that, that's kind of layered and presented with, with Petty, right? It's like saying like, oh, it's just, it's just too bad that some families, you know, don't, don't teach the right values to their kids.

Or, you know, oh gosh. It's just such a shame that internalized racism that, that people of color, you know, seem to have. It's, it's really holding them back. Isn't that sad? Right. Which, you know, uh, there's, there's a million things wrong with all of that. Right. Um, part [01:00:00] of it, you know, I think really. Makes evident the lack of, of real experience with folks of, of color, um, who, who engage in, in those realities in, in much more complex ways.

Like so for example, right? Um, internalized racism, uh, is, is a much more layer and much more nuanced. Uh, there's a lot more resilience. There's, you know, it's, it's an a, it's a deep awareness and there there's just so much more going on there than like, oh, it's just too bad that they, they have the racism too.

Right? Um, how insulting

Julie Harris Oliver: that you tell them that they're suffering under a system of

Dr. Meghan Burke: oppression. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, it distorts the, the resilience and the other kind of well honed coping strategies and, and any marginalized person develops in the face of those systems of oppression, right? Uh, that, which by the way, they see and understand, again, far more clearly than we do from that sort of pitying, sympathetic, quote unquote, um, sort of perspective.

I mean, no one wants our pity. Right. No. What, what, what we need [01:01:00] and, and what folks who experience the harms of oppression, which I would argue we all do, right, is, is for us to show up and to help to change, uh, those houses and vehicles where we still hold the keys, right? So, so that's one. It's, it's just kind of getting out of that.

So what's interesting there is that, that I saw that even across the political spectrum, right? You know, kind of well-meaning white liberals, um, as well as some pretty far right conservatives, um, in another project that I did kind of showed up in really similar ways there. So I think it's, I think it's another thing to look out for, cuz it's one of the expressions of the, I'm one of the good ones cuz I care so much and it's so sad that this is a thing and yet right.

Lacks that deeper analysis and, and lacks that willingness to do anything about it. Okay. Speaking

Julie Harris Oliver: of lacking the awareness, can we talk about, just as we're, we're coming up on, we've, we've done a lot of time, let's talk about the concerted. Effort to make sure that people don't learn anything about this in school.

Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, Florida, hello. And now it's really seems to be sweeping across the south of, [01:02:00] and not to, not to lump in the south, but Texas, Florida, um, where people are freaking out about c r t in schools and teaching. I mean, Florida just banned teaching of African American history at all, like book banding.

What, what, what are we doing?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah, I mean, we're, we are legislating colorblindness, right? We're mandating it. I mean, it's, it's, it's colorblindness in action, right? I mean, it, it's, it's, it shouldn't be surprising and yet it's astonishing, right? Uh, we're clearly, when I say we as white folks, I say we as, uh, reflective of those systems of power that are really looking to be more firmly entrenched through these policies that are, are horrific, right?

Well, it's like we're so. That looking clearly at our history, at our institutions, at our culture will like, I don't know, like hurt the feelings of white folks or, you know, white folks have such a long history of just being so afraid of the anger, right? The totally justified anger and [01:03:00] frustration of people of color.

And that's because of our own history and actions. It's because of the, the things, uh, that we have done that, that make that anger justified. That it's like, it won't let us look, it won't let us see it, it won't let us learn, right? In schools, we are not allowed to learn, to explore, to build community and connection, right?

Um, which is the thing that anti-racist organizing meaningfully does, right? Um, so it, it, it clearly doesn't want us to do any of those things, you know, it's chilling for our democracy. Um, and it really, it really guarantees the existence, the ongoing existence. Of an anti-democratic system. It's, it's really troubling.

It's not great. No. And I think it also reveals how fragile whiteness is. Yeah. You know, so many identities that have been built. Right. So whiteness is, is just as unreal. And yet we have made as real as, as any other racial category, right. It was created to justify unfair power systems. But, but it [01:04:00] won't let us, it won't let us see it, it won't let us name it, you know, it, it prevents us from, from really understanding.

I mean, this is the thing too. I think white folks who find ways to still show up, engage, learn, be in community, there's, there's so much fear, right. I think of it's, it, you know, we've talked about this a couple times along the way, you know, and I, I think it just prevents us from getting there in a way where we can experience what I think so many white folks who do engage in this.

Actually experience when we go there, when we have those conversations, when we look hard at those systems, when we work on changing policies, which is warmth and connection and community and freedom, right? All of this stuff comes from engaging and cross racial solidarity, but it tells us that, that we can't even get near that third rail or, or there's gonna be some sort of deathly electric charge in instead of real, real connection.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's

Julie Harris Oliver: bizarre and it's such a, it's such an American. Thing like, uh, I'm about to wax on

Dr. Meghan Burke: about [01:05:00] something I know nothing about, so I'm gonna stop right there. Okay. What, uh, since every,

Julie Harris Oliver: everything is terrible and hopeless, um, what, what would you leave us with? It's actually a glimmer of hope.

What can we do? What can we think about? What, what are the bright lights on the

Dr. Meghan Burke: horizon? Yeah. Well, um, you know, I, I mentioned this earlier, but you know, when, when I started working on my dissertation in the mid aughts, you know, even, even a lot of those, you know, scary critical race scholars, um, were, were really contending that that white people had no idea that we were white.

We couldn't possibly coherently, you know, think or talk about race or especially our own whiteness. You know, and, and, and my research and, and alongside some others really has, has proven that that's simply not true. I think even then I was asking how and in what ways. Uh, white folks think about our own racial identities rather than if we did or could.

And it doesn't mean that we always think about it in in, in helpful or, or progressive ways, but, you know, I think fast forward a generation or so now, right? And we, we [01:06:00] have seen at least the beginnings, I think of, of a deep racial reckoning. You know, I, I do often agree with those who have been critical of, of the longevity of that racial reckoning.

Uh, or, or the real commitments that are, that are coming through there. Um, you know, I, I think that's, cuz people are still stuck on, on somehow trying to think that that their task, that our task is to fight racism itself instead of really focusing on, okay, well how, how does that show up in concrete ways in your life?

And so asking how and in what ways, right? I think, I think is forever our guide and, and you know, that can look all sorts of ways, you know, how how do we support those who are, who are struggling on the frontline? Right, and, and, and how do we get to those front, front lines and struggle alongside them?

There's all sorts of movements that are, that are really exciting and promising taking place right now. You know, the labor movement teachers are organizing, you know, more and more medical school students are, are demanding to learn about the social determinants of health and, and how to really, Actively engage, uh, anti-biased training.

[01:07:00] So, so that they don't make the same mistakes, uh, that have been so prevalent in the medical system in the past. The movement for Black Lives, of course, right. Uh, that I know, at least in my community. Um, yes, you hear folks out on the street saying Black Lives matter and, and, and what a simple statement of dignity and, and the vitriol that that evokes is, is, is still kind of shocking.

But you know, how that shows up is looking at our policing systems, at looking at our education system, looking at, you know, very ordinary things that, that don't sound as scary, I think as, as too many folks imagine. You know, really it comes down to we all just have to look at our own spheres of influence, our workplaces, our school boards, our police, our neighborhoods, and there.

In each of those, our, our faith communities. If, if that's where you engage, right? And see the concrete places that we can actually make some real contributions toward equity and inclusion, it's not gonna look like going out and fighting this nebulous thing called racism. Uh, I grew up, I grew up in the era of, of watching the old show, [01:08:00] Pete and Pete, where like one of the characters of God and try to like beat up the ocean, right?

Uh, aids were rolling in, right? It, it was a fruitless and, and sort of hilarious endeavor. But instead, right, h how and in what ways is racism and, and unfair advantages, um, and disadvantages showing up in the places where I care about and to just show up, get curious, stay engaged, and start somewhere.

Julie Harris Oliver: Dr.

Meghan Burke, thank you so much for doing this.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I love this podcast, and it was, it was an honor to be here. Where can people find you if you want people to find you? Sure. You can find me on LinkedIn. Um, my handle there is Meghan, b p h d. Uh, my first name is spelled with an H, so m e g h a n b p h d.

Uh, thank you forever to one of my students who, who urged me to take that handle, uh, for everything that I have. Uh, and, and I do have a website. It's Meghan Burke, so m e g h a n b u r k e weebley.com.

Julie Harris Oliver: The weebley part is important. [01:09:00] If you just do the.com, you find somebody else. I learned the hard way. Oh, no.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you. Alright, thank you. You've been listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver, thank you to Dr. Meghan Burke for sharing your expertise. And special thanks to Jay Rowe, Danny Rosner and Allison McQuaid for the music. Go check out the Catch A Break podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry.

You can find this podcast on the other 50 percent.com, all spelled out in letters and on all the podcast places. And you can find me and my work@julieharrisoliver.com. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

EP 225: Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] You're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. We are continuing our series of talking with experts who work in various aspects of diversity, equity, and inclusion across industries and in entertainment. Specifically today, I sat down with Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque is a licensed psychologist with over a decade of experience furthering equity focused initiatives.

Her research interests have focused on the mental health impacts of racial discrimination on black Americans, with an emphasis on the intersections of trauma and gender. Currently, Dr. Thelemaque owns a Bay Area therapy practice, in addition to holding numerous roles within the psychological community. She works with renowned mental health organizations, including the National Center for P T S D as a mobile applications tester, content writer, and subject matter expert on the issues of race.

She maintains a leadership role within the California Psychological Association as the chair-elect of the division for Diversity and social justice. [00:01:00] Additionally, she collaborates with individuals in various organizations As a diversity, equity, and inclusion consultant, her focus is on developing psychologically safe trauma informed work environments, and navigating racial trauma and people of color.

She is amazing. We are so lucky to have her on the podcast here. Have a listen, see what they wanna see. Welcome Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque to the other 50%. It's so nice to see you.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: It's lovely to be here with you and see you. This is really exciting. Just happy to jump into.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now, I know you do a lot of work in therapy and mental health, in trauma, in, in so many things, but maybe you could tell us in your own words kind of the focus of your work and what you do.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: That's a great question cuz I do a little bit of everything. I say a jack of all trades, a master of some. So, um, in terms of what I. . My goal overall is just to make more safe and equitable spaces and for people who are, especially at the [00:02:00] margins, to feel empowered to do their breast work, which isn't just traditional work.

It's their work and life, how they're moving through relationships, and how they're navigating all the things around them. So that involves doing work clinically and in therapy that's focused on like centering values and figuring out where you wanna be and getting the skills, knowledge, and awareness of yourself to be able to get through it.

Um, and since I have a trauma background, that also involves working through some of those traumas and other things that might be impacting you. And then when I do my consulting and other type of work, it's really focused. Education around those things. Helping people to connect and hopefully giving them some empowering tools so they can move forward and impacting their circles.

Cuz I think we can all be leaders and shift and change dynamics, but it has to be a collective process where we're all doing our own individual work and working together. So that's always my goal and that looks different in each setting based on who the group is, but that's kind of the [00:03:00] underlying process.

Julie Harris Oliver: You are doing the important work of the world, , helping everyone keep it together. ,

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: that's the goal. Does it always work?

Julie Harris Oliver: I know you also work with people who work in production and you know, it's an industry that really prides itself on. Grit, , you know, people working really hard, people working really long hours.

It's really hard, like for some reason it's, even if you're doing the the most lighthearted comedic project, there's still an incredible amount of pressure, incredible amount of hours. And then if you're working on. Really traumatic content or in really difficult circumstances, you know, there's this whole range of what people go through in production and so I would love it if we could talk a little bit, I know one of your specialties is, uh, trauma, you know, and what does that, what does that look like across the board?

And I know you've worked with people in production, so kind of what does that look like in production for people? The longest question in the world? ,

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: but a great question. [00:04:00] Um, so when I think of. It's hard to have just one specific definition that works for everybody. There's a clinical definition, meaning it's, you know, reached a certain threshold where you might get a mental health diagnosis, a trauma related or stress related diagnosis.

And that's usually when it's a life-threatening event or it's kind of real or a threatened kind of violence that occurs or something that's really we'll. Can lead to an injury, something pretty extreme. So, and that could include witnessing it and that could include like learning about something that happened very suddenly.

So there's that kind of one end of the spectrum. And then there's another end of the spectrum that can be the daily life stressors that take a toll on our body and our mental health. So stress is normal, natural. Even if we're doing something we love and enjoy, it's gonna be stressful. Our body's going to react to it.

Our heart rate might go up. We might get a little sweaty. It might be hard to focus, it might even be [00:05:00] hard to sleep. You know, we can always think of those exciting nights, um, before something big where we just really can't relax. We we're so restless and it's so difficult. . That's just our body reacting to stress when we think about trauma.

It's just more extreme stressor that has, uh, a bigger impact on us. And there can be some after effects of that. As I mentioned, like issues with sleep, issues with concentration, your memory starts to go out the window a bit cuz if you're not focusing, you're not gonna remember things. And there's always a sense of.

Feeling like it's never enough to you, which I think can be big. So when I think of productions and the work that's being done and entertainment, it's a lot of very long hours, tight schedules, a lot of things happening at once. And you're trying to not only do your job, but you're also trying to process everything that's happening.

And there's 50 different pieces or more at times that have to come together for you to get the right scene, the right [00:06:00] shot, and to be able to move through the process. So when I'm thinking about. Trauma and stress and looking at it from a production. , there can be some situations, there might be more trauma inducing.

There can be, um, based on our own background and experiences, our childhood experiences and I should say trauma is, and having, they call them like adverse childhood experiences or events, um, like having some forms of abuse and neglect and all of that. Quite common, unfortunately.

Julie Harris Oliver: I know a lot of people have gone through that list.

You know, as that list has gone through the internet and been like, oh God, I ticked five or six things. I didn't realize I had childhood trauma, you know? We're so conditioned to just keep on keeping on not realizing how these things affect us.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Exactly. In many ways, a lot of us have gone through a lot of things, most of us have.

Um, it's very rare for somebody to say, I have absolutely no bad experiences in life. Nothing that would, I'm fine. Yeah, [00:07:00] totally fine. Nothing has happened. Life is perfect. So knowing. You know, stress doesn't discriminate. It's also important to acknowledge stress is not equally distributed across our population.

Mm-hmm. . So we know that if you are, for example, woman, you're more likely to have, you know, these adverse events, these traumatic events. Than, um, your male counterparts. Um, or if you're part of the LGBTQ plus spectrum, there's going to be certain things that you experience that your, um, heterosexual or cisgender counterparts won't experience.

And if you're a person of color, you know, there will be things that you'll be exposed to at higher rates, some of your white counterparts. So in many ways, um, when we're thinking about how this shows. On a production where there's a variety of people with their different backgrounds, their life experiences, and that exposure to all of that heightened stress and potential traumas, it really can come to a point where people may be not speaking up for what they need.

Maybe being more short, more [00:08:00] irritable, might be having issues that kind of bubble over and you're like, that seems so small. Why were we having this big deal out of it? You know, why are we yelling right now? Why Yes. Why is someone yelling? Yes. And I come from a family that yells, I'm fine with yelling , but I grew up in Jersey.

It's a thing we're very loud, but in many ways, knowing that we have all of these things we're bringing into it that it's not that we exist in a vacuum. It's important to recognize how our mental health, how our traumas, how the other stressors happening in our lives might be compressed when we're in this really tight, potentially stressful and by potentially absolutely stressful environment on our production and working in entertainment and.

Knowing that you'll have so many people also looking at your work, like there's additional pressures that happen that compound. All of those previous things are also impacting us every day.

Julie Harris Oliver: There's like an extra layer of vulnerability also as you're doing [00:09:00] creative work and showing the thing that you created, whether you're in costumes or makeup or hair or construction, or there's always someone who will have something to say about the thing you created.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Absolutely, and knowing that. , that's gonna raise your anxiety potentially if something goes wrong on the day. Like maybe you had a really great plan, you were like, this is how the hair's gonna be. Here's what the costume, like every detail and something doesn't work out, something goes wrong. But you still have to go on, like the show has to go on in many ways.

Pivot. Pivot. Yeah. It's constant stress going into it. And we are humans. Mistakes will happen, issues will come up. We always have to figure out how to rebound from them. But in many ways, if we're not considering the many types of stresses that might come in and doing that continual work to make sure we're taking care of ourselves individually and collectively, it's gonna lead to a lot more hardship than would be necessary.

Pain is a part of life, but we don't have to.

Julie Harris Oliver: I [00:10:00] love that. Now, is it true that this will also accumulate over time? Like it may not feel that big of a deal show by show, but then 20 years have gone. and it does it build up that way?

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. When we think about things like trauma, it can be very cumulative. If we think about stressors, it's can build up over time.

I always like to think about, and mind you, I haven't worked out in a while, so we'll acknowledge that. But , when you're working out and you're building up a new muscle, you know that that is kind of. Uh, stress tears might happen and then you rebuild and you build. But you're, if you are not being mindful of how you engage, how you're rebuilding, like eating more protein and having rest days, you know that that will just turn into a bigger injury and you might break something or tear something that then you might need surgery for.

So if we take that example, , you know, mental health is similar. That if we're not doing those constant checks and making sure like, okay, we had a bit of stressor that could be good or bad. You know, like [00:11:00] how are we healing from it? How are we taking care of ourselves? It becomes something that is a lot bigger and we'll require a lot more of our attention to take care of

Julie Harris Oliver: now how, let's talk about how you do heal that.

Cause I think there's a lot of talk in this business about, you know, you need to take care of your body. You need to watch what you're eating. You need to not be at craft service all day long. You really have to make an effort to sleep. But there's not a lot of talk about how are you also caring for your mental health as part of it.

So what would you suggest?

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah, and I should say, I think all those are great suggestions. Um, in terms of making sure you we're against your physical health. Yes. Yeah. Physical health is really important cuz it is tied to our mental health. But in many ways, I think if we just focus on the physical, we miss out on a, a huge part of it.

If we're just saying you should eat a certain way, but we're. Having conversations with, like, everybody has their own version of health and you know, what are some things, um, causing you to be engaging in a certain way, we won't really get a good solution. So I'm always thinking about [00:12:00] healing in terms of.

This is, it's funny cuz I'm going to, as I give this advice, I'm like, this is gonna sound so basic, but doing daily check-ins with yourself, I always like to have ritual. So I think ritual can be so important to reregulate ourselves, uh, especially in this day and age where you might be doing some things in a hybrid method where you might be doing some things remotely, some things in person.

You're meeting new people all the time. There's a lot of engagement happening. So you want to have a nice virtual starting your day where you. Do some meditation. You might just take a few deep breaths. I'm always a fan of if you want to read, if you wanna listen to music, things that allow you to really transition, ease into your day, because there's gonna be a lot of.

Moving quickly and a lot of stressors going on during, and I know also if you are shooting or filming those days, start very early . This might be like four or five in the morning where you're like, let me get myself ready. So having any kind of ritual allows you to feel prepared. And then at the end of the day, I always like tap a ritual when I'm [00:13:00] transitioning back into other parts of my life.

So if you can think about. Having clothes that you take off. I will say this, my mom always said, you need to have like in the house clothes, not of the house clothes. . That might be a like black Caribbean thing. Um, but I, but also take your shoes off. Yes. number one. It's also less mess and easier to actually clean.

But yes, just having that where I'm like, oh, when I wear this outfit, this is, I'm in work mode. When I change into a different pair of clothes, maybe it's my favorite sweatpants. Maybe it's like a really loose flaunty blouse that I'm just like, and this is what I eat. Dinner in , whatever it is.

Julie Harris Oliver: We, we, we take our bra off.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes. . Yes. Take your bra off. Which is always my favorite part of the end of the day, honestly.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's a marker. It's a marker.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes. I'm just saying Yes. And you just figure out what your. Ritual is how it feels to shift out of that space and [00:14:00] really give yourself the opportunity to say, I'm in a new environment.

Let me not carry some of that stress in. And if you are feeling it coming up, I'm always a fan of writing it out or even setting worry time, especially if you're somebody who's more anxious. What I mean by that is cause I saw your face . You just were like, huh, where are you? Time? But where, what I mean by that is that, um, I felt that deeply.

When you actually are trying to go to bed at night and you're just like, oh, but I have to do that. Oh, but there's this, there's so many things to worry about every day, and if you said, I'm not gonna worry about this at 9:00 PM I'm gonna worry about this at 6:00 PM like, I will find a time and I'll schedule it in just like a meeting and I will write out all the things that I'm worried about.

And I'll actually say, is this workable? Are there things that I actually do need to handle and need to have them handle tonight? Or are there things that I can schedule out, things to be aware of, people I can talk to, support I can get? Cause you don't wanna do it all on your own and that can free [00:15:00] up your mind.

When you're trying to rest at night to say, oh, I don't need to worry about this now. I have 6:00 PM tomorrow to worry about this. And if there's something really important, you might jot it down. I always like to say in whatever your notes file is on your phone, or um, if you have a notebook, a physical notebook near you to jot down some things and you're like, this is my worry journal.

Worry about this later. And you can kind of put things down. But it's really about how do you settle into your body and your. Day to day, and if you're at work, you might need to take some deep breaths. Maybe you jot down some of those things that are on your mind that you're worrying about or coming up, but really figuring out how do you put some, some of those things down so you can pick up the things that are important to you in that moment.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. I'm definitely trying that cuz I am a person who will, the minute my head hits the pillow, start processing my whole day and obsessing . I, I'm gonna enjoy writing it down and not doing that. I will, I will check back and let you know how that goes. Please do. I also wanna talk about, you know, in, in production there's different, there's [00:16:00] different genres, there's different, you know, working on a game show is probably very different from, um, a documentary about something really traumatic or, or a docudrama or something like that.

And I know you've done some work with, uh, like producers who are working on documentaries or dofollow. Because there's the one piece is you're dealing with subjects who are in or have gone through trauma that you need to take care of. And also that can be very triggering for you as a producer experiencing that with them.

So you also need to take care of yourself. So how, how do you advise people to kind of handle both of those pieces and that kind

of content?

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah, I'll say, and there's a couple of different productions and, and different people that I've worked with that came to mind, but I found that just having the conversation was really important to acknowledge what was going on.

To say like, oh, this can be heavy and I want to also do this work with care while I'm taking care of myself. [00:17:00] That can just go a long way and figuring out what are those social supports you'll need to have in place to make that a possibility. Cuz I think if we feel like we have to do it individually, like.

I'm the producer. I have to just keep going. And once we get done with this, then I'll focus on myself. That might never happen. There will always be another thing that comes up. There's post-production, there's this and that. So I found that having those conversations before filming starts is really important and figuring out like what do we have in place?

If that's an e, a P, meaning employee assistance program, where people can have maybe some mental health treatment that they can access if they. , having a one-time person they can talk to goes a long way. Even as I mentioned, having some of those routines and rituals can be really important and grounding as you're going through a lot to say, what can I do to ground myself if that's going for a walk?

Um, if you're physically able to, if that's kind of settling into it and then figuring out if you know that there will be [00:18:00] certain things that will be particularly triggering for you to have a little bit more care on those. Naturally our body is going to be a little bit more riled up. We'll say your blood pressure might be higher, you might be a little bit more on edge.

Like our body kind of reacts to it cuz we're sensing a, a danger or we're sensing a kind of threat, whether that be actual or, you know, um, related to our past experiences. So I'm always a fan. Planning ahead. That might be my Cat Moon, Virgo ASC ending, but , I'm, that might just be me, but I'm always a fan of saying, okay, I know today will be a particularly difficult day.

We're gonna be listening to a lot of stories. I'm gonna be taking a lot in, I wanna give people space to have conversations. That can, um, be those times where you want to take a step back and take a little bit more care of yourself. You might say, oh, let me not plan anything else after this. Let me give myself some decompression time and have a good friend or [00:19:00] colleague that I trust who would understand my experience that I'm gonna call and talk to about it.

And just really figure out what it means to have confidants. And I think framing is so important. I think we always think about framing in terms of, uh, a shot or, you know, things we're doing. But framing your day, framing your conversations, framing what you're gonna do, and setting an intention can go a long way.

And that includes when you're working with your subjects as well, if you can tell them. I know we're gonna get into some difficult things. I know tears might come, emotions might rise. That's okay. Giving yourself and others permission to have those emotions goes such a long way in terms of feeling comfortable easing into it, rather than sensing it as more of a threat than it needs to be.

Julie Harris Oliver: I love that. And at the part about planning ahead reminded me, I, I recently heard Tracy Ellis Ross not a podcast talking about, um, you know, she's fairly introverted. You wouldn't know it. Seeing her out in the world. But that takes a lot out of her, you know, as it does for introverts. And it, she knows if she has a big event or a big day, she [00:20:00] schedules the next day to have nothing.

To have her support system with her so that she can process the day. Because you know, you're always looking back thinking, oh God, what did I say? What did I wear? How did I look? Blah, blah, blah. And, and she schedules that timeout. I'm so smart knowing I love that, what she needs to do, take care of herself.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. And I think that's also particularly powerful when you're dealing with someone to just to name it. This is gonna be hard, and we're, we're in this together. I'm here for you. Let's, let's do the super brave thing and, and go through it.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then I think there's a piece right at the end not to be like, cut.

Okay, lunch. Gotta go, , walk away. I, I, it feels like there's a moment after that to kind of, I always talk about it like, You've opened someone up, you kind of need to close 'em back up before sending them off in the world, right?

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes, absolutely. And how do you kinda do that? Absolutely. I, and this is what I do as a clinician all the time, cuz people will come to me with the big emotions, we'll say, um, or will uncover things that we weren't expecting to uncover.

And the unexpected can feel really [00:21:00] difficult to really close up. I'm always a fan of saying, let's just do a couple deep breath. because physiologically when we're in that state, our blood pressure rises. It's harder to take deep breaths, actually, and our blood vessels get a bit more constricted, but they shift.

So it can be really important to just say, we're gonna take five seconds and take three really deep breaths and just say, how was that? Let's just take a minute to just reflect and if there's anything you wanna shift, change or any feedback you wanna give, I'm open. But just leaving it for people to get back down to their kind of normal, whatever that is for them, um, can be really helpful.

And just acknowledging like, this might be challenging for the next day or two. You might need a little bit more support. Let's actually think about that. Like I love what traces Ross is doing cuz that. Exactly what I would say, duke, that is perfect, which is knowing yourself and doing what you need to [00:22:00] to take care of yourself.

And setting aside that time and scheduling it in. I mean, again, love a good schedule. So that really resonates.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and knowing, uh, sometimes you're going to have a vulnerability hangover. I think Brene Brown talks about the vulnerability hangover, and as soon as I heard that term, I was like, oh yes. I've often had a vulnerability hangover, especially podcasting.

I know sometimes my guests have a vulnerability hangover and we'll talk the next day, you know, to kind of process through it cuz it's, you know, it's intimate and it's a lot sometimes. Yeah. It's, it's so important to

take care of yourself.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. Debriefing is so,

Julie Harris Oliver: Let's also talk about racial or identity trauma being in majority white spaces because I think there's a perception amongst well-meaning white people and that if I'm just very nice, then no one should have a problem and we're all just fine.

And um, you know, we talked to Dr. Banks recently who said, you can't nice your way out of racism. And also, I think we have this false sense [00:23:00] of, well, everybody's comfortable and everybody's acting like they're fine. So as long as we're nice. , everybody's fine. I suspect that's not actually the case, so maybe you can , maybe you can talk about what that's really like for people being the only in the room or being one of few and based

on your identity.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. I always am reminded of, it's kind of like culture shock or I always think of the first time I moved to, so I went to grad school in St. Louis and I grew up in New Jersey, and so coming to the Midwest. Was very different for me. And I realized like, wow, there's a learning curve here. There are just things that I don't know that I don't know, , and I'm constantly off balance just a little bit.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like my jokes aren't quite landing.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes. The way I interact with people. It isn't quite, I mean, I get that a

lot. . Absolutely. And you've lived in New York cause you know, the Jersey, New York kind of energy and vibe. Um, yeah. So even walking into a room and just being more. and that not being [00:24:00] received well, and you're like, I am so confused.

I always like to think that when we are the only, we oftentimes will go back to that sense of anxiety that you have as you enter into a room and everything slightly off and you're not really sure why. It's kind of like. Knowing that anything you do will also be under a bit of a microscope because people will be expecting certain things of you, and you might live up to those expectations or not, but you're constantly aware that there are expectations, so you can never fully relax.

It's like taking a test, but it's a pop quiz every day. You know, there's a , you know, there's an exam coming, you don't know what the test is, you don't know what it is, and you have it studied and you're just constantly going with that sense of unease cuz you're waiting for the, for the other shoe to drop and say, okay, and now we're taking the test and now we're doing this.

So in many ways, when we're the only. In a space, it can feel very unsafe cuz you're not really sure what everybody's intentions are. You're not really sure if it's safe to fully be yourself [00:25:00] and you're not really sure if people will receive you well when you are yourself because of their preexisting expectations of you.

So in many ways, being nice, sounds great, , it sounds ideal, but your version of niceness might be the same thing that puts somebody else on edge. So it'll be really important to. Set intentions in a space, consider that people probably will come in a little bit more on guard, a little bit uneasy, just as you would in any new social setting, when you don't really know anybody in the room if you're introduced.

I love my metaphor, so apologies if I give you too many , but bring it. Bring it. I always think it's just like when you go to a party and maybe you have a new partner and you're meeting all their. You're going to be really on edge. Like I wanna make a good impression. I don't know who these people are. I don't know all these inside jokes, everybody has these things.

So in that same way, if you approached everyone who might be the only in the space as someone trying to make a good impression, [00:26:00] while also wanting to be comfortable, be at ease, try to be themselves while also not being too much of themselves and really relating to it like a new person at a party. You would have a little bit more empathy for that concern, and you really want to, instead of saying, why are we talking about race?

Why does this apply? We shouldn't be bringing it in at all to say, how does it apply? How is it shifting somebody's experience potentially? , are there differences in this space? Why is there only one person of this identity in this space? Like, let's have those conversations and that analysis and we can still come up and say, I, I know that you're probably feeling on edge.

I know this is probably like a scary new situation, or maybe something you've dealt with many times, but I wanna just let you know I'm here, I'm present, I see the dynamics. I'm gonna try to be helpful. Feel free to come to me if you need that support. You know, really figuring out what it means to show up for people.

and then also maybe shift those, uh, underlying systems and structures and make it so there's only one person of that [00:27:00] identity in the room. That would be great. Right?

That, that's a really important question of let's,

let's address that. Why have we created the situation and then what are the things that we can do to, um, Change it.

Yeah. I think this is part of the culture work that we're trying to do on productions and why we talk so much about, it's so important to focus on equity and it's so important to focus on inclusion in order to create an environment where diversity can occur and be successful. . And so what, what are some of the things that people can actually do besides being nice, uh, to create a real equitable and inclusive environment?

Well, I think the first thing that I kind of modeled was ask people how they actually feel in that space. A lot of times people will know what allows 'em to feel more comfortable, and if you can make approximations to it, That goes a long way. In all of the trainings we've done, the workshops we've put together and the feedback I've received from cast crew and other folks, um, on a [00:28:00] production.

Most people just say having somebody ask their opinion goes a long way. Somebody knowing their name and not just referring to them as their department. Goes a really long way. People touching base and asking, do you need more help, mentorship, or support. Um, and especially those who might be more senior or have more leadership or might have just been there for an extra season or two than somebody else, them coming in and purposefully inviting them into a conversation does so much.

So if that's the somebody's first day saying, Hey, I know that you're. Let me introduce you to so-and-so. Um, would you be open to me providing you with some support? I'm always a fan of consent. I love consent and all things. So asking. First, somebody might say, no, I'm good. Or they might say, yes, thank you so much.

I've been waiting for someone to come up to me. But you give them the opportunity to open up, to connect, and for you to potentially support them. And that goes so far in terms of feeling people, feeling [00:29:00] included and if issues come up, which they will as you were going through all of this stress. You know, situations, as we mentioned, trauma, stress, all those things from our background coming forward, it helps if you actually have a personal connection with somebody, if you care about them in some regard, if that's caring about the relationship you have with them, how you wanna move forward, you're more likely to actually have a personal conversation.

if something comes up, you're more likely to get that feedback if you've messed up. And that goes a long way in making sure that you don't continue to do any unintentional harm. And it makes it so that people know that it's a space where they can show up how they need to, which, you know, there are different norms and standards for every, you know, sector, department, place, but they know they can at least.

Talk about it, have a conversation if something comes in and that avoids a lot of heartache, headaches, and issues later, typically we don't want to, um, deal with something after the [00:30:00] fact. It's better to deal with it in the moment or immediately after.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I think that is one of the big arguments for it. I mean, on the one hand, I always sarcastically say, you know, the good news is.

The bar is so low that there's plenty of opportunity, you know, if the bar is learn someone's name and say hello, you can do that. Um, and I'm also, you know, as I'm listening to you, I'm also listening with the head of like, someone who's very busy in production and, oh, that's time I don't have, and that's.

I'm too busy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I, I think where we are kind of in generations and in the culture and in and the land where people wanna talk about these things, it's gonna take you so much more time later, as you said, to untangle the mess that got made because you haven't taken the time to set an inclusive environment and set a culture where people could show up, be themselves, be heard.

Say the things, it's gonna be so much harder on the other side, it'd take you so much more time. So if anything, out of self-preservation, , take that moment at the [00:31:00] beginning to learn someone's name. Say hello, welcome. What are your aspirations? How can I help you? Yes. And also, you know, do a good job.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes. I'm, if we talk, use that same metaphor of working out, you just.

Icing your muscles for a day might save you from having a huge injury and a surgery later. And I'm also reminded exactly, you know, I come from a working class background, we'll say. And I remember anytime I had a slight cough, I'd be my, my dad and my mom be like, we're going to the doctor. I'm like, why?

I'm not that sick. And they were like, who's gonna pay for the hospital bill if it is something serious? We don't have money for that, but we have money for a copay that's. . That's good. Take care of it now. And we nip it in the bud and then we won't have like a huge disastrous thing later that we didn't anticipate, but we could have intervened in.

So in that same way, catch it when it's a cult before it becomes something much worse. We don't wanna have. Huge bills and other [00:32:00] issues and hurt feelings that you can't really recover from or come back from when you could have just taken those 10 seconds to say hello, 10 minutes to learn somebody's goals and motivations or you know, 10 hours to really devote to seeing everybody as full and authentic people rather than just.

little cogs or just like, you know, ponds in a chess game to be moved around in a specific place to make production happen.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. And, and I think people who work in production have been through, seen, witnessed, heard about enough disasters, you know, enough horrific circumstances that, um, that really pays to take that moment and.

Yeah. Can we, can we talk for a minute about microaggressions? I know there's a lot of talk about it now and people certainly throw the term around all the time. , oh, you're microaggression me, you know, and, uh, but also it's real and it adds up and can cause trauma over time. So could you just give a quick overview [00:33:00] of what really is a microaggression?

What does it look?

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Sure. When I think of microaggressions, we wanna think of them as everyday verbal, non-verbal or environmental, slight snubs or insults that communicate hostile or negative messages to people who are targeted and they can be unintentional or intentional. So when I think about, uh, an unintentional slight, Um, I always get the like, wow, you did a good job.

Like it's a surprise . Um, you know, that can be a slight, that might happen. That could be unintentionally trying to compliment somebody. And when there can be microaggressions for a variety of our identities, there can be gender-based microaggressions, like assuming that, for example, a woman can't carry something that's heavy and maybe making constant comments about it, or that surprise around.

Questioning if they can even do their job, if they're in a position like camera, for example, in the camera department where they cameras are a voice. Yes. And so you're just shocked when somebody can do their job Well. Um, we can have [00:34:00] microaggressions related to our race, and that could be, um, for me, I used to get this a lot since I've been talking about it, I get it a lot less, which I appreciate, which is people being like, wow, you're so articul.

As if I shouldn't be amazing and Right. They're confused. And typically microaggressions come from like a history. Um, that might focus on pressure and marginalization or just differences among people. So people having the articulate comment that comes from a history of assuming that black people specifically are less intelligent.

Um, the comment about women, it's assuming that women are less capable and it's coming from a history of women being physically limited and what they could do and what they're allowed to do. So all of these have a history to it, and you might. That was just a little thing like that doesn't really matter.

That was a throwaway comment. So being overly sensitive, but really if you get that day in and day out, it takes a toll. And a lot of the researchers who who coin [00:35:00] the term and really develop it, talk about is death by a thousand paper cuts. Because it's not just one thing that happens, it's that you get another one and another one, another one.

It turns to such a bigger wound and it becomes much harder to. At that point, again, we keep talking about these little things that add up and accumulate those stressors that really take a toll. And if you're already, for example, the only in a space. You don't feel fully comfortable. Let's say you're the only woman that's walked in a certain department.

They keep making comments about what you can and can't do, and then over time you're gonna think, well, now I just, I don't belong here. I shouldn't be here. Because you're gonna constantly get those comments and remarks that really eat away at your feeling of feeling included. Also, eat away at your psychological safety, so you're not gonna feel like you can say what you want to or need to in a.

and have that be taken well, cuz you know that people are coming in with a lot of stereotypes themselves about how you should [00:36:00] be. So it really highlights that there can be a lot of issues. And again, they could be unintentional. You could be a very, like a nice, thoughtful person and engage in a microaggression and get things wrong.

I get things wrong every day, but because I'm open to it, I can always shift and change and repair and have a conversation and move forward. And so I always want for people not to get stuck on the mistakes they make. Cuz if they're like, well, I should just give up. Because I'm gonna make a microaggression.

It's like, no, we really wanna focus on the fact that most people can recover from it. That this is not, um, an end all, be all. It's actually just a mistake that happens and you can recover from your mistakes. Not recovery is so much more important than the mistake itself,

Julie Harris Oliver: I've found. Um, since knowing you and since , having this education about microaggressions, catching myself lots of times doing it.

Then being so hard on myself about it and taking the time to apologize. And it feels like [00:37:00] why? Why do I keep making these mistakes when I certainly know better at this point? But there are so many unexamined stereotypes that we are just brought up with and indoctrinated with. It just freezes that come outta your mouth without thought.

Um, and I have a very poor filter these days, and. Just always, I, I find that catching, catching them and apologizing, like kind of heals the moment for everybody. And I've been afforded more grace than I deserve doing that. But it does feel terrible. , oh yes. I'm sure to receive them and to give them, and the, the whole thing.

But I think it's something that we just all have to keep working through until everybody just knocks it off.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. And I think about it like, uh, stepping on someone. Chew. When you're out in public, like if you're not paying attentions, you're gonna do the thing that you might naturally do, which is walk in a certain direction, step on somebody's toes.

You don't go, why are you mad at me? Stepping on you? your first reaction. Oh, dare you. Yeah. It's like, why are you being like, get over It. Just, just stepped on your [00:38:00] foot. You would instead say, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to do that, but I did it . Uh, do you need anything? Can I help? And they might say, no, it's fine.

And they're able to move on. in that moment, it becomes about not just focus on your guilt that you might have of having done it, but really focus on what does it look like to repair this? And that might just be an apology. That might also be an acknowledgement of what happened. Cuz an apology without acknowledgement, I think can feel very hollow.

So,

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm sorry. Sorry you felt that way.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. Sorry. You got offended. It's like it's your fault. It's not, that's not the example. Yeah. First thing like, so are you so sensitive? I totally messed up. That was me. Apologies. Um, this is how I messed up. I will try not to do it again in the future. I might mess up again though.

Apologies. I'm working on it. , wait for it. We're all works in progress and if you react to something with like a, my bad, like I will, I'm working on it [00:39:00] and I will try to show up for you. People are usually really thankful because typically what happens is you bring up a harm is that people get really defensive and then you're like, now I have to do five times more.

because now this person's mad at me. They're having this issue, and it takes that focus away from the harm that originally happened, which might have been a comment that was made just like stepping on somebody's foot. You, if you constantly focus on all these other things, you don't actually get to resolve the core issue.

And then after that, why would you wanna talk to somebody who's more defensive? Why would you bring anything up? You know? Yeah. The trust is lost. We worth.

Julie Harris Oliver: And also, how much more helpful would it be if the rest of us as bystanders, could you. Oh, I clocked that. Not cool. Don't say that kind of thing. and I, I think you can do it in a non-confrontational way.

It's like we don't, we don't talk like that. Not cool.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. Uh, I had a, I was working in a hospital where it was more male dominated and, but there were a lot of women providers and I had one and we'll say [00:40:00] non-male, but primarily women providers and there was one supervisor I really appreciated cuz anytime.

One of the patients said something that was sexist. She'd say, inappropriate, that's inappropriate, and then would move on and they'd be like, what? She's like, think about it. I'm just gonna name that. No more energy spent. Yeah, it's letting you know, and then she'd continue. It was like, I will still treat you with respect, but I want for you to know.

Clocked it clocked. Saw it wasn't working. So you might be in the hallway and somebody says something to me and you just might hear her walking by and say, inappropriate , move on. .

Julie Harris Oliver: It's like, objection.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes, yes. Very quickly throwing that out.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I also like speaking of the built up trauma of it all, like I, as you were talking, I was thinking of this instance.

I, I worked in sales for a long time and. Often if it was, oh, I'm gonna go see so-and-so client this afternoon. The chorus was, take one for the team, wink, wink. Mm. For years until there was a day when I finally exploded to an entire room. You may not [00:41:00] suggest I am going to get that client in a sexual manner that undermines my meeting.

It under undermines my competence and my job. Knock it off. How dare you. It took years and then my response was explosive. It wa it was not my finest moment , but it was also not anyone else's finest moment. But it, it certainly made the point. I don't know if after that behavior changed, but that's a thing that can happen.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah, I think of it just like a teapot. If you just keep putting heat underneath it and you just leave the water there, like it's going to come to the point where it starts whistling, and you have to relieve some of that pressure some way. And if somebody else would've stepped in for you and been like, oh, I think that's inappropriate.

Or like, oh, I think she'll probably get it some other way cuz she's really great at her job. Any comment would've allowed for just a little bit of that pressure to be relieved and you would've also known that you could trust other people in there to have your back and what you shared is pretty relatable [00:42:00] cuz um, it probably wouldn't have taken years for me.

Gimme a solid three weeks and got off. But in many ways you might feel like I can't say anything. You know, I'm curious about your ability to even feel like it was a safe space for you to share your experience after they constantly made those comments.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, it took until I felt like I had enough power that I could, without having, without having a lot of consequences for it.

Yeah.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. But

Julie Harris Oliver: it, yeah, it took a while. I mean, now I I would probably cut it off very quickly, but, uh, yeah, at that, at that time in my life, it was,

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: it, And I think that's the key though. Most people feel like they don't have any power, and in many roadways you may not have that power, uh, because of how things are set up.

They're, it's very hierarchical, especially the entertainment industry. And in other industries too, they just may not talk about it as much. And so you know that to some extent you [00:43:00] probably won't be allowed to without severe retaliation to say as much. And that's been deeply ingrained. So even as we're trying to shift and change it and say, let's talk about it, uh, before it turns into that big moment or that explosion, people probably aren't gonna feel safe to do that unless there is a cultural shift, which those who are in positions of power and leadership currently can do.

They could say like, come to me, I wanna hear it. Something comes up. You'll be retaliated against things like, And proving it if it does happen, it does

Julie Harris Oliver: feel like it really takes leadership at the top, setting the culture. Cuz we can say all kinds of things, um, you know, deep within the ranks, but, it, it takes one eye roll from someone with power to really undermine all of that.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Can we talk about just the concept of doing like a check-in at, at the beginning of a day there, there's a restaurant in Los [00:44:00] Angeles called Cafe Gratitude, which is. Delicious food, but also it's probably the most la thing that can happen. I think it's also, it started in San Francisco because the, the dishes are like, I am humble, I am grateful, I am loving.

And then when they bring you your food, they say, you are loving . You are grateful. And so it's very, it's very, It's very what it is. Um, yes, but they wrote a business book about like when their servers would come in to work every day. They had a practice of everybody got a 15 minute or 10 minute.

one-on-one meeting with their manager. And the purpose of that meeting was to download whatever you brought in with you that day so that it didn't interfere with your performance for the rest of the day. Hmm. And I know that some people are starting to implement that on productions, like during the safety meeting or during the thing.

Like something horrific just happened out in the world that we know is affecting people. Let's take a moment, acknowledge that. Ask if anyone needs support. [00:45:00] Gather, you know, before we get on with the rest of the day and do the work.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: I love that. . I love it so much. Again, it's creating that ritual that I mentioned previously where you can put things down and if you can acknowledge what's happening in your world, then you can have permission to say, what can I do with it?

Because if I can acknowledge that it's there, then I can say, what do I want? Do I wanna keep carrying this forward? Do I wanna put it down? Do I wanna have a further conversation about. , but you have actual options and tools other than suppression. Cuz suppression doesn't work.

Julie Harris Oliver: It does not work. It will come out at some point.

Mm-hmm. . But I think that also triggers, oh, my boss cares about me as a human. Yes. And about my wellbeing and acknowledging that I might be carrying something today that's heavy or hard.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Absolutely. It's. I think we mentioned it previously, but I wanna highlight we are all, we are all folks with different, very different amounts of stress, that we have different amounts of trauma, that we might carry different [00:46:00] experiences.

I know that my experiences, a black immigrant woman moving through the world will be different from your experience. And if you can see me in that, that allows me to actually really connect. I, I've always real, I, in that moment, I actually thought about one supervisor who I think was one of my best, like a leader and a mentor, and it was an older white guy,

I just got lunch with him. Mm-hmm. a few weeks ago to catch up, even though it's been years since we've worked together and we could not be more different. But he showed care, he asked how I was doing and he meant it. And we would just have moments to say, how are things going? With this program that you're trying to put together, how are things going with this specific thing?

And I would be like, oh, here was this issue, . I didn't know if I should talk about it, but we're here. And you asked. And just like his caring and compassionate response to me allowed me to actually do much better work than I think I ever could have to know that if I messed up that he would have my [00:47:00] back.

And it made it so that we actually had. Such a great relationship that I'm like, oh yeah, that's one of the best mentors to this day, and I. A short list of people that I really keep in contact with, um, that I really carry forward as true mentors. And those folks are always the ones who saw me for me, like actually asked me how I was checked in about things, showed up for me in different ways.

And it didn't have to be big, it's just taking one minute out of their day to show that they cared. Yeah. So I know that goes a long. Especially when you're in a stressful situation where you're like, we don't have time. There's constant urgency. I can't be myself. I can't show up. I have to do this. And somebody says, let's slow down.

Just take two minutes. Let's take 10 15. It shows that you're really important.

Julie Harris Oliver: I, I think it's not as hard as people are afraid that it is, and I think perhaps people are afraid of asking a question that they perceive may get them into a situation then that they don't know how to deal. Or care for [00:48:00] sure because these, because problem solvers, you know, when faced with a situation they don't know how to solve, uh, I think that can be really challenging.

Yeah. But you're saying that the asking of the question is the important part.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: If you told me, I don't know how to solve that for you, but that sounds tough. I might know somebody else. Let's think about it. Who else can support you? Cuz I maybe can't. That is, um, Shows a vulner, a level of vulnerability and a level of care.

That goes a long way because a, again, we're just all floundering in our own ways. to make it work, and try and make it

Julie Harris Oliver: work so we're all floundering. Yeah, there's the, there's the tweet . We're all, we're all floundering

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: and we're just trying to do our best. And if you can say, I'm doing my best, my best may not have it today for you, but let's think about it.

I want to be able to be supportive and even. one supervisor who I mentioned is one that I, I carry. So, um, with [00:49:00] such high regard, he didn't fix all my problems. , he didn't know. There were some things where he was like, I have no idea. I'd bring in like, I experienced this thing about racism and sexism, and he was like, wow, I didn't even realize how much I didn't know.

And I appreciate you bringing this in. I don't necessarily have a solution, but I, if you want to talk about it, I'll be here if you want to. Brainstorms, I'll be here. And I was like, no, I just wanted somebody to listen and that was enough. So it's really important to think like, what is the next smallest thing you can do?

And if it's listening, being an empathetic ear, acknowledging that you may not have all the answers so that they know like, I'm just a person like you, figuring it out. Struggling in the world and making it work.

Julie Harris Oliver: And can we add to that, the short list of what not to do, which is, are you sure that was racism?

Are you sure they meant that? Are you sure that was sexism? Yes, I know that guy, he wouldn't have,

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: that goes back to that defensiveness cuz it's like I need to defend my point of view, or this [00:50:00] person or this idea. And if you just went in and say, wow, that sounds tough. I don't need to agree with what happened, , I don't need to.

Say, this person is so great, but, or actually, um, actually there's this whole othering . You can just say, that sounds tough. Let's just leave it there. Validate that experience, like that was rough. I don't know what to say other than that. Or I don't have more to give you. I will be thinking about how I can support you, cuz that sounds.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I, I think the impulse to do that, especially amongst white people here, let me speak for all white people, , um, is the, the conditioning that we've had and because of all the media representation to see white people is particularly nuanced and everybody's different and everybody has different motivation.

Where as the same conditioning is to see, um, black people as a monolith, see people of color as a monolith, see gay people as a mono. Where you can ascribe motivation to [00:51:00] whatever, whatever their behavior is, because we're, we're not conditioned to see the nuance between people. And I think that's where the empathy part comes in and just the, the conscious application of empathy and seeing people is people.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. And I should say that doesn't mean we erase the fact that we have different experiences, cuz that can always Yes. Swinging into the like color of races. Like I don't see color, we're all humans , so we wanna have what?

Julie Harris Oliver: There's a human race. That's it. Yes. ,

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: I wanna say that is trying to nicer way out of racism by not acknowledging Right, right, right.

And all of this, what we're doing, cuz what you're highlighting is that acknowledg. Saying like, oh, there might be other reasons. Like if I come in with a bit of an attitude, don't just assume I'm an angry black woman. Maybe assume that maybe, right? I, there was traffic that I might be having some family stuff going on.

Assume all of these other things, or ask what's going on in an open way.

Julie Harris Oliver: You may have dealt with some BS walking in the door.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes. Yes, [00:52:00] maybe I was, and I'm somebody where I'm like, I'm running late and then this thing happened and this, and I will just ruminate. I will just be steaming. And I'm like, I can't believe so said that.

And of course I'm gonna bring that in and you might see my face and think, Ooh, she seems so aggressive, which would be a micro, she's quickly. Yes. Rather than being like, Ooh, is she having a bad day? Let me check in. Are you okay? Like, what's happening? I, I just saw, I just saw your face and I'm like, yeah, I'm having a moment.

And then once I talk about it, I can be done with that moment, . Right. We can show up.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. I know we are running out of time. Is there anything that I should have asked you that I didn't ask you? Any little nugget you had saved up?

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: What a delightful question. I love that. Um, I think the only nugget I want to add in, there's no one solution, so I want for people to, that's a bummer.

Yes, . It's one of [00:53:00] those like many gifts of living and one of those like many curses at the same time. It's very much a catch 22. You might do everything right, everything we've said, your version of right, and there might still be issue. The metaphorical crap might still hit the fan, and you're like, I bet I did it, but I listened.

But I did exactly what Dr. T said. I'm doing it right. Yes. So I would say, don't get discouraged. Every situation is different. All of the needs are different, and you can just pivot and adapt. Just so we mentioned, maybe that costume might be off, maybe that wig is not looking correct. You can still pivot.

Have a great shoot and move on. in the same way when we're doing these interactions, when we're having these conversations, when we're potentially messing up and learning from it and growing, it's all about pivoting and knowing that there will be 50 different ways to get to one solution, which is having an inclusive, thoughtful, empathetic space.

So figure out what works for people there. I love consent. I love asking, what would [00:54:00] you need? Because for example, me from Jersey, I'm like, tell me things. I don't really care about X, Y, and Z. Don't make me figure it out. Yes. If you're like, Ooh, she has a look on her face, ask me directly. I will tell you. Um, but leave space for me to be the most Jersey version of myself,

That'll be great. And then I can come back. But somebody else might need something slightly different. And rather than seeing that as like a burden, see that as like, This is one of the fun parts of work, which is let's bring all these things together and still have something wonderful at the end of it.

So I wanna leave folks with, . It's hard work. It's ongoing work. It's fun work too.

Julie Harris Oliver: And let's try to create spaces where we allow each other some grace to get there.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes, yes. Lots of grace. As you mentioned, you've got received a lot of it. You've gotten what you've needed. I've also received a lot of grace and openness and I'm so thankful when that happens.

And I've also, you know, put in that work so I can get [00:55:00] that grace to some extent by naming. I'm not gonna get it right all the time. Call me into a conversation. Let's connect. And people are so open, um, people's tendencies to give grace oftentimes if you come with a degree of openness to it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Love it. Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque, thank you so much for being with us.

Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Thank you for having me. It's been such a pleasure.

Julie Harris Oliver: Where can people find you?

Ooh, people can find me on the internet. Um, so I have my website, values intersecting action.com. I also have, um, you know, I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram, Dr. T Tele, um, and also Dr t teak@gmail.com.

So if people wanna send me a quick email, have inquiries connect with me, you can. Um, I have a unique name which helps. There's not very many Tanisha Teles out in the. So feel free to connect in whatever way makes sense for you.

Great. Okay. Thanks so

much. Thank you. Bye.

You've been listening to the [00:56:00] other 50% of Herstory of Hollywood.

I'm Julie Harris Oliver, thank you to Dr. Tanisha Tele for sharing her expertise. You should immediately go and follow her on social media. And special thanks to Jay Rowe, Danny Rosner and Allison McQuaid. For the music, go check out the Catcher Break Podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry.

Thanks for listening. See you next time.

EP 224: Dr. Kira Banks

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] You're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. Today we are kicking off our series of talking with experts who work in various aspects of diversity, equity, and inclusion across industries and in the entertainment industry specifically. First up is Dr. Kira Banks. Dr.

Banks's decades of experience allow her to make complex and controversial topics accessible in schools, communities, institutions of higher education and corporations. She co-founded the Institute for Healing Justice and Equity at St. Louis University, where she has a professor in the Department of Psychology.

In addition, she has published over 20 articles in peer reviewed. And she has contributed to the Harvard Business Review, the Atlantic and the Guardian. She received her BA from Mount Holyoke College where she graduated Phi Beta Kappa and her MA and PhD are from the University of Michigan. Today, Dr.

Banks has a podcast raising equity to support adults in talking to kids about systems of oppression. [00:01:00] She's also a co-principal of the Mouse and the elephant, which develops customized curriculum to meet organizations' long-term needs. On a personal note, I have learned a tremendous amount from Dr. Banks and I am thrilled she agreed to do this podcast, and I'm so excited for you to get to meet her and hear what she has to say here.

Have a listen.

Okay. Hi, Dr. Kira Banks.

Dr. Kira Banks: Hi. How are you doing? I'm well. How are you? I'm doing all right. I am doing all right. That's always a loaded question nowadays. And yet I know , I'm hanging in there. Lots of transitions, uh, with the kids and work and life and so I'm just, I'm trying to be present in the moment and soak it in cuz things are gonna change Exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: These days it's like, well the, there's so much really to answer there, so fine. That's fine, right? The second, yeah. So I just wanna jump right in. Typically, I just say to people, you know, what do you do to, [00:02:00] to hear where they are, you know, in the business. Cuz typically, I, I interview women who are in the business.

Um, and I know you are a professor, you are in organizations, you do consulting, speaking, writing, you do all the things. But maybe, uh, you could describe in your words how you think about what you.

Dr. Kira Banks: So broadly, I'm a psychologist. I'm a clinical psychologist by training, which means I do clinical work, but I actually don't have a private practice.

I haven't for some years cuz it takes a lot of time and energy and I feel like that's, you know, you gotta honor your patients and your clients. And so I am a professor where I train other students to be clinicians in our doctoral program. I also. Graduate and undergraduate, and I do research on how discrimination impacts mental health.

I also started an institute for Healing Justice and Equity at St. Louis University with some colleagues that's like across disciplines. So basically what does it mean for us to think about how we heal? From injustices and how do we stop them? So [00:03:00] that's been broadly the, the big part of my work has, has taken those two tracks.

It's one, understanding how do we support people when they're in oppressive systems and environments. And two, how do we stop those environments? From being oppressive, cuz that would be the easiest way to support people, right? .

Julie Harris Oliver: Right. Just knock it off everybody. Just stop. , just stop. And I've seen you work with productions and an entertainment, but you work across all kinds of organizations, don't you?

Dr. Kira Banks: I do, I work across all sorts of industries.

Julie Harris Oliver: How do you find the entertainment industry compares across everything else? Like entertainment is such a weird niche with such a specific culture. Like how, how does it compare in the general world? So

Dr. Kira Banks: in some ways it's not that different, and I hate to say this cuz every industry thinks that they're special, but it's similar dynamic.

And it's, it's really, it's kind of like, you know, everyone's life and lived experience is different, [00:04:00] and yet there are some similarities. And so maybe it's the clinical psychologist in me that can see those connections. Mm. But I really don't think that the industry is all that different from some of the other industries I've worked in.

So, for example, it's one of those industries where it's extremely important. Like who you. And to know people to be able to get in. And so that sort of, um, kind of, you know, very networked focused. Um, in some ways nepotism is a really common variable exists in other industries. Uh, the other thing that I'd say that.

That's pretty common in the entertainment industry is this like feeling of being really proud of like the content and creativity and the innovation and of the, of the industry. Like to create the content that people watch, that people love, that you can't find in any other industry, however, that sort of.

The creativity, the innovation, the pride and the [00:05:00] product that that's common across industries. And so in some ways there's not that much difference. But I will say one of the things that I think is unique, that also present other places is that after George Floyd's murder, I saw the biggest increase in wanting to understand what we can.

why this is happening in our industry within the entertainment industry. Oh, that's interesting cause

Julie Harris Oliver: I, cuz it does feel like there was kind of an uptick in the nation, right? We need to have this conversation. I, I do think there's something about entertainment at its core. It's very much known for or suspected to be this liberal enclave of people who are trying to tell stories and understand the human condition and make art at the same time as it's sitting within a really entrenched power.

right? That is kind of at odds with the, let's understand the human condition and tell everyone's story and have a really [00:06:00] equitable space. So it makes sense to me that people would be really wanting to understand it. So it feels like the last couple years have really been, like we joked about it, the Hearts and Minds tour, where everyone wants to really talk about it and understand it and dig into what it is and what the stories.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah, I, I, and here's the thing. I, this is where I think it's common because I see the same sort of dynamic in some of the financial industries I work in, right? You have people who they're not making art in the same way, so they're not creatives in the same way. But they feel like some of them in, especially like in the philanthropy world and the foundation world, like they wanna do good.

They want to leverage what they have to offer the world to help people, to inspire people to. Right. This kind of, this kind of very altruistic perspective, and yet there's a lot of racism that's embedded in those systems. [00:07:00] The financial system, our philanthropic organizations. Um, our nonprofits, right? And so it's, it's this balance.

Actually, Dolly Chug talked about this in her book. The Person You mean to Be, that people want to think about themselves as good people. , but that if we have oppressive systems happening, you can be a good person inside an oppressive system. Like those things can coexist. And I think what happened post George Floyd is so many people were realizing this is not just about someone being good or bad.

There's some patterns happening. And so what I do think was unique, yes, there was an an uptick in some people call it a reckoning, all across the. I saw it hit the entertainment, entertainment industry hard because they saw themselves as such good people and they were wedded to this idea that we, like you said, we are creatives.

We create art for everyone. We see the story in so many people and see the [00:08:00] universality of people and story in the theater world in particular. It's often known as like the place where people who were kind of misfits or, uh, you know, kind of on the fringe might be accepted, and yet they were being told really clearly that they have a problem.

And it was this, I do think it was, is it hurt them, it hurt their feelings, it hurt their sense of self. It kind of, it broke up their idea of themselves as good people. If the systems that they were creating and recreating and perpetuating were part of the problem, which they have been, but being aware of that, I think that awareness was low, and the ability to see oneself as separate and a good person from the systems, we allowed that because of how we conceptualized the problem.

To me that was the biggest shift post George Floyd, is that [00:09:00] everyone had been on a Hearts and Minds tour, and at least from my perspective, and the people that I know who were in kind of the equity, diversity, inclusion, belonging justice world have been clear and remain clear. That it is not about hearts and minds, that it is changing the system.

It is changing the dynamics. It's changing what I call the built landscape of how we set things up. That's what we need to do, not focus on hearts and minds and are you a good person or a bad person? Is that person a good person or a bad person? Our focus had been wrong and in a way you could say actually that focus.

Help maintain the status quo, because if we're only worried about who's good or bad, we miss the bigger question around how the, the water we're swimming in, the way that we set things up is set up to continue to be inequitable. And so I saw that as the biggest shift, um, across industries. But in particular, there was a zest for it within the entertainment industry that had not been there before.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, I think all of that is true and it, [00:10:00] it felt like, , like step one was learning the language. Like, okay, starting to understand that we're in a system. Also, the awareness of that production and entertainment, these are the things that shape the culture at large. And so there is a responsibility to figure it out and to do it right, and so we need to have the language in order to do that, which I think was is so much of the learning journey.

Along with the unlearning of how the industry has been for the last 150 years, what surprised you the most coming into it with entertainment? Was anything like, Ooh, I didn't expect that. Hmm.

Dr. Kira Banks: So I've been doing this work for now, I can say over 25 years. Cause I used to be like, over 20 years now we're here over 25

Um, nothing was a huge surprise. So what's also similar is that things move slowly as much as things can also move quickly when they want. , but things around setting up more equitable inclusive environments. Like there's a lot [00:11:00] of, there's sometimes some, either some pushback or some, um, you know, oh, we're too busy for that.

It's hard to fit it in. And so there was a part of me that was gonna say the desire to just keep things the way they are and say like, well, but we, we do such great work. But that is actually, it's not a surprise because I see that. So many different industries of, of like this feeling that if we critique it too hard that we're again saying that we're bad people or that we did it on purpose, or that if we are too honest about what's broken, that it'll look, it'll, it'll taint our hundreds of years of history or the accolades that we've gotten.

So this like desire to, to not want to name. Broken and not working, but that's not specific to the industry. What do you think?

Julie Harris Oliver: on the one hand, as humans, if you have all the evidence in the world that what you have been doing has [00:12:00] resulted in success in the accolades and the Emmys and the Oscars and the prizes and the money and all of that, and you have a perception of yourself as being a real good person.

It doesn't surprise me at all that people really wanted to talk about it and really wanted to understand it, and really wanted to put language around. And then I've noticed then when you get to the point of, okay, you get it, you have the words to use now, now we have a plan of what we can actually do.

Suddenly that is really hard and really impossible and really risky, and you don't understand my business and you don't understand what you're asking me to do. And oh my God, this is, we, we need to talk about it some more.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah. Because we don't wanna let go of the way things are, and that's why I say it's, yeah, it didn't feel that different because.

Basically the journey started with people wanting to be heard. So black folks in particular, folks of color were like, we just told you what was going on last week, last month, last year in that climate survey, or this focus group, but for some reason, you're willing to listen more now, and so we'll, okay, we'll [00:13:00] tell you again.

Some were, some were like, forget you. You're not serious. You're just saying that you, you know, you're just performing performative. Right? But those who are willing to engage in that moment, were like, okay, we'll tell you for the hundredth time. What the problem is. And then it really was a matter of like, all right, so what are you gonna do about it?

So you're, you're comment around like having actions match, match words. It's a big one. And yet that is not industry specific. And so, There's this push and pull, like I think that's part of why I was able to step into the, the consultative role with different media organizations and Broadway productions, because I've seen this process of like awakening awareness, understanding analysis, and then working to create some new behaviors and action.

I've seen it across so many different sectors that what was clear is that, now, don't get me wrong, there have been people who've been doing this work in the [00:14:00] industry for decades, right? Like there are folks who have been veterans and there was this, this moment, this window where people were willing to do some deeper analysis.

And like you said, some folks were even willing and able to get to a plan of action. But then you've gotta do things differently. And if they've had success monetarily and in terms of like accolades in the industry in the past, they're thinking, why do I need to change anything? They're really like, even though they're hearing the stories anew, they don't realize the the, the cost.

But I think about what's happening in, um, east Palestine, Ohio right now, right? With the chemical explosion in the spill and how. You know, we can talk about how we care about humans and we care about people, but then if this major humanitarian event is happening and we're not making sure people are being evacuated or getting clean water to not just drink but bathe themselves in, right?

Our [00:15:00] actions don't match our words. Or when we hear the young woman who was in the Sandy Hook shooting and in the Michigan State shooting, and she's like, alright. Enough already. This is my second mass shooting. I literally have physical and psychological injuries. Can we stop with the thoughts and prayers?

Can we do something? It almost feels like we're not tired enough yet. We're not willing to do something different, to get a different outcome, but we wanna say that we care about people or we wanna say that we C right, but we're still able to make. Insert company industry that's still making money despite these massive events where people are harmed or we're still willing to tolerate, you know, not having legislation that prevents the sort of mass shootings that we continuously see.

So I don't know if you see a connection there, but I really do think about how, like we're saying one thing, but it's hard to do another. And so in that way, the entertainment industry is just like any other.

Julie Harris Oliver: We're also sitting [00:16:00] in this culture. I think it's particularly American, where our policies are definitely not people first in any, in healthcare, in business, in environmental.

It's not people first. And there are, there are other places I've traveled to recently where it did seem people first. I was like, what a refreshing difference. And you're not crazy for thinking the people should be thought about here, but I think sitting in that, Context is really hard, and if you're in an industry that's been so successful, I don't know how much people believe the business case that you're going to be even more successful.

I think more people are afraid of, well, I'm gonna get canceled, or I'm going to have a big scandal around myself if I don't sort this out, or I need to do enough not to be on anybody's radar. I think there's much more fear driven. rather than a real believe. I mean, there's, there's a whole spectrum, as you know, in, in entertainment.

There's people who have been doing the work for 20 years and what took everybody so long, and this is just how I operate and I'm gonna continue to [00:17:00] operate that way. On the other end is you don't know what you're talking about. You're introducing risk. There are no people who can do this work except me and my bros.

Um, and you know, there's everybody in between. And so even when very successful people are saying, not only are you going to be more successful if you do this, But you're also not going to continue to be successful without doing this work. I don't know if people totally believe it. until they've had some experience of not being successful.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah, and I mean, you named it like the way that we've set up our system. I mean, with capitalism inherently it's not people first, and so we shouldn't really be surprised that we're not thinking about people and, and yet there was that window where we were all at home. Not all. I should not say that at all.

That's a very privileged perspective where many of us were at home and had the time and. And attention to focus on this murder, and we realized what's happening. And it's not that, what's not an anomaly. And so that like [00:18:00] to me, reminds me how connected we are as humans, and yet we have quickly gotten back to business as usual.

Julie Harris Oliver: So I wanna dig into like all the different pieces before we go to the, where do we go from here? I know one of the things that certainly working with people who work in production, producers and the type of people who are running the business of production, very much action oriented. Let me get through my checklist.

I'm gonna do a million things. If you want this d e I stuff on my list, fine. Put it on my list and I'll do it. The thing they wanna do is very quickly hire a bunch of people that check all the boxes so they can say, look, I did it. I have a diverse crew set. Without necessarily wanting to do the other work around it.

And I, I love the way that you talk about it in, in a way that it's so much more nuanced than that and you have to do so much more work rather than just hire people and shove them into the system. . That's kind of terrible [00:19:00] over all kinds of people. I mean, it really just doesn't solve the larger issue, right?

Dr. Kira Banks: So representation is a thing. I'm not saying it doesn't matter. You'll see people wear shirts, representation matters. Absolutely not arguing that. And you can bring people in and if you don't allow them to share their lived experience or their perspective, You actually don't benefit from them being in the room and being a representative.

You haven't let them fully be represented. You just have checked the box that they exist in the space. And so that's why it's so much more than that. Like if we even think about it, you can, you think about it from a different few of the different perspectives, but Right, like it, I have one of my consulting firms is the mouse and the elephant, and we often use that analogy to help people think about like if the elephants are running things cuz like they're elephants, they get to take up.

Right. And they're like, sure, mice come on in. But like shift nothing. Can the mice really access anything in this elephant world? Oh, but we let you in. But yeah, you're like [00:20:00] trampling me and I can't reach anything and nothing is sized right for me. And they're like, oh, well stop complaining. We let you in.

Yeah, right. It's like this whole thing around. Understanding that representation is the beginning and actually sometimes isn't the first thing that needs to happen. Like first you gotta reflect on how is this environment shaped? Who is it benefiting? Who is it set up for? Are we ready to say that we. want to be and can be inclusive of other ways of being.

And then if we are, then bring people in. Cuz otherwise it becomes a revolving door. And you get to say, oh well we had, we had someone who was a woman in this department and they just didn't work well. Like, yeah, cuz between the jokes that you made and, and the places where you went to like build team culture.

She didn't wanna go. She didn't wanna stay, so it's not really on her. You didn't have to suffer and do things that were [00:21:00] outside of, you know, your comfort zone to like live here in this space. And so why do we expect that folks who are in those kind of mice positions have to like change themselves and assimilate to succeed rather than thinking about how we really can make this a place that multiple people have access to opportunities and development opportu.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think that is a shift that's blindsiding a lot of people. Cause I, there's a whole generation who came through and I paid my dues. I shut up, I listened, I figured it out. I didn't ask for anything until I got to the top and, and now it's my turn to treat everybody behind me horribly. Also, at the same time, we're having this racial equity conversation.

There's also a generational shift happening where Gen Z and millennials are coming in and they're really not having. So the whole kind of militaristic, top-down direction and control culture that production has had forever is also being asked to change [00:22:00] at the same time. I think it all works together and if we can do it, what a world this will be.

But I think it's addressing all the parts about the culture in general in product.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah, cuz it's not just about race, it's not just about gender, it's not even just about class or status. It's about all of those things. It's about seeing humanity in people. I was just reading, listen actually, I think I was listening to a study that was talking about like a news study that was talking about how, um, You know, the generational differences, cuz sometimes we overblow generational differences.

They're, they get overblown, like, oh, okay, boomer or Gen X. Right? But what is different is that, like historically when boomers and, and other folks were growing up, Like they might be able to live on the wage that they were getting, doing whatever in a production, even with a union or not, but that they were able to like make [00:23:00] due.

So that whole thing of like, I did my job, I shut up, I put my head down. Nowadays there was a study that was saying like if you took the salary of what someone was making like in the eighties, cuz they're like, well, I bought a house and I was able to do whatever and you took it to, today it's like $115 an hour that people would have to.

something egregious like that. And so like we shouldn't be surprised in the system that we have that no, they're not willing to just shut up and take it cuz they gotta work five other jobs to live. So it's not just about them being entitled, it's them trying to have a life and to be valued as a human being.

And so I think your point, one of the things we try to articulate is that, yes, racial equity is important and we often sidestep the conversation and don't wanna talk about. , but this is about like seeing the humanity in people, period. And it's not always just about race. It often isn't. Cuz someone who has a race also has a gender sexual orientation, a class background, a religious background, and all of those things matter.

So this whole idea that [00:24:00] like, well I just put my head down and you know, was okay. Those were pretty homogenous workplaces and it was a different society in terms of like what you needed to live.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, that, that reminds me of when, uh, people now are saying, well, I worked my way through college busing tables.

Like what's the problem with kids these days? Like the problem with kids tuition's $80,000 a year. What are you talking about?

Dr. Kira Banks: Right. And again, this is why people have to understand the built landscape and how we set things up as a country. We have, we have in a way, Created this, this and allowed the expansion of loans that allow people, I shouldn't even to say allow, but give people access to college, but at the same time hamper them with debt.

So it's like this double edge thing. And so, yeah, you worked your way through college, but like you said, college was not as expensive. Uh, I had a colleague once say that that was the next bubble that was gonna burst, like when we had the housing bubble burst. And was it like, oh. Early two thousands, oh nine or something like [00:25:00] that.

But, uh, it never did. It just keeps expanding. So expensive.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's unbelievable. I mean, sidebar, I was having a, I one daughter who's graduating college this year, and when she was applying, we sat down with a financial aid officer at some college and, and we were looking at the whole thing and I said, are you really encouraging 17 year olds to acquire $250,000 of debt?

And he was like, I was like, you're insane. That's, it's not, anyway, I could go on about our inequitable college system for hours. I'm sure you can't do, you're right in the middle of it too, right?

Dr. Kira Banks: Uh, yes, yes, we are. We are. But that I think is connected to the industry in that. What I learned. Okay. You asked What surprised me.

I didn't realize how many people were either unpaid or like barely paid. Yeah. Like to get an opportunity to even have proximity, whether it was a production assistant or an intern, whatever it was called. I didn't realize how many people were like just there to like say that they were there because it mattered so much that you were there [00:26:00] in a part of that production or next to this person and oh my goodness, to live in LA or New York or wherever the shoot is happening and have the money to like do that or to take out the loans to do that on either nothing or so little.

That did surprise. . I was like, what are we doing?

Julie Harris Oliver: What are we doing? And then there's all the, all the blow back about Nepo babies. It's like, what do you expect about what Nepo

Dr. Kira Banks: babies, people who are born because of nepotism or like they got the job cuz of it. People who got the

Julie Harris Oliver: job. Like there's so many actors that you don't realize are the children of famous actors and now everybody's being revealed as, and they're calling them the nepo.

Like the, that worked so hard to get where they are. And then you realize, you know, their dad is a famous movie star. They may have had a leg up.

Dr. Kira Banks: Right. So that I will have to, I take that back. That surprised me. I was very surprised at how many positions. We're available like that and they're like, oh [00:27:00] yeah, you can just, we'll, we'll take an intern.

Like, well, okay, so how are they gonna pay for their food, their lodging, their transportation? So we're perpetuating this inequity, cuz you can only do that if you can afford it.

Julie Harris Oliver: They even passed law in California. You can't have unpaid internships and people still do it. Really? They're companies that run on paying people $50 a day.

What? Until they work their way up. I dunno why I'm whispering, but that's egregious . Cause it's shocking. Oh my goodness. Leah, why are you gonna give up your very cheaper, free labor of kids who are super eager and it's their dream and they're gonna work really hard?

Dr. Kira Banks: So rather than me trying to convince someone that that is inhumane, because I get that not everyone sees it as that they talk.

That's how they came up, all those arguments. How about we just need people in who, who are in positions of power to say like, we're not doing that anymore. So whether it's through following the legislation at the state level or through enacting something, I'm talking to people who have some power [00:28:00] just to be like, if you really think that's awful and you're in a position to make sure that internships get subsidized or people get paid a living wage, whatever that living wage is for your city, not just a generic living wage, make it happen.

Make it a policy. People are gonna be happy, but that can be your legacy rather than sitting around being like, oh, that we shouldn't do that. That's unfortunate that that's the way it. Do something, make it happen.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and the funny thing is, is that in pockets people have done something powerful. People have said, we're gonna pay PAs a decent wage.

We're gonna pay the interns, we're going to pay them, you know, double what they used to make. The budgets don't collapse, the show doesn't collapse, it's fine. Like it can so be done. It's not if, if, if what you're saving on not paying the least paid people a little bit more, if that's gonna crash your whole.

then there's something really unstable about it. It's, it's one of the myths actually. Yes. Which, which leads us to the other myths, , because I know that we, we talk about myths all the time, and that's what people come [00:29:00] back with in the arguments of, we can't do this work because, or of course I want to, but things like it's a merit-based system and you have to work very hard and you can't ask me to hire people who are unqualified because I have to hire the most qualified people in the.

The fact that they all look exactly like me. I can't help that, but I'm hiring solely based on merit. What do you say to that?

Dr. Kira Banks: I'd say oftentimes it's not, that's not the case. Like when you dig, it's often because someone knows someone or because someone went to the particular college that you have a pipeline from, and so you know, they're meritorious people that didn't go to like one of two.

I'm not gonna knock the schools cuz it's not the school's fault, but Right. Like we end up privileging people from certain institutions. We end up privileging people who know someone who knows someone. And so what it is, is that you feel like, you, like, you feel like, you know it's a known quantity and that it's not a risk.

Right. So I, I think it, I think [00:30:00] I push people to be more honest with what they're saying. That you can't necessarily say you're hiring the best, it's, you're hiring what feels most comfortable to you. and oftentimes it's cuz, oh, I know someone who came from that program, or I know someone who worked with that person.

And so that can be part of the what's in the mix. But also you also have to think about like what's the, what's the heterogeneity on your team? And not just in terms of race even, but like experience. Because if you have a homogenous team in any way, Like what's the use? If everyone's the same comes from the same school with the same background, out of the same, oh, it's really gonna be easy for you to lead that team and make them do what you want them to do cuz they think the same as you.

Then I, I challenge that you're really trying to be innovative and creative and if you can own that. Yeah, I'm not, I just wanna be safe and not take risks and. , you know? And fast. Fast. And don't forget fast, right? And do what I wanna do. At least be honest about it. [00:31:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: You know, John Amici posted something the other day on Twitter.

when he's called in to consult with a business or a board or something. Did you see this one where he, if he looks around and the board all looks exactly the same, he'll be like, what are the chances that the best brains in this industry all come in? A guy that looks exactly like you, , that's amazing. The odds.

Dr. Kira Banks: right? And so then that really pushes people to think about like, what is it that's making me not be able to see talent that comes in a different package? And that's where I really push folks. I'm, I'm, I'm all about systems perspective, but when we, uh, wait, when I work with folks who are in leadership positions, I really push them thinking about their own background, their own identities, their own stuff, where they.

Educated what they value. Because what we don't often realize is how we perpetuate that in our choices. That it's not always that we're against someone who's different from us. It's often that we're just a big [00:32:00] cheerleader for people who are like us, cuz we, it's a known quantity, they're in our group.

Julie Harris Oliver: I also wonder if there's any subconscious fear around if, if it's not actually a merit based system and I'm in this position of power, what does that say about me?

Like, does that, does. You know, rock people's worlds a little bit,

Dr. Kira Banks: probably. I don't know. Probably. And then we get defensive and we're like, but of course I, I, I deserve to belong here. Right, right. So then, yeah, I mean, I'm, for some people I think that is what's at play like, and that's where I say, you know, this is not, this, the move to think about equity and inclusion is not saying, you know, we don't need any more white men.

It's not what it's about. Like that we right it. There, there, there are plenty of white men and there will continue to be, it's a matter of limiting our view of what's possible, what's talented, what's, what's leadership potential to only being white men. And so, yeah, in a way. that's more competition, quote unquote competition.

But if we're, if we're serious about access [00:33:00] and opportunity, then that's what we need to be thinking about. Like not looking at the same package, whether it's race or gender or sexualization or religion, background, pedigree, all of that. And I think there's, I think there's power in, in that and just realizing that we want to think about how, well, what, how do I, how would I.

I think too often people get defensive personally and they think about like, what will I lose? Rather than a perspective of if I create an environment and a space where everyone has access and opportunity, it's actually a safer place for all of us. Yeah,

Julie Harris Oliver: it's the getting them. To that point, I think is the trick.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah. It's almost, and I use, I use this example a lot in my trainings, but like I work at an institution that's over 200 years old. It's a Catholic institution. It's not trying to not be Catholic, but it does realize that to stay relevant, it has to be inclusive of other religions and faith traditions.

Right? And so it's not like [00:34:00] throwing away its catholicness, it's how does it intentionally include other faith traditions? And so in that same way, it's not. , like saying, oh, there's so many white men. So like, it's like, let's not include them. No. It's like that's the dominant culture here. How do we intentionally include other identities, other races, genders, sexual orientations, religions, D ability, disabilities.

And so I, I do think people get it wrong. They get defensive and they get a scarcity mentality rather than, it's a scarcity.

Julie Harris Oliver: I was just gonna say, There's not enough room for everybody. Like in the biggest production boom we've ever had that there's not enough room. When you're desperate, this is what I always get on, you're desperate to find an accountant cuz there aren't any, to still have that scarcity mindset is such an, yeah, such a, a weird thing to be on to.

Yeah. I think the other thing, um, One of the other myths is that, um, I would love to hire more black people, more women, more [00:35:00] people with disability. They, none of them exist, so they haven't been in the industry. They don't have any experience. Uh, therefore you're asking me to hire unqualified people and do, uh, introduce a bunch of risk to my production.

Those are kind of two myths smashed together, but they're often said in the same breath. What do you say to that?

Dr. Kira Banks: They exist. You're just not looking at the right place. It's, they're just not in your circle. Yeah. You just don't know them. You just don't know them. The number might be smaller probably just cuz like proportionally.

So let's say black folks who are like, what, 13% of the population? Dunno. My latest census data. Um, and in terms of like my feel as a professor, were 4% of the, of the professorate. So do we exist? Yeah. But numerically there just aren't as many. Because we are a smaller number of the percent of the population and then of that population, a very small percentage of us are in the, in the academy, similar to the industry.

And this is where I say like, there's so many similarities because [00:36:00] yeah, the base number is small. The base rate's small. There are. Probably very few account, you know, production accountants of color. But I bet you they exist. And if they don't, I bet you there's some really top-notch accountants that, that are of color that might wanna make the leap into the production world.

And so then that's where they say, oh, well, they're unqualified. Well, it's like, yeah. . But if you're desperate for an accountant, who are you gonna hire? Someone who's like, you weren't, you weren't gonna get the person who like is the top at the top, cuz you, you're, you're scrambling for an accountant. So if you have someone who is a good accountant and has the interest to get into the industry, that's not someone who's unqualified.

That's just someone who hasn't had a door open in the industry.

Julie Harris Oliver: I also like how you talk about the risk of it all.

Dr. Kira Banks: Well, before I get to the risk of it all, you ask that question around like, where are. I also think we have to look at. Tendency to push folks of color in particular into niche productions.

Yeah. Right. So I mean, it's part of why like the [00:37:00] Tyler Perry's of the world, I know there's only one Tyler Perry, but you just work with me. You know? Yeah. Folks like that who have like started their own production companies or started their own, you know, like, because. , they kept getting over a look, right?

And, and often we're only seen in a very narrow way. And so they weren't getting the experiences, the opportunities, getting to tell the stories that they wanted. And so when we have folks who are folks of color and we assume that they can only work on that show that it's about folks of color. But if we look at the, like universe of shows that that is only a small, very small piece of the pie, then we have actually created the problem that we don't have enough folks of color and to, to like, to go around in a sense that fan's very tokenizing and commoditizing, but like this idea that we are in the industry might be perpetuating the problem because we, we are, we don't see, let's put 'em on some mainstream.

We're like, well, let's put 'em in this niche show. Well, so then they don't have the same [00:38:00] experience, and so then you wanna compare them and say, oh, well, yeah. They, they haven't dealt with as, as big of a budget again, because access and opportunity doors were not open.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. It's, it's like looking at white and male as.

I mean, it's the same with anything. Looking at the white male as the standard human, everyone else's other, oh, a white costumer can work on any particular type of show. The black costume has to work on the black show. The, the woman can write the story as long as it's about, as long as it's about her personal trauma, you know?

Or a woman can direct it, but it better be a love story, like those who, those myth that I think perpetuate and limit opportunity. . Whereas why can't a costumer work on any show there is regardless of who they are.

Dr. Kira Banks: But that, I think when we think about like the risk, sometimes I push back to say, well, is it really a risk?

Right? So if, if we look at this person's experience, you know, is it really a risk? Or we just framing [00:39:00] it as such because they, again, like they had to, they not had to, but they had the opportunity to work on this niche show rather than this bigger show. So if you're giving this opportunity to work with this bigger show, they have the.

Julie Harris Oliver: And they've done it for less money, right? So now if they're getting more money, more support, a bigger department, chances are they're gonna be fine.

Dr. Kira Banks: And let's be real. Like we take a risk anytime we hire someone. It's a risk, it's an unknown quantity in a sense, but, oh, this is why people like to take their entourage everywhere with them because it's not a risk and it's a known quantity, right?

So I get, I get. . And, and it's, and especially in the industry, if it's like, if it's a formula and it's worked, why mess with it? And so that's where like things get very closed and insular.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. It's hard to break that up. And then, but the funny thing is, is it takes one job where someone's worked with someone new and then that's their person.

Right. And then they'll be happy to take that person from job to job to job to job. Yeah. So it's really a matter of getting, getting people in the door to be considered along with all [00:40:00] the other things. Uh, I know part of that, getting people in the door. That we get a lot of pushback on is people being scared about the language and how they talk about things and how do we talk about race?

How do we talk about l lgbtq, like we've heard, you know, for people's entire careers. , they've been told in hiring to not ask certain questions, not name things, be colorblind. Let's talk about that. And now, as a result of all these conversations, we're asking people to be very intentional and deliberate and really intentional about who they're bringing in as candidates, who they're looking at, who they're hiring.

And it's making people very nervous from a legal perspective. How do we get people kind of through.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah. I mean, I don't think we should, we should not be framing this as you need to hire black people. Like it shouldn't be a quota. It shouldn't be, we shouldn't see things from that [00:41:00] perspective. That's not useful.

It actually doesn't work and it's unconstitutional. Right? Like we don't have to have that argument. All the things, all the things, you know, people talk about, oh, well just make sure you interview a certain number of women or folks of color. The, like, the Rooney Rule, eh, has not, has not led to an. And black coaches and coaches of color, like it doesn't work in that way.

Like, so it's not as easy to just say, , oh you know, hire people of those racial or ethnic groups. And so I guess I would just name that people can stop being scared of that cuz like that should never be the way you do it. And if that's the way you're doing it, it's problematic. . Yeah. And I do think that this idea that you wanna be conscious of your pool though, is an important one.

And so you wanna think about how do I cast the widest. , how do I maybe look at Hispanic serving institutions? Historically black colleges, like not just go to the colleges that I usually go to, to recruit or not just look at the [00:42:00] programs and the film schools that I usually look to to see on a resume. But expand your network.

Expand your knowledge of who's producing folks from different backgrounds that are in the industry and have an expansive as enough pool as possible. . Um, so that then you, even if you don't end up hiring someone from a group that's historically underrepresented, you've now at least met them or they're on your roster for people to maybe reach out to.

Right? And so I do think it's important to, to not fall into this mindset that's like defensive of like, well, I can't, you know, I can't. Hire someone cuz they're black. Exactly. No one's asked you to do that. That's not what we're asking you to do. You got it. , we're asking you to be expansive in your network and the pool that you.

That you hire from to increase the possibility that you will become familiar with and potentially hire someone who's from a group that's underrepresented, [00:43:00] and to check yourself on the cultural narratives that you maybe have created about people who aren't from your group or people who are from a particular background.

So some of that is individual. on you not getting caught up in, people from this school aren't capable. Was that really true or are you just valuing the school that you went to ? Right. Um, or you know, for that you can't see the value in maybe some of the more niche cultural shows, but it's like, wait, aren't those the same camera?

Production skills that they, that they're using, you're, you know, they used over here. Aren't those the same ones you're using here? So why have that sort of bias? So there is some self-reflection that needs to happen. Um, but you also need to do the work of expanding your network and building a broader pool.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, that is a full-time job that everyone needs to be engaged in all the time.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yep.

Julie Harris Oliver: Could we [00:44:00] just talk about, uh, language and words for a minute? If you could just give us quick definitions. Equity, inclusion, diversity built landscape with the exception of built landscape. I hear people using those first three interchangeably as if they mean the same thing. just popping them into sentences.

If you could define them for us.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah, so I would start with diversity is something we all have. It's those different aspects of who we are, our social identities that. Our experiences in the world, and they are not simply race or gender or sexual orientation and those groups that are underrepresented. So I hear people talk about diversity and say, oh, diverse hire.

It's like, well, what do you mean? Oh, I mean we need more women or we need more people of color. Well, that's not a diverse hire. That's a, that's a hire, and you're going to be thoughtful about groups that have been underrepresented and make sure they're in your pool. But diversity is just gender identity, sexual orientation, veteran status being neuro [00:45:00] divergent.

Being a parent or a caregiver, those are all things we all have. And inclusion is, is including people on the basis of those differences, celebrating them, rather than telling people to leave them at the door and minimizing them. So thinking about how you create an environment that that gives people not only a sense of I can be who I am.

but also you belong here. Uh, equity is about access, opportunity advancement and, and having the opportunity in a space and having those barriers that are there that keep people from having access and opportunity removed. Right. And so that is about when people say diverse hires, typically they mean.

There's a group that's been under that's underrepresented because there've been barriers, and we need to make sure that we remove those barriers or we're cognizant of helping people navigate those barriers. That's really equity. And then built landscape is a, a concept that I've used to help people understand how systems and and inequities work.

It's like the way that things are set up and built around [00:46:00] us. So whether it's. The parks in our neighborhood, the highway system, the, the, the skyscrapers. Like what have we built up and set up around us that has shaped our experiences that I might be bumping into that you might not that shape the opportunities and access that we have.

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you. I feel like I just asked you to run through your greatest hits, but I wanna get them there on the record. I've heard you say, and if you just wanna refer people to your podcast raising equity, feel free. I've heard you say you can't nice your way out of racism. And I think that's so, uh, true. And I, and I think it's where a lot of well-meaning people go and think that that's how it can be fixed.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah, I, I just, I think that goes back to this whole idea of we can't lean on being good people to fix inequities. And so, for example, like if we know that the way that our, our school systems are set up are not fair, that kids who are living in neighborhoods [00:47:00] where the houses aren't worth as much, that their schools don't have enough resources.

And that places where people. Afford to send their kids to parochial or private schools know that they are doing that to opt out of the public system because the public system is lacking. Right. If we see that us being nice and kind to those kids, yeah. Does nothing, they're still without resources.

They're still without the books that they need or the, or the technology that they need to make them competitive in this world. And so I say we can't nice our way out of racism because being nice is not the solution. We can all be nice people in a very unfair and unjust society. And that's useless, really.

I mean, I guess it's good to be, I'm not, I'm not saying we shouldn't be kind to each other, but in terms of really changing things so that those kids have resources, our niceness doesn't do anything unless we use. To leverage our privilege and our what We have to make sure that they do have what they need to [00:48:00] change how we're funding the schools or to resource the schools.

That sort of action matters, not whether we're nice or not. You actually change the system. Yeah, right. I don't need you to like me. I just need you to make sure that I have access and an opportunity. It doesn't mean we'll have the same outcome, but it does mean that we've created an environment where people experience the ability to step forward and to have the opportunities and to thrive.

Julie Harris Oliver: Going back to. Production and what we think will actually make sustainable change. I've heard you talk about, you know, it's not one and done. A lot of times we think we can fly in, do a workshop like a sexual harassment work the way this sexual harassment workshop has not eliminated sexual harassment. In any way, shape, or form, what do you think that work actually needs to look like on productions in a sustained way?

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah. It needs to be embedded in every step of the production. So it doesn't hurt to have a training or some sort of professional development workshop for folks, [00:49:00] but it, it needs to be woven throughout. So for a simple as like if we think. honoring people in terms of their gender identity and their pronouns.

Right. Um, I can have a workshop where we talk about we respect people's pronouns, but what do we do on set, on production? When we have a call sheet? Do we give, have an opportunity for people to have their pronouns there so that everyone is able to share them? Or do we only have that. For people who identify as them, they, and they have to figure out a way to out themselves as them they, or they have to write it in.

And so those are the only pronouns. And so we're over focusing on folks who are in non-dominant groups and putting the burden on them to say something. Right. So it looks like figuring out a way to integrate the work into how you do production and not siloing it or make it in name only.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think that's what may be surprising to people.

Cuz that example that you just brought up, pronoun. Easy fix. Ask people their pronouns as they're coming in, who whoever wants to give them, give them, put them on a call sheet. Done. That's taking you 10 seconds to create an environment where [00:50:00] people may feel more comfortable,

Dr. Kira Banks: but that means we have to slow down to do something different.

and we're creatures of habit. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Be, I don't You don't have to slow down that much. I agree. It's, it's not that hard. I'm gonna argue it's not that hard. All day long to be, and we'll be, we'll be shouting that chorus from the rooftops

when I think about like reality television or unscripted televis. . And a lot of times part of the show is like the conflict, right? And the drama and the people saying terrible things to each other and that escalating. And there's also a push in the industry in general to start having, it's like the last frontier to start having HR people, you know, on productions and onset.

And so people are lodging a lot of complaints. And at the same time, I, I think sometimes in these. They're very committed to the content because the content is getting clicks and getting ratings and getting everybody talking. [00:51:00] And so it feels really hard to get in there and make really any kind of progress with the work if the content is so committed to be inflammatory.

Dr. Kira Banks: So I think this takes producers that are willing to see the bigger picture because what typically happens on these shows is. Some, some, like someone will dig up information on someone and then they're like, why didn't you know this? Or Why did you deal with this? And then they have to confront or say something on social media or say something in a, a group setting when people come back for a reunion style show or something like that.

And I think, well, like, why not be proactive and incorporate those sorts of, those sorts of content pieces into the storyline that then saves you the backlash from your view. Not that they might not dig up something you don't know about, but at least you are in conversation about the topic. before people dig it up and you don't look [00:52:00] as complicit in hiding it.

Like we've seen this before, . This is not a surprise so many times that people are gonna pull up skeletons in folks' closet. So let's just pull them out before they get found.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wouldn't it be interesting. I've always felt like, can we watch, can we watch that person's journey? You know, they've gone away for six months, they've come back, they've said, oh, I'm doing the work.

Whatever that means. I'm listening to podcasts. I'd love to watch that journey. Like let, I'd love to watch them have the conversation to work with, to work with you and like go through the process and hear the thinking in here. You know, I would love it. So here, here's our pitch. .

Dr. Kira Banks: I think it'd be super fun.

I think people would say, Oh, no one would watch that. You know, people watch those shows. To be entertained, not to be, not to be schooled.

Julie Harris Oliver: Have you seen Queer Eye in the new iteration of it, people would eat it up?

Dr. Kira Banks: I think so too. So it's really a matter of someone being innovative enough and forward thinking enough.

Okay. [00:53:00] Producers and someone willing to take a risk. . Right. I've talked to some producers who say they're in, who are like, so we'll see. Time will tell.

Julie Harris Oliver: Good. All right. Well I'm here for it.

Dr. Kira Banks: Me too. Me.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. What, this is really my last question unless there are, um, questions I did not ask you that I should have asked you, but what, what gives you hope during this time?

Who, what keeps you going?

Dr. Kira Banks: So, uh, one of my mentors, Beverly Daniel Tatum, reminds us that hope is a discipline. That it's not just something we have, that we have to practice it. And so I remember that because I don't expect hope to just be. , like, I've gotta practice it. I've got to engage it. And so what gives me hope is that there are still people who are interested in thinking deeply about this work.

So we know that like the numbers in terms of jobs, d e i positions have been laid off at higher rates than other positions. Um, so [00:54:00] we know, and we know that we're almost three years post George Floyd's murder, that these things ebb and. I'm not surprised. History, psychology, sociology, all tell us that things will ebb and flow and that other moments in our history when we had.

Great progress. We also saw great backlash, and so what gives me hope is that we have opened the doors, pushed things further than they were in the past, and that I see people who are trying to not let the doors close as far so, yes. Folks are not like, my phone is not ringing off the hook the way that it was in the summer of 2020, but it's still ringing.

And I think that's because there's a snowball of folks who are like, oh, this isn't just about unconscious bias training. This isn't just about being nice. Like this is bigger work, kind of like leadership development is big work, kind of like management skills is big work. [00:55:00] And so I see people continuing to invest in the work.

I continue to get calls about whether it's professional development or strategic consulting or I kind of joke, I have an Olivia Pope arm of my work where it's like clean up on aisle, whatever, like make this mess go away, scandal sort of stuff. . So I'm getting all of those types of calls, which means even though.

Not the fad in the way, in a way that it was, and that people have jumped off the bandwagon and there has been backlash, which just made some people clam up. That there's some who are willing to work through it. And to me, that gives me hope. And I'm actually working on a talk that's like, that is about that.

Like how to, how to commit to this work in the midst of backlash or how to keep moving even when it's not popular. . So those, those glimmers give me hope. Okay,

Julie Harris Oliver: good. Yeah. Dr. Kira Banks, thank you so much for being on the other 50%. How do people find you and where should they be following you?

Dr. Kira Banks: You can find me on all the [00:56:00] socials.

I'm Dr. Kira Banks across all the platforms, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. I'm probably forgetting something. Right. Um, you can also find me at my website@kirabanks.com. Yeah, no doctor there. Okay,

Julie Harris Oliver: great. Thanks so much.

Dr. Kira Banks: Thanks for having me. It was good to chat with you.

You've been listening to the other 50% A Herst of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris. Oliver, thank you to Dr. Kira Banks for sharing her expertise. You should immediately go and subscribe to Raising Equity and follow her on social media. And special thanks to Jay Rowe, Danny Rosner and Allison McQuaid.

For the music, go check out the Catch A Break podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

EP 223: Solo Episode. Where have I been?

Hi friends,

You’re listening to the other 50% a herstory of hollywood. I’m Julie Harris Oliver. 

It has been awhile since I dug into this podcast. I did a couple of interviews in 2022, one in 2021, but for the most part I’ve been pretty quiet here.  A lot has happened that I want to share with you.

First of all, I don’t know that I’ve ever talked much about my day jobs while doing this podcast. There were a couple glorious years where this was my day job, but for the rest of the last 20 something years that I’ve been working in and around hollywood, I worked first as an auditor at Disney, then as a production finance executive at HBO for several years and briefly The Weinstein Company, then at entertainment payroll companies for a good 13 years. Toward the end of those payroll years, I started this podcast. 

If you were a listener in those early days (I started in 2016) you heard me exploring what it was to be a woman in this business. Figuring out that there is systemic gender oppression, that it wasn’t about us needing to try harder and take more leadership classes. It is baked into the system. And I met and talked to you and you heard so many incredible women doing amazing work. Like, seriously, if you are still underestimating women, I don’t even know what to tell you.

And then it quickly became obvious that you can’t uncouple sexism from all the other isms. Racism, sexism, LGBTQIA+ discrimination, disability discrimination…all the things. If we just focus on women, most likely that's mostly going  to benefit white women, and still leave women of color behind. As LIlla Watson said, “If you have come here to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together.”

If you’ve been listening for a while, you’ve heard me learning out loud. Awkwardly, embarrassingly, cringingly. I mean, I have several podcasts out in the world where I say that Louis CK will be my next husband. Gaaahhhhh. We don’t always know what we don’t know.

You’ve heard me asking the questions. I always figured, if I have the question, or if I’ve ever had the question, then someone else does too and I might as well ask it. Even though I cringe now to listen back and am embarrassed by how little I knew. And it is thanks to the endless generosity of my guests who explained things, taught me, allowed me space to learn.

So as I went through this journey, my passion became clear and I figured since I spend all of my waking hours doing this work to advance equity, and basically doing it for free, wouldn’t it be a miracle if I was able to do it as my day job as well. So in late 2020 I got an extraordinary opportunity to work in Equity and Inclusion at a studio and work specifically on productions. Dream job. 

Well, I thought this podcast had prepared me extremely well to go into this work. I had endless passion, I had read some things, I had dug into some data, I had my finger on the pulse, I knew some stuff. Um. Again, we don’t always know what we don’t know.

I walked into this new job and quickly realized I needed to sit down and listen for a while. DEI work is rigorous, academic (people have PhDs in this stuff), and also really hard. There is a whole language to learn. There is as much unlearning to do as there is learning. It takes a long time to move giant organizations, institutions and cultures. Not everyone is as into it as we are, or believes change needs to happen or that it even can.

So, I shut up and listened. It was as thrilling as it was uncomfortable. I sat in my discomfort for a really long time. I did a lot of self talk - about how in a year I would feel so much smarter. How at some point I would be able to talk about this stuff without feeling totally awkard and inept and self-conscious. Without cringing at myself and my learning journey. WIthout saying such dumb things. Hoping at some point I would feel competent at my job. I used to lead people and teams and felt totally confident and like I knew what I was talking about! I wish I could tell you that all of that came to pass, but I am still sitting in the discomfort.

I will say, I did start to feel competent in the job. But what really happened is that I became more comfortable in the discomfort. I gave myself grace to continue learning. That you can’t just suddenly know all the things you need to know the way you might be able to in other fields. There’s no mastering the subject. Come to think of it, is that a phrase we should still use? Mastering anything? How about becoming an expert?  It’s continuous inner work along with the outer work.

So, one of things I want to do here is take you along some of that learning journey. In the last couple of years I have met some incredible people, mostly women, who are doing the work - who are those academic and professional experts. The ones who are able to put words to so many things you might have noticed but don’t know how to talk about. The ones who can take really complex ideas and structures and make them accessible. I can’t wait to share them with you.

Ok, in other news, as you may have gathered from listening to this show over the years, I was divorced in 2010 after being married for 10 years and having 3 children. I spent the next ten years raising my kids and working and not particularly concerned with whether or not I would stay single forever. Then the most amazing thing happened. The man I fell in love with when I was 20. That big first love and first heartbreak. The big love that happened before the internet. The biggest mystery to me - whatever happened to him? He reappeared. He was also divorced. We still loved each other. And we had somehow grown in the same direction. Although not the same location. He lives in a different state with his children. As crazy as it might sound, we got married. We still live in different states while our children finish high school, but those years are passing quickly and eventually we will live together. In the meantime, we see each other often and are having a great time traveling. It’s actually a wild story in the sliding doors, missed connections, passed each other on the street sort of way. Everyone we have told it to has told us to write the script, so we’re working on telling it in some kind of way. Stay tuned for that.

In the meantime, I changed my name and added his to the end. Which these days feels very patriarchal to me. But hear me out. I never wanted to change my name in the first place, but for some reason, it was very important to my first husband, so I did - dropping my middle name and moving my last name to be my middle name (Harris.) Then I had this platform and felt weird about dropping Walker professionally, not to mention it’s a logistical nightmare. But, I’m certainly not going to hang on to that name when I’m married to my current husband, and of the three last names on the table, I like his the best. So, I’m doing a mid to late career name change and I hope people can still figure out who I am and it doesn’t erase my work of the last 20 years. And since this falls into the category of problems men don’t have, I’m going to stamp it Patriarchy and just move on. Please call me Julie Harris Oliver going forward. And if you happily took your husband's name or didn’t, no judgment here, (even though I am clearly still wrestling with it) the overriding value here is the freedom of choice. In all things. ( Brett )

Ok, now speaking of names and branding - do I need to rename this show? When I started this in 2016 it was for the purpose of focusing on women, who make up roughly 50% of the population, if not a little more. And the name was in reaction to women being referred to as a minority, which is not accurate, but is used to justify or explain or describe a real power deficit when compared to men. But it feels like we’ve moved a bit beyond all that now. For one, around 1-2% of adults are non-binary that number grows to 5% for people under 30. And then when you look at the global majority of people of color, that’s like 85%. And I’m not looking for the title that includes everyone except straight white cis men, because we need them to be part of the journey forward. I still think it’s true that it’s on men to fix sexism and on white people to fix racism, so sorry white men, but there’s a lot of work you need to do! Get in here!

So, although I don’t relish a rebrand, I’m pondering it. Let me know if you have any thoughts or ideas about that.

In the meantime, here’s what’s coming in the near future…

First, I’m going to do a series with some of those experts I was telling you about - experts in DEI work, in racial equity, in anti-racism, maybe in gender and disability…we’ll see. Let’s all get on the same page and then see where we go from there. This show has always been a mix of mission and entertainment and I hope you’ll come along as we dig into mission for a bit.

Also, I’m still hosting the Catch a Break podcast where we talk to all kinds of film professionals about breaking into and navigating this business. We are producing a very cool season this year, and I’ll tell you more as I can. But if you haven’t heard that one, go catch up on the last 3 seasons and share it with all the insiders you know and especially the people trying to get in and establish themselves.

As for me and my day job - I was part of the recent mass layoffs that swept entertainment recently, especially DEI departments - so I’ve put together a consulting package to help bring equity and inclusion to film and television productions. If you want to do this work, and you’re not sure how, I can help. It’s not as hard as you imagine and there are some very simple and impactful steps you can take.  The built landscape that advantages some and disadvantages others is not always easy to even see, let alone fix. But let’s commit to doing this work together.

So, I’m back. I’ve missed you, I’ve missed this. This is my favorite thing to do. I’m looking forward to how it all unfolds.

For now, this is The Other 50% - a herstory of Hollywood and I’m Julie Harris Oliver.

You can find me at theotherfiftypercent.com all spelled out or at julieharrisoliver.com or email me at theotherfiftypercent@gmail.com.

Oh, and the other thing that happened over the last couple years is now you gotta be on TikTok. It’s not enough to advertise on Facebook. So if you would be so kind,  if you are on TikTok, please go and follow me so that I can build audience over there. 

Special thanks to Jay Roewe, Dani Rosner and Alison McQuaid for the music. Find us on all the podcast places and all the social media.

Thanks for listening. See you next time.