Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] The Catch A Break podcast is the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. Project Greenlight is about the making of an independent film by an emerging director. On season four of Catch A Break, these two shows meet. We'll talk to the producers, director, the cast, the department heads to hear what it was really like.

"Those people had to not only sign up to do a low budget indie movie, but have a camera and mic in their face while doing it." Hear what really happened behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. On Catch a Break, wherever you get your podcasts. That season of Catch A Break drops on July 13th, so mark your calendars, but right now you're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood.

I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find me in my consulting work@julieharrisoliver.com. You can find the podcast at the otherfiftypercent.com, all spelled out in letters as well as on all the podcast places. Or you can find links to everything I'm doing at the link tree that is in the show notes. The newest thing I have for you is that I've added a link for the books that people keep bringing up on the [00:01:00] show.

I've become an affiliate of an independent bookstore group, so please use my link to purchase those books our guests are talking about, and that way you don't have to remember as you're listening and your purchase can help support the show, and we're supporting independent bookstores. It's a win, win, win, win, win.

Okay, so one more thing before we meet today's guest. I met the smartest and funniest co-host of my new favorite podcast this week, and I want to tell you all about it. If you are a woman of a certain age or headed towards it or love someone who is, this is for you. And if you like the Kiss My Age show, you will love Circling the Drain.

The concept of a woman circling the drain conjuress up negative imagery for some, but for the hosts of Circling The Drain podcast, they've heard this phrase used so many times in reference to perimenopause, menopause, and the plight of the aging woman that they've chosen to reclaim and repurpose the phrase in the spirit of humor.

Co-host and longtime friends. Ellie and Julia take a deep dive into the sometimes embarrassing, often hilarious, always bewildering issues of hormonal [00:02:00] changes that take place in midlife. Doesn't feel like everyone is talking about this right now, or is that just my TikTok feed? Through honest accounts, thoughtful interviews, and group panel discussions, their mission is to make you chuckle, make you nod your head in recognition, and hopefully make some scientific progress. Tune in to Circling The Drain podcast every other Wednesday. Wherever you get your podcast today.

On this podcast, I sat with Dr. Apollo Emeka. Apollo is the founder and CEO of Apollo Strategy Group, Inc., an innovative leadership and strategy consultancy for business leaders, companies, and the next wave of ventures launched by diverse and impactful founders. Since its inception, Apollo Strategy Group has created over 500 million in value for a hundred plus high performance leaders and businesses and industries such as technology, real estate, professional services, and entertainment by developing bespoke strategies and providing hands-on implementation.

Prior to founding Apollo Strategy Group, Apollo launched and sold a [00:03:00] business. He scaled from one to seven locations within four years, while serving as an FBI intelligence analyst. In 2022, he retired from a decorated 20 year military career as a US Army, special Forces Green Beret, and a US military Intelligence analyst.

Apollo has a doctorate of policy planning and development from University of Southern California, fight on, and lives with his wife and two children in Pasadena, California. Apollo Strategy Group is small business certified, disabled veterans, business certified, and minority Business enterprise certified.

We talked about his journey going from being unschooled to his PhD at USC , how he thinks about leadership and achievement, and how he works with clients to embed equity all along the way Here, have a listen. I am gonna say, doctor, I'm here with Dr. Apollo Emeka. Welcome to the other 50% why. Thank

Apollo Emeka: you, Julie, and please, Just call me Apollo.

I got, I got my doctorate. So that way people would be, feel [00:04:00] obliged to call me Doctor the first time that they say my name and then I can just say, oh no, please pish posh. Please just call me Apollo. You'd be super humble after that. That's right. Exactly

Julie Harris Oliver: around here. We'd like to give credit where credit is due.

Okay, so, we'll,

Apollo Emeka: I'll take it. Okay,

Julie Harris Oliver: good. Thank you for coming. Could you tell us kind of in your own words, how you explain what it is that you do? We

Apollo Emeka: help leaders and teams who have really big goals align all of their people and resources to hit those big goals. So sometimes that involves coaching, facilitation, strategic planning.

We bring this kind of host of wraparound hands-on services to help leaders and teams make big things happen.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now I'd love to hear how you got to that point. That sounds really big and strategic and cutting edge and like you're making things happen. Mm-hmm.

Apollo Emeka: I'd like to think so.

Julie Harris Oliver: I know that perhaps that wasn't always the case in your life, so if you could tell us kind of your origin story and how you [00:05:00] got here.

Cuz I think it's a story unlike those that people typically

Apollo Emeka: hear. Well, yeah, I, I think that that one of the most catalyzing moments that I had in life happened when I was around eight years old and my parents decided to homeschool me. At least that's what they called it. But really it was, I think the modern movement would be called no schooling.

Or unschooling. Unschooling, yeah. Yeah. So it's, which means

Julie Harris Oliver: it's let you follow whatever.

Apollo Emeka: That's it. Wild hair you have that is it. And so, I mean, that was, that defined. My, my adolescence was just kind of like, yeah. Following my curiosity and my whims and , and my weaknesses in a lot of ways of, you know, if I just didn't want to get outta bed, my parents were like, okay, don't, you know, if I didn't want to go to soccer practice, my parents were like, you know, okay, don't do it.

And then I just would like quit. I kind of developed this habit of, of quitting and failing at almost everything that I, I got involved in. [00:06:00] Yeah, I was gonna say, how did

Julie Harris Oliver: that go? I think you've gotta be super motivated and what, what eight year old is honestly.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah, I mean, I always felt like an adult trapped in a child's circumstances.

Mm. And I used to, I remember, I mean, around that time, I would be like, oh my gosh, I cannot wait to be an adult. I cannot wait to be an adult. To be able to kind of pursue all the things that I want to pursue and to really be able to get. Um, another, another parenting term that I've learned is natural consequences.

You know, the natural consequences of your actions. So my parents were not the type that would, you know, send me to time out for three minutes because when you're an adult, you don't really get sent to time out for three minutes. So they were pretty big on natural consequences. They weren't super intentional about it, but that was what I just felt like I didn't, I couldn't get the benefits of the feedback or the fruits of my actions as a child.

So fourth grade is when I was like, oh yeah, I don't want to do school anymore like this. And my parents were like, okay. And then I just did no [00:07:00] school. My dad, you know, he tried and, and there were times where he was like trying to teach me algebra in fourth grade, and he was like, oh, this is great. Like, I'm teaching you stuff that you wouldn't be able to learn at fourth grade in school.

But then I would be able to sit down for like 15 minutes and then my eyes would just like start rolling. And then he'd be like, all right, whatever. And then in fifth grade, I remember fifth, fifth grade rolled around and I was like, oh gosh. Okay. That was a fun experiment. But like, I was just sitting around the house, whatever, running around, riding bikes, building tree houses by myself.

Cause all my friends are in school. I need to go back to school. I need to go back. So in fifth grade, , beginning of the year I went back to school. So you put yourself back in? I put myself back in.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I think it's worth noting you are the youngest of, is it

Apollo Emeka: four boys? Yeah. I'm the youngest of four boys by, , 11 years.

So they're kind of clustered 11, 13, and 15 years older than I am. And

Julie Harris Oliver: it's not that your family is not academic. Two of your brothers are professors. Your father's super

Apollo Emeka: academic? Yeah, so my, my dad's black, my mom was [00:08:00] white. And my, my dad who grew up in Arkansas in the segregated south, his father actually had a doctorate.

So I think his, his father got his doctorate. Wow. In the fifties or something like that. My dad, , had an mba. Has an mba, and then, like you said, two of my brothers have terminal degrees. One has an MFA and the other has a PhD. And so it wasn't so much like, , we don't see the value in knowledge. We don't see the value in academics.

It was more so just like academics shouldn't cost you your soul, kind of, and that, you know, systems are problematic and that if this system is not serving you, then don't participate. I kind of love that. Yeah, it's wild. I, I found this, my dad actually maybe 10 years ago, sent this thing that, , was like their scribblings on an notepad of like, why they should homeschool me or not, and it was so amazing to read.

That list just resonated so hard, and a lot of it was, you know, yeah, we want him to pursue his own curiosity. We want him to [00:09:00] be able to kind of learn at his own pace and not be held back or rushed forward by the group and all of these things that it felt really, even at the time, it felt really messy, but it's so funny to see how a lot of what they intended actually happened.

I, I now have a doctorate, so it's, it's wild how, how that worked, how you did

Julie Harris Oliver: things kind of on your own time, because that, that feels like, as a parent, that feels like such a risky move. Right. Because I, I think about all the time, you know, I'm in this stage now where my kids are either graduating college or applying to college, and it's such a blatantly inequitable system.

Yeah. And I, no, part of me wants to participate and also, We have to participate in order to get on with this American life.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah, I mean, I think. Well, so I guess fifth grade, you know, I went to school, I was there for probably five weeks and I was like, oh, nevermind. I remember why I hated this place and I just bounced right back out.

And I kind of, I kind of did that all the way up until high school. My mom got [00:10:00] diagnosed with pancreatic cancer when I was 17, and then five months later she, she died, she passed away. And then I was like, oh, well I'm never, like I, I was in complete free fall. I was a big mama's boy, and so I was like, okay, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to, like, there's no way I'm gonna be able to graduate from high school.

And so I ended up dropping out and my dad signed for me to be able to go into the army at 17. But, you know, I think, and, and I, I had dreams of being on either Saturday Night Live or being in the F B I from the time that I was like 13 years old. I, and it was because I loved watching Saturday Night Live.

What did the other live, and I loved watching the X-Files and I was able to hit one of those goals. I was in the f FBI for six years. And so, you know, there's this with regards to your comments around. The system, you know that there is kind of no such thing as non-participation in the system or that it comes at a heavy cost.

The more you try to not participate in the system, the more you're, the more it extracts a heavy cost. I think that [00:11:00] I learned to see the kind of like the code in the matrix from a really young age. I, cause I'm telling you, my mind exploded. I remember where I was sitting, I remember where my mom was sitting when she was like, you don't have to go back to school tomorrow.

It's just like, What, what, and, and when you look at it, so much of our society, all of these social structures and institutions only exist on collective belief. That is the only thing that keeps them going right, is collective belief. And when enough people don't believe in the system, then the system changes, right?

And so I was taught very young that like, hey man, all this stuff's made up okay. Like school, no school, whatever. Like as long as you have a roof over your head and you have enough food to eat, like the, that's the bare minimum. That's the stuff that's immutable. You've gotta have that, right? But like, other than that, like school, no school, whatever, it's all, it's all made up.

And so I think that what I, I had the benefit of being able to see the code in the matrix [00:12:00] from a, a young age, but I also didn't like being broke. You know? I didn't like being, I was very conscious from a young age that we, that we didn't have money. And, and a lot of it is because of the way that my parents chose to participate or not in the system.

And so I, I realized, hey, I need to get some discipline. And that's why I was drawn to the Army because I was like, okay, yeah, everything's made up, but if you play by their rules, then you, you reap the rewards that the system doles out. So I gotta figure out how to make that happen. That's an

Julie Harris Oliver: amazing realization to have really young.

Because I think collectively it feels like recently we're all kind of figuring out, oh, this is made up. We're all doing it this way because that's how we've always done it, but it, someone made it up in the first place. Someone designed it this way and it doesn't have to be that way, but to to know that as a kid, it's interesting how that would then affect the rest of your life and how you pursue things.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. I think that it's more important than ever to [00:13:00] realize. How much everything is made up. You know, our system of money, our system of government, these things only exist because we believe that they do. And so we're at a more fragile point than I think people really realize because we take the dollar for granted and we take, you know, our, our political institutions for granted, and we, we talk trash and we lament both of those things.

But, but we also, we, we talk about them like, they're, like, they're these invincible giants. And I think that we're at a point where things are more fragile than most people realize, but I think people are starting to kind of wake up to that. So, like you said, we're having this kind of collective awakening too, to the made up nature.

And the, you know, of these social constructs that define a lot of what happens in our lives. Well, I used to

Julie Harris Oliver: say this a lot about work, you know, while I was at work in an office job and people would look at me like I had seven heads. But I would say, you know what? We've made this whole thing up. We're all here playing work.

Like this thing we're doing doesn't really matter. And my theory was we're all kind [00:14:00] of here to work out our stuff, to help each other, to do things collectively. But the ultimate like whatever this business is doing didn't necessarily really matter in the big scheme

Apollo Emeka: of things. Mm. Mm-hmm. And when you say here, are we talking like metaphysical here or are we talking about like an address here?

Oh, I

Julie Harris Oliver: meant like whatever we're doing in this building for this company, like in the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter. Like we were never curing cancer, right? It was always just, we're all running around being really stressed out, having all these meetings, and we've all decided that it's really important.

But in the big scheme of the cosmos, in humanity, it's, it wasn't important at all. But, but there was something about that we all believe this is important, so we're all gonna put our heart and soul into it and work out whatever we need to work out while we're here.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, so then I guess, what do you, what do you see as kind of righteous, as righteous work?

, you mentioned curing cancer, you know, like if we're, I, if we're curing cancer, is that, you know, like what is, what is righteous work?

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh [00:15:00] god. I mean, yeah, curing cancer seems important. Like for, for me, it's, you know, I don't even know if I can put it in a sentence, but there's something about, I know creating a better world, creating a better society, having more, having more equality, having a place where people can be who they're meant to be and do the thing that they're meant to do and creating that environment.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. I love it. What is it for you? Well, yeah, I think it's the same thing. I guess I just see it as like, I think that you can do that almost from anywhere. You know, I think that you, and I think that's the, the hard part about, that's the hard thing about being a part of an institution is it almost feels like people think you kind of have to do it the like, evil way almost.

It's like, no, we have to do things in a way that's exploitative, otherwise we're not gonna make money. Right. You know? Or we have to do things in a way that doesn't consider people's feelings otherwise we're like, this woke like mushy thing that's just again, not gonna make money. That's not thinking about the bottom [00:16:00] line.

And I think that there are so many examples of companies that are doing things in a non evil way, and they're making good money and they're doing good in the world. You know? And I, I'm sure I could say some names and people would be like, oh no they don't. They're not good. But I mean, the things I've heard about, like Patagonia, that's an unmatched for sure.

They're almost unfair to point out because it's, it's almost like a non-profit for-profit company. Like they're playing a different game. They're playing a different game. They are. And it, and it's, that's the thing though, that, like, that's how you can be a, a participant in the system, but not, you can leverage the rules of the system to do things in a way that actually doesn't, that's, that's net positive.

You know? And I think that the owner of Patagonia sees that he sees the code in the Matrix and so he was like, Hey, like you guys have gotta find a way to essentially make us a non-profit for-profit, otherwise I'm gonna sell this company. But there are lots of companies that are out there that I think are, are, have a net positive impact on the world and certainly like, you know, [00:17:00] lots of people that have a net positive impact on the world.

And we just act like you can either do good or you can do well. And, and I just, I just reject that. I love that

Julie Harris Oliver: phrase. Either you can do good or you can do well. Yeah, you have to be able to do both. I think this has come into such sharp relief for me, especially lately when like you're looking at every single studio in Hollywood has just had massive layoffs.

Yeah. And I gotta, and, and not just Bitter Betty because it happened to me recently, but when you're looking at these companies and I gotta, I gotta think they're profitable companies, but not in the way that makes the shareholders. Happy. So then it feels like the capitalism to make the very few people at the very top, obscenely wealthy at the cost of thousands of well paying jobs that are supporting families and supporting lifestyles, seems, seems not right to me.

Put 'em mi mildly.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. There's this, this series on Netflix called Fill in the Blank, explained, and there's, , [00:18:00] billionaires explained and basically the, they, it's really cool. They have these illustrations for like explaining billionaires and, and kind of the, the economic consequences of billionaires.

But, but one of the things that was really salient with me is, I can't remember what illustration they had, but it really stuck with me that like when you can afford to just park your money, right? Like when you can just afford to park your money and kind of press pause. Like that's why I. Billionaires stay billionaires, right?

Like most Americans cannot hit the financial pause button, but billionaires can. And so when you, you know, like with all of these layoffs, those, the people who help to put the company in the position to make a whole bunch of money, that value gets captured by the company and it gets captured by the, the top executives and by the shareholders.

And so they're kind of like locked in. Right. And then when it's like, oh, shoot, we need to sit on the sidelines for a little bit, then we can reduce our [00:19:00] overhead. I e fire a bunch of people, but our value is still captured. So what's happening in that moment is like we are maybe not as, the elites are not making a ton of money at that time.

They can afford to sit on the sidelines and they, they're still gonna be able to pay their bills. That value is still captured. Whereas all the people who get laid off, right, like they, they didn't in, in the 10 years that they worked for that company, did not stack massive amounts of value that allow them to sit on the sidelines until the next upswing.

Right? So I think that there is, there's a challenge in that there's no financial. Or even moral consequence for perpetuating that pattern of let's build up a company, let's hire a bunch of people, and now we can feel good that we're employing X amount of people and Yeah. And we build it up and we capture a bunch of value, and then now we need to kind of sit on the sidelines for a bit and we're gonna decrease our overhead and, and we're still gonna be fine.

That's a huge challenge in our economy. Well, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: And it's, it's presented in a way of, for the good of the company. Mm-hmm. We have to make [00:20:00] these difficult decisions with the assumption that, oh, we're all gonna be on board with, with the good of the company. Of course. That's our highest value for the good of the company.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Let's talk about you and your work. I feel like we've gone down this rabbit hole. What is your kind of, what is your philosophy when working with clients, helping them, helping them achieve what they wanna achieve? How do you look at it?

Apollo Emeka: I draw a lot from my own personal experience, and that is, you know, I spent so much time trying to make up for the fact that I didn't have the discipline, that I didn't have the, the soccer trophies and the basketball trophies and the debate team trophies and the graduation caps and all this at the various stages in life.

I spent so much time seeing myself as an underdog, seeing myself as not worthy because I didn't, I I, I didn't check any of the boxes that society, that society can recognize as being valuable, you know, and I spent the next, really, the, the first 10 years of my adulthood, Trying to make up for all of these things [00:21:00] that I perceive to be deficits from, you know, high school to diploma, to again, to aca, you know, sports, to you name it.

I mean, I just did not have any kind of pedigree track record or the type of habits that build those things. And so then I spent the next 10 or 15 years like getting all the accolades. You know, I stacked up, I checked all the boxes. I went, came off of active duty after deploying to Iraq and moved straight to la, went to community college and took like, A million units back to back to back to back.

Transferred to usc. Did really well there. Got into the fbi, became a Green Beret in the military, entered a doctoral program, started a business, sold it. So I had like five things going on at one point and you know, and I had all of these things that you could point to and you could say, oh, that, that guy is successful.

Cuz he is got the top academic degree, degree that you can have. He's in one of the most respect. He did the things. He did the things right. And so in doing all the things, it was so funny cuz it was like, I. I checked [00:22:00] a lot of boxes in a short amount of time, a bunch of them, and I realized that when I, whenever I went into a room, I was like, I was in, I was an anomaly, you know, in a room full of Green Berets.

I was the only kind of like theater dude, you know, or like theater dude who was in marriage counseling with his wife, , in a room full of theater people or entrepreneurs or whatever. I was the only like Green Beret, you know? So like, I think that that comes from the DNA of my, of my diverse experiences of being able to, I dabbled in so many things as a kid.

I got exposed to so many different things as a kid that I drew on these weird experiences. You know, I drew on these things that at the time were like, oh my gosh, no, you should be in school. You shouldn't be running around in Seattle like doing theater or. Practicing kata, you should be in school with everybody else.

And so, yeah, so, but again, it was like all of these things that kind of had made me a weirdo or an outcast that I actually was drawing [00:23:00] from that helped me check all these boxes in such a short amount of time. And also, you know, I think some people have a really hard time. And I'm gonna get to the work philosophy in just a second.

It's some people have a really hard time identifying which boxes you like really, really gotta check. And which boxes are there just because somebody thought to put that box there, but you don't really have to check it. And I got really good at seeing those boxes, you know, of seeing like, okay, what are the boxes that you absolutely must check?

, and what are the boxes that are kind of suggestions or, or are just there because like somebody, whoever was in charge of making the boxes at the time was just like, I don't know, let's just put a thing like here. Like that's literally how stuff happens. And so I have an idea. I have an idea. Yeah. Or like, yeah, it's a requirement in stone.

Exactly, exactly. So my own success accelerated the more that I leveraged the weirdness about me. And the cool thing is that we're all kind of like, we're all kind of [00:24:00] weirdos, but we are taught to tuck it in. We're taught to be like, no, no, no, I'm not a weirdo. I swear I'm just like everybody else. I'm fine.

I'm fine. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm fine. You're fine. We're all fine. I'm, I'm just as fine as you. No more fine than you. Maybe a little bit more fine than you, but not much more. Yeah. So like that, this, this idea that like we. That normal is best, like normal is best. Fitting in is best. And so for so long I felt that pressure and, and you know, being the only black kid in, in a super white town growing up, , also had an impact of me really wanting to just, no, no, no, I'm just like you, I'm just, I'm normal, I'm normal.

, but the more I started to be like, oh wait, no, these things are weird about me, but like, what does this weirdness position me to do? You know, that maybe, maybe somebody else that doesn't have this particular flavor of weirdness wouldn't be able to do. You know, so maybe I shouldn't be looking at how do I, how do I travel the beaten path really, really quickly.

Instead it's like, oh, how do I walk the paths that only I could walk because of my unique experiences and, you know, everybody [00:25:00] has something that's a little bit weird or, and, and a lot of times it's the things that we're ashamed of. You know, I was literally, I was ashamed of. Where I lived growing up at the end of a dirt road in a trailer with no money, you know, and I would have people drop me off at the top of the driveway so they wouldn't see my house and whatnot.

And, and, and I realized that being broke gave me so much resilience. You know, it gave me so much perspective and it, and it made me, it made it so that I, I can go low maintenance if I have to. Right. Like I can, I can find other paths if I have to because that's what you do when you're broke. Mm-hmm. So what we do, essentially, I told you I was gonna make it round eventually.

, what we do is we, we help people and teams and companies identify, Hey, what is your unique D n A that positions you to be the leader that no one else could be because you, because of your unique set of experiences. What is it that this team coming together with all of these skills and all of these experiences, what are you positioned to do that no one else could do [00:26:00] because they don't have your collective dna?

And the same thing with companies. And so it's really about really getting to know our clients and getting to know the folks that we work with, so that way we can identify what is gonna be your, your unique advantage. And then how do we build around that unique advantage rather than, you know, kind of benchmarking off of a competitor or trying to be like some other leader that you saw, or, you know, just trying to like, not rock the boat and make everything normal or help to protect you from being perceived as an outcast or something.

It's like, I don't know, use those things because those are the things that, I mean, that's the experience that's gonna, that's gonna help you bring something unique to the world, to, to that office, to that place where you're just showing up to make the world a better place. I'm

Julie Harris Oliver: curious how, how you got there in yourself to realize, oh, this is actually my superpower and my secret sauce.

Like, how did you get there? And then also can you give us an example of what you're talking about?

Apollo Emeka: I hope [00:27:00] so. How did I realize it? We've all had the feeling where we're sitting in a room and you're like, Is it me? Like, do I not understand what's happening here? Because it sound, it feels like we're all emperors.

No closing it right now. You know, like so that feeling when you're sitting there and you're like, what? I need to go read a book or something cuz the things that are happening in this room sound kind of crazy based on my experience. The thing that you're trying to do sounds crazy. Right. And so it's like, I had this thing where I was like, okay, if everybody sounds crazy, then I'm probably the problem.

Right? I'm probably the one that's that's messed up here

Julie Harris Oliver: because everyone's acting like, oh yeah, that's right.

Apollo Emeka: That's right. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and like at most, maybe people will be silent and, and there's these things that are happening where, and it could be a hiring decision, it could be a product decision, it could be a business decision.

It could be a conversation about like sending your kids to what school you're gonna send your kids to. And everyone's just having this conversation and you're like, this sounds really, this sounds just bonkers. [00:28:00] It sounds off. And I think, you know, for so long I trained myself to try to shut that voice down and to say, well, no, no, no.

Everybody else thinks this way, so it's got to be you. It's, it has to be you. Like of course you don't understand because you didn't, whatever. You didn't have these, you didn't have the conventional accolades or whatever. You didn't have that conventional upbringing, so you just, they're speaking a language that you don't get and you need to, you need to learn to understand this language.

So you're thinking,

Julie Harris Oliver: first I need to code switch to get along here. Rather than I have something else that probably needs to be said out loud.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah, for sure. And I guess, yeah, I mean, I've done my fair share of code switching, but I've always been kind of obsessed with learning as well. And so I would be in these rooms and I'd be like, tell me more, because like, help me get there.

Help me get to where this will all make sense to me. When I started to kind of like push back on this, I, I was in enough rooms where enough things were happening that were making the, the hair on the back of my neck standup and being like, yo, my spidey sense is going off. [00:29:00] Some doesn't feel right. And then I just started asking provocative questions in these spaces where it was relevant or if it was like, oh, this is, I'm completely powerless in this situation, then I'd be like, okay, I need to get outta here cuz actually this is messed up so I need to go someplace where people aren't talking like this.

Right? Like that was, that was one thing is like, can I go, can I get what I want out of life? And be in fewer rooms where boring ass conversations like this, like. Boring ass, super status quo conversations like this are happening. Can I have less of this in my life? And if I can't have less of this in my life because there are rooms like this that are standing between me and what I want, well then how do I walk into these spaces with authenticity and how do I bring my own unique perspective and value into those spaces in a way that is collaborative, you know, that's, that's provocative and disruptive, but it's as collaborative as it is those things.

So for instance, you know, a lot of times it's, a lot of times it's the smallest thing of just like thinking [00:30:00] what other people are saying. I mean saying, saying what other people are thinking. It's a, it's as small as saying like, wait, how do we know that? You know, how do we know, how do we know this is true?

Right? Like, asking a question, how do we know that's true? Just a question that's as simple as that can can change the course of a conversation. I'm trying to think of kind of like a watershed moment. I think a lot of it, a lot of it has been very private for me because again, like there was one point where I was in the F B I I was running a business, I was in a doctoral program.

I was a newlywed running a business with my wife and I was a Green Beret doing special forces stuff outside the country a couple weeks or a couple months a year. Wait all at the same time. All at the same time. And so a lot of that is like the way I use my unique experiences to say like, okay, I can see which of these things are like, which of these boxes are made up and which of them are are real.

So I just got better at seeing like, okay, well if I'm gonna do [00:31:00] five things at a time, how do I make sure that like I'm only checking the boxes in each of those five things that are absolutely necessary to be successful there. And how do I, as much as possible, overlap. So that like checking a box in one place checks a box across three of the things that I'm doing.

Something. So for instance, like

Julie Harris Oliver: you just said something that I was, I heard it like as a woman, we do the opposite. When you said, figuring out how many those boxes you have to check to be successful. But I think women are conditioned to, to be successful, I have to check every last one of those boxes and a couple more that aren't even on the list in order to be successful when we have all found out.

That's not the thing that makes you successful, that makes you the person who checks off all the things at the list. On the

Apollo Emeka: list. For sure. I mean, yeah, black women are the most educated demographic in the country. Right. And yeah. , that doesn't show up in wealth and position and title. It does. Right. So, so there's something else.

There's something else. Yeah. And so I think the more kind [00:32:00] of layered your identity is, the more you know by race, gender, orientation, the more kind of layers you have, the more there is this instinct to, to get the, the, the degrees and the certification and the job title and the assets under management and the whatever.

So you have those accolades cuz you're like, oh, surely, surely, as soon as I have this thing, then people will listen to me. If I'm the

Julie Harris Oliver: most qualified person in the room, I might win the election.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. And still know. And still know, right. So, yeah. So I, I think that one of the things that I also realized really early on was that people don't care about accolades as much as they care about what you can do for them.

And so what I learned really early on is if you want to be successful, find out the people who are holding the keys to that gate and find out how to be valuable to them. And here's the trick in a way that's authentic to you. You know? And [00:33:00] that's, that's for two reasons, because one is so that way you can sleep at night.

And two, it's because if you lean into your own authenticity, you're gonna find ways to provide value that, that other people just won't, that won't have, because th those tools are not in their, in their bag because they didn't, they didn't have those experiences.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, you stumped me because, because now I'm thinking if, if you don't have, if you're not a match to what they need, then you probably need to go someplace else.

Apollo Emeka: Say more.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm just, I'm thinking, I'd love that idea of you have your unique thing and you need to do it authentically, but still give the people who hold the keys to power what they need to be successful will make you successful. Am I saying that back right? Sure. Yeah. But, but then what if your special sauce is not at all the thing that, that is gonna be helpful in that situation with that person, then do you need to look

Apollo Emeka: elsewhere?

I think that first I would look at how do I really leverage that authenticity like that, [00:34:00] my authentic self to provide value here? Because I guess the thing that's tricky about it is it's not like, oh, I did ballet growing up, so therefore I need to do ballet dance in front of the VP of such and such.

Like,

Julie Harris Oliver: wait till he sees

Apollo Emeka: Exactly. It's not, it's not, , I mean, sometimes it's that literal, like I have taken executives to the shooting range and that's, you know, that's a skillset that I have, , is shooting and teaching people to shoot. And so sometimes it is that literal I've done, you know, I grew up doing theater and at, at sc my, I had a theater minor and then I went on to do, , upright Citizens Brigade.

I did some improv stuff. And so like that's a tool in my toolkit that I've done improv stuff with our clients because that is literally a tool in my toolkit, but, Oftentimes it's like the things that I've learned from Im improv have showed up in literal ways, very minimally in the work. But that unique [00:35:00] experience, being able to draw from the experience of standing on a stage with seven other people who are all, we are all telling a collective story with no planning, and it needs to make sense and it needs to be funny.

The level of listening that has to happen, the level of being able to support people that has to happen in order to do that is like, it's a mind numbing skill. When I was doing improv, I would literally go home and take a nap after two hours of improv because I was so smoked. Oh

Julie Harris Oliver: yeah. Exhausting. And I bet you use Yes.

And every day of your life.

Apollo Emeka: Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And, and being able to. Yeah. So all of these things, it's about really the, the trick is to really love your experiences and to love yourself, so that way your subconscious knows to access your full self at work. But I think so much of us, we d we kind of like compartmentalize and we resent ourselves for [00:36:00] certain things, or we're embarrassed by the fact that we do improv and maybe somebody's gonna wanna come see me and they're gonna see that I'm not funny and it's gonna suck and I'm gonna.

You know, like we can part analyze and so like we, we close off these experiences and these, and these would be skillsets because we're like, oh, that doesn't apply. Or, oh, that kind of makes me a weirdo. Or like, it's not, I'm not, it's not like I'm up there, , you know, being Amy Poer or something like that.

I'm not an, I'm not an improv guru, so I can't really call it a skill that I have, but like it's really about recognizing and appreciating all of your experiences so that you can bring that to bear when it really matters. Because like you said, the yes and. The listening, the being part of a team when things are chaotic, like improv is a really great model for that.

But I also have the special forces model that also gives me, you know, how to be part of a, a, a high performance team when, , things are chaotic and when you have a really hard thing that you're trying to accomplish. So it's really about how do I recognize and activate these different [00:37:00] experiences that I've had in this moment when I'm sitting with an executive who's looking at whether to hire or fire, or who's looking at whether to expand the product or to do away with it.

Right? Like, how, what experiences can I call on that are gonna help me help them get to a decision and implement

Julie Harris Oliver: it? So are you working one-on-one with people or with teams

Apollo Emeka: or both? Both. Yeah. , we do, we do one-on-one coaching, and then we also do on the light end of the spectrum, we'll do like, One off, I'll do one off speaking, or we'll do one off facilitations.

And then I guess it kind of graduates up to one-on-one coaching. And then, , various levels of kind of, you know, maybe a couple month, month long engagements of kind of getting some strategic gear unstuck on a team or at a company. And then we have full-blown engagements that are multi-year, Hey, we wanna launch this product, or we want to get a certain amount of, , you know, assets under management.

And [00:38:00] then on, we have a three year horizon and we are their kind of strategic thought partners through those engagements. That sounds really fun actually. It's super fun.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Now I know that you don't. Correct me if I'm wrong. You don't do, you don't specifically do like de and I work, but I also sense that it's kind of baked in to everything that you do, especially talking about bringing your full, authentic self to work.

And we've talked about this a lot in the past as when you're talking to kind of established old companies that are led by cis heterosexual white men who are really just at the beginning of figuring out there's some systemic disparities in the country and in the workplace. Yeah. And I know there's, for me, I'm always trying to figure out like how do, how do you meet the people where they are and kind of lead them to where they need to be?

And I know we've talked about. You having a bit more of like a confrontation, not conf, confrontational may not be the right word. Being more direct about it Yeah. [00:39:00] Than maybe I would be, but can you talk about that a little bit?

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. Well first, I mean, I, I, not to let the, the, the cis old white guys off the hook here, but I wish that they were the only problem.

You know, it's, it really is a systemic issue and it's, it's, , and when, I guess when I say it, it's like lack of equity on any, on any spectrum. And we, we all are participants, you know, we're all participants to varying degrees and it's really, it's wild when there are kind of, we're working with folks who I would consider to be kind of young and progressive who say and do really problematic things, you know, , or even people of color who are saying and doing things that I feel like are counterproductive to achieving equity and justice.

Overall, so because it's the water we've all been swimming in. That's it. That is it. And I think like, especially when you kind of throw the generational issues in there. It's funny, I was, I was talking to this young woman, young black woman yesterday, and she's like, Hey, I'm looking for [00:40:00] my next thing m might you know anybody?

And I was like, yeah, I think I do know somebody who needs your skillset. Let me put you on. And she's like, wow, this is really great. Like, I, I appreciate this because we've had like one conversation ever. She randomly hit me up on LinkedIn and , she's like, I'm, I've, I appreciate you, like, going out on a limb for me.

And yeah, again, probably, I don't know, , she might, she might listen to this, but, , I don't know, she's probably in her late twenties, maybe a black woman in her late twenties. And I said, you know, I have, as I've been navigating through these larger corporations, you run into people of color and who are.

Who are literally afraid to bring me on. And my team, because we're also all a bunch of diverse folks and, and predominantly black women. And, , there are, you know, there are folks who are, who are black and they're in companies and they, they're like, oh man, I don't know. Like, should I do this? Or are they gonna think that I'm just the person who brings in all the black people.

Right.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's affiliation

Apollo Emeka: covering. [00:41:00] Yeah, exactly. So it's like, shoot. And I'm like, what? Like, but I, you know, most of the people who have that kind of sentiment were entering the workforce in the seventies, eighties, nineties when things were like, where you really, where things were you, you really had to tread lightly.

And it was so funny talking to this woman in, like I said, probably her late twenties, who was like, She was like, oh my gosh, I had no idea that was even a thing. Like I had no idea that somebody might be that cautious to where they wouldn't introduce some, somebody who looks like them because they're afraid that people are gonna be like, you're bringing too many people who look like you.

They just didn't even, it wasn't in her math at all. And so it's good. Well, that's actually really, it's really hopeful. It's hopeful, you said. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I think, I think so. Oh, again, somewhere. I mean, I, I think and ho and I mean, like, what, what is cool is I think she shows up like as her authentic self, you know, she was like, Hey, look, it's all, it's all the articles that you read about Gen Z.

She's like, yo, I wanna work remote. I wanna make this much [00:42:00] money. I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And I'm like, yo, go girl. Go. So I'm closing my laptop at five

Julie Harris Oliver: o'clock.

Apollo Emeka: Exactly. That's it. Exactly. , and this is the kind of laptop that I want too. Yeah, yeah. So she's, , but, but I think, you know, the way that we approach this is by, first of all, I mean, you know, our team, the people that we recommend, it looks like.

It looks like we are trying to actually make things more equal. You know, it looks like we're actually trying to balance the scales when companies, when we're helping companies hire, we look to, to ensure that the candidate pools are diverse and that we're addressing biases right up front and looking to, , yeah, looking to make sure that, that, that companies are, are really getting the full benefits of, of having diverse teams.

So some of the things that we do are implied just by again, showing up and it's like, oh man. Like I have, I have clients that are at companies that we [00:43:00] work with where they're like, they'll, you know, they'll text me on the side and be like, I'm so, it's so cool how you keep bringing these black women to come help us.

Like, like whispering. Yeah. Straight up whispering. Like, it's so cool.

Julie Harris Oliver: Do you find yourself having to, like if you're helping someone with a candidate search and you're pre presenting them with that pool of candidates, are you finding. Doing that is enough or are you also having to explain to them why you're doing that?

Apollo Emeka: Oh yeah. I mean, I just had a conversation not too long ago with an executive in a company that we're working with where it's like, Hey, I know one of the other senior people in the company is, is troubled by the lack of of women. And senior leadership roles and feels like she doesn't have anybody to talk to.

Then he is like, oh, who told you that? I'm like, she did. So, you know, these conversations that are not making their way to the highest echelons of these companies. You know, I, because we kind of have, because we, we are so hands on, we have views [00:44:00] into companies that are really unique because we'll be coaching or facilitating kind of all over and we get to.

See and hear these different perspectives, and then we get to take action. And just a lot of times it's a, a strategic conversation just like that one. Like, hey, basically you better have a really damn good reason for not hiring a woman into this role because a wo the, a woman at the, the only other woman at this level is calling out the fact that she's the only woman at this level and that, and is, and is saying that, hey, this is the, we're having, , you know, I'm having a hard time communicating, , and feeling like I'm part of the team because of it.

So a lot of times it is that kind of, that kind of tactical and, and direct feedback of like, yo no more, no more white dudes in this role. Because once

Julie Harris Oliver: you say that, then the act of not hiring a woman into that role is saying something. Right. Because once you have the information to not take the action, that's giving a whole nother message that you may not actually wanna be

Apollo Emeka: giving.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:45:00] And I think it's like also, I saw this headline on LinkedIn. I wish I remembered who, who had written it, but , basically it was saying like, making the business case for diversity is anti, is anti diversity, basically. Like, and I was like, oh yeah, I didn't even read the article, but I was like, oh, no.

Julie Harris Oliver: Say, say more about that. Cause I, I feel like if you, if it, it's 2023, like if you're still needing to have the business g explained to you, like, what are you even doing? But what did you, what did you hear when you saw that

Apollo Emeka: headline? Well, I think that so many places are still so not diverse and are still so successful.

So I think it's hard to just be like, d, diversity makes better businesses. , because it's like

Julie Harris Oliver: they, they have no evidence and they're fine. Why would they believe

Apollo Emeka: it? Yeah, exactly. And so like, I think it's, it's not just a given for people because it's also, it just doesn't bear out anecdotally. You know, like there are lots of, [00:46:00] there are lots of of boards, there are lots of, , senior executive teams at big successful companies that are just as homogenous as you've ever seen, you know.

So I think like, like I, I've, I've been thinking less and less that the kind of business case for diversity is, , Is not even an effective argument at this point. But I think it's also like, like one of the things I had this massive problem with, this company that we were working with was talking about implementing software for when they're hiring that will strip away identifying, , information on resumes that'll strip names off and essentially, so that way you can't tell you, you can't tell a black sounding name, a female sounding name, a white sounding name, and it's like if you're gonna pass on a resume that says Jamal, but Jamal went to Harvard and Jamal, you know, was an ex Googler X, meta X, whatever, all the things, but his name's Jamal, and so you're gonna pass.

You're not doing yourself or Jamal any favors by like hiring him without knowing that he's [00:47:00] Jamal. Because when he gets there, that same sentiment that was like, mm, I don't know. Sounds like somebody that wouldn't really fit in here. Like you're probably right. Like so I think, yeah, that like a lot of the stuff that's done, a lot of the diversity stuff is that way.

It's like, well if we could just kind of trick people into it. Yeah, trick people into it. Jamal's gonna be miserable at your company. If you had to trick everybody on the hiring committee and to like, Oh yeah. And then like it's revealed like, oh, he is actually a black guy. Like, oh, wow, my whole life is turned upside down and now I'm, and now I, I wanna hire black people.

Like, no, that's not, that's not gonna be the case. Right. So I think that, you know, like that again, that kind of like business case, it's like it's, there's something about it that's not effective. , because there are plenty of predominantly white dominated leadership teams that are, that lead really successful companies.

And, and two, it's like, it, it fails to see just the kind of the human aspect. Of diversity and [00:48:00] seeing people as people like, wow, you might do it. If you can see it, if you can see that there's a business case for doing it. Like that is not the argument that we wanna win. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Because you'll make more money.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. Good job. And then when you don't, like, I saw this article where, , what was it? The Wall Street Journal was blaming the one black dude on the board for the, , collapse of the Silicon Valley Bank. Right. So it's like, well that was just

Julie Harris Oliver: such bullshit. I I don't know how anyone could have taken that

Apollo Emeka: seriously.

Well, I mean, it, it gets printed, right. And I mean, like, there's, oh, people keep

Julie Harris Oliver: repeating it. It was a talking point on Fox, but it's was what one black guy on the board completely disabled the power of the

Apollo Emeka: 10 other white guys. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, oh, so business case for diversity. Oh yeah. I think not Look what this guy did to Silicon Valley Bank.

So it's like, oh, they

Julie Harris Oliver: all, their focus was on diversity. It was just so ridiculous.

Apollo Emeka: So ridiculous. But it got printed right in a reputable. Paper, like, I mean, it's, it's, these ideas are still [00:49:00] unchallenged, allowed to fly, right? So I think that, you know, yeah, for me it's, it's really about, , walking it like you like, like you talk it as like, we have to do that as a company.

Like at Apollo Strategy Group, we have to walk it, like we talk it, and then we also have to win again. When you're in the room and you're like, oh, hold up. This doesn't sound right, like being able to speak up and being able to say something and then actually put something in a place that's gonna change it in a way that works for that company.

Because again, you forced diversity on people and it's gonna, it's gonna be, I think that there was a time and place for forcing diversity, and it was, it was sixties, it was civil rights. It was like, and I, and I think that a lot of people are, are still in that mindset. And we have to evolve, we have to be unrelenting in our pursuit of equity and a and of diversity.

But quotas and mandates are, are, I do not think the way to do it. I think that it's important to understand the data, but I think what really needs to happen is some tough ass conversations. That's [00:50:00] what's gotta happen because quotas and mandates, without the tough ass conversations, it's either gonna be performative or One of the things that I've seen, , in the pandemic, , PO post George Floyd's murder is, you know, the, , Minority business enterprise.

We're minority business enterprise certified. So my blackness has been proved, you know, you have to send in your birth certificate and all this stuff. And what I saw, you know, there was, there were all these pots of money allegedly earmarked for minority business enterprises. And what was happening a lot, , in the business world was they were looking for essentially tokens who they could build minority business enterprises around.

And then be like, you know, 50 50 or 51 49 splits with them because, , but then, you know, dip into these, these pots of money that were earmarked or programs that were earmarked for minority business enterprises. So again, it's like this like, It's great gross. Yeah, it's gross, [00:51:00] right? And so I think, you know, , there were a lot of, it's a cynical folks who I was having the tough ass conversations with of like, who were on the, I'm about to get 51 49 in my minority business enterprise.

I'm a black person who built my business, and now I'm about to get 51 49. So that way this big ass company will back me to go get this pot of money or this big contract or whatever. And it's like, yo, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like you're, you know, they're, they're, they're tokenizing. And so that's what I think happens.

And then, you know, you go and you have the conversations and you're just like, no, this is what it is. Like, and standing in your authenticity and saying like, we're, we're not doing, I'm not gonna be the, you know, you're not gonna be the, we're not gonna have a white shadow, c e o. , to my, to my minority business enterprise.

, and we're not gonna have backdoor deals that make it so that you get the disproportionate amount of the profits, because again, these are the conversations that we're having, , that, that we're having. Wait, wait for you, for your

Julie Harris Oliver: business or,

Apollo Emeka: [00:52:00] heck no clients. No, no, no, no. I was gonna say for clients and folks that, , that we work with.

Okay. No, no, no, no. Goodness. I was gonna say no. No. But , but yeah, so I think it's, I I'm not, I'm not even, I, I wouldn't say I'm antio, but I'm like antio without context. And it's like, you have to have the tough conversations. Very, we, we, we love having strategic conversations around diversity, like, Here's, here's what happened.

Here's the trans-Atlantic slave trade. And now look what happened hundreds of years ago, and now look, and then the sixties, and this amendment and that amendment and this, that and the other. But like, and we talk about implicit bias as a concept. We talk about all these things highly strategically.

Theoretically in ways that are safe. But when it comes time to like, yo, but everybody on your board is still a white dude, those are the conversations that we're not having. Right? And so we're just, and we are thinking that, you know, because we're tired of talking

Julie Harris Oliver: about it.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. I mean, yes. Yeah. It's [00:53:00] like, well, you saw what happened to Silicon Valley Bank.

Mm-hmm. Of course. Of, of

Julie Harris Oliver: course. They're wokeness, jug them under. How do you make that argument to a homogenous board of here's what, here's why you need to do something different.

Apollo Emeka: I guess again, we're very, very hands on in the work that we do. We're not the kind of like research and recommend type of consultants.

We are like, Hey, let's co-create a strategy and then let's help you implement that strategy. And so, , I think. You

Julie Harris Oliver: don't deliver the PowerPoints and then walk

Apollo Emeka: away. We don't do that. Like most consulting firms, we, we don't do that. , and I, I think, you know, there's some, there's some merit to having really good recommendations and having really good data.

But it's all, I mean, it's, it, it, the value of it is, is limited or, or sometimes even counterproductive if it's not, if it's, if there's no will to implement it or there's no capacity to implement. And so the way that we approach things is, is by, at each step in the process, thinking about diversity, you know, [00:54:00] at each step.

Okay, well, how is this product that you're building going to, , impact, , underestimated or disadvantaged communities? Right. Like that's a thing that you can't just put it in a mission statement or a vision statement. You have to actually make the tactical decisions of how you're constructing your product in a way that's gonna make things harder for people just because of, you know, what language they speak or, or what color their skin is or, so it's really about, at each step saying, okay, what does equity look like at this step?

You know, what does equity look like in this role, in this composition of this leadership team? So we take a really kind of, it's a, it's almost like a, how do I say it? It's, it's, it's a, we don't think about mandates and quotas. We just think about how do we, how do we keep equity in mind at each step in the implementation of your strategy?

That's it.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's the embedding equity in each step along the

Apollo Emeka: way. Yeah. And I wish that there was some magic wand for. How you do that, right? But it's, [00:55:00] it really comes down to emotions and people and, and so you have to be ready to have those conversations with people in a way that holds them accountable, but is non judgey, you know?

And that's a fine line to walk of having accountability without, without judgment. Because there's

Julie Harris Oliver: an empathy piece in there to get people to think about other people in a way that doesn't judge them for not having thought

Apollo Emeka: about other people. Exactly. But then hold them accountable. Like, okay, well now you, now you've had this conversation, right?

So like, now what are we gonna do? And even, you know, like, I expect that they're going to continue to operate the way that they have been operating, right? So like I go in with that expectation that they're, even now they know, or they've thought about it or they've said they care or whatever. I expect that their behavior is not going to change.

And so I am, but I, but it must, right? And so, like, and it's not like we, we, we are successful every time, or like all the companies that we work with just look like the [00:56:00] United Nations. But we, we try to be as thoughtful as possible in moving and moving people out of their comfort zones and, and towards more diversity.

Well, cuz it's a,

Julie Harris Oliver: it's a shift in thinking. And I think going back to the, embedding it every step along the way. Cause there's a shift of, oh, I get it. I'm gonna do better. We're gonna do some diversity work on the side after we get done with all of these business objectives that we're going to do. And it's a matter of pulling them back and being like, no, wait a minute.

You're going to do the diversity work in every step of this Yeah. Business strategy that you're doing. Exactly. It's not gonna

Apollo Emeka: be on the side later. Exactly. Exactly. And you know, I think when, when there's opportunities, when companies are, you know, now it's, it's a little tougher because. Most of the companies that we were, are working with are, are contracting rather than expanding.

But when people are hiring, I feel like that's, it's really, , and again, in the way that we work, it's really easy when people are hiring cuz you can just, oh, we're gonna change the kind of, we're gonna change the makeup and we're also gonna [00:57:00] help to create venues for conversations where, you know, where these diverse personalities can, can come out.

So it's not just about getting visual diversity, but it is like, oh shoot. Yeah, this person does have a perspective that we don't have and like, we need to honor that. But if you, if you hire and you don't create the venues for the, to have unexpected conversations, then, then it's, it's gonna be painful for everyone.

Yeah. Well if you

Julie Harris Oliver: have, you know, seven guys in the room who all went to the same school and were in the same fraternity, what is the point of hiring an eighth one? Yeah. How does that help you?

Apollo Emeka: Well, I mean, the thing that's tough is it is really freaking helpful. Like, that's the thing that's tough is it, is actually helpful.

It's a certain type of help, but like, again, you, you can't point to all these companies where there are plenty of companies that we've actually, I've, I've been like, Hey, please stop. I've had to say, , to one of, one of my favorite clients. I'm like, please stop sending me companies of all [00:58:00] white dudes. Like, and the, there are these companies that are skyrocketing and it is literally, It's literally a bunch of white guys.

So to it, it's, we can't just make the blanket statement that like, you're gonna be better off hiring diverse because in the short run, at the very least, you're probably gonna be just fine with all, with all your white guys. I think that you're gonna be just fine, like I said in the short term. But I think that the companies that employ the most, the most diversity are gonna win out in the long run.

And are, are the ones who come in and are positioned to be the massive market disruptors that just transform industries, you know, that just wipe you out, you know? , so I think that, again, the, the business case is a little tenuous, , in, in the short term cuz yeah, you hire so-and-so who also went to Harvard and was also in the same fraternity and also summered in France.

And also, also also, like you

Julie Harris Oliver: have a shorthand, you're gonna make the thing quick.

Apollo Emeka: Yeah. Yeah. It's like they know all the same people, [00:59:00] you know, or the same kinds of people that you know, and so they're gonna be able to bring them to the company. Like it's, it's, you can't just say like you're to, like right now, your company is gonna go under if you don't diversify.

No. But when it

Julie Harris Oliver: comes to, when you're going to have to really innovate and be creative and think about things maybe from a different angle than you always have. Yeah, absolutely. And also try to avoid setting up that, that bro culture that's gonna take you

Apollo Emeka: under in different ways. For sure. Yeah, for sure.

For sure. Yeah. I mean, and unlocking, obviously we know unlocking market segments and things like that. It's that diverse pieces is really important as well.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Now what have I not asked you about that I should have asked you about? Cause I've had you for a lot of time

Apollo Emeka: now. Yeah, I know. I feel like I talked so much.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, you're on a podcast, so that's the ideal behavior.

Tell me about, , you just started a podcast.

Apollo Emeka: Tell me about that. [01:00:00] Yeah, so I'm, I'm really excited about the podcast that, , that we just launched. It's called The Achievement Index, and, , it shares a name with this assessment that I developed in my doctoral work. And basically the underlying premise of the Achievement Index is it measures how well you do three things, prioritize, leverage, and execute.

Because in my work, I found that those are the three things that you have to do really well. In order to, in order to be successful, you have to prioritize meaning, , you have to know what matters and why it matters. Know what you're, you know what you seek to do. You have to leverage, which means where, whereas in the prioritize, , dimension.

You're thinking about, , you're thinking really ambitiously and you're thinking about, oh man, which mountain topic am I gonna take? What, what flag am I gonna, , what, what mountain topic am I gonna plant my flag on? And then on the leverage side, you're thinking really lazy. You, you take your ambitious hat off and you put your lazy hat on and you say, okay, wait.

What's the easiest way that I can get to the top of that mountain? [01:01:00] And, , so that's, that's leverage. And we look, explain that a little more.

Julie Harris Oliver: Cause I was reading up on this from you and I still, I, I'm not sure, I'm still totally clear on what do you mean by leverage? Leverage What?

Apollo Emeka: So leverage, , leverage has four components.

Technology, information, people, and systems. So you've got a goal, right? You've gotta, and, and we call this the base camp. You're building out your base camp at the bottom of the mountain, which is your technology information, people, and systems that are gonna make climbing that mountain easy. So it's like, okay, well how can we use technology to make climbing this mountain easy?

How can we use information to make climbing this, this mountain easy? How can we leverage people or how can we leverage systems to make climbing this mountain easy? And then the execute is all about charting the course up the mountain and then actually taking the steps up the mountain. And so it's about figuring out who's gonna do what by when, basically, which you know, who's gonna leverage what by when to get to the top of the mountain.

And I've found that people, they tend towards one of the three more [01:02:00] than the others. You know, so like myself, I'm heavy prioritize, I'm something like 84% prioritize, 8% leverage, and 8% execute. So I love sitting down at the bottom of the mountain, looking at the mountain ranges and trying to decide, you know, where is it that, which, which mountain top are we gonna take?

And so, yeah, you, you know, the, the, the folks who we have on the podcast are diverse, diverse founders and, and leaders who take the assessment. And then we come on and we kind of just talk through all of the things that they've done through the lens of their results. So it's like, hey, You have, oh, interesting.

4% execute, but you've managed to raise 250 million and build all these cu, you know, companies. How did you get that done when you're, when you are like, you're a big leverager or you're a big prioritizer and not so much an executor? And, , yeah. We just, we, our first handful of guests have been just these amazing, amazing black and brown founders who have just done awesome stuff, especially in the, in the VC space, in the venture [01:03:00] space, , but internationally, , and have, have, have made big things happen.

So it's really cool to be able to have them take this assessment to see their results, to have them process their results and then say, yeah, how did you, how did you do that? And so every show, we also have these kind of actionable takeaways. So you can also take the achievement index assessment as well.

And then kind of like if you match up with one of the guests, then you, , Then they're basically doling out advice for you from, you know, for your kind of personality type. , so it's a really fun show and it's been an amazing experience so far.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Can I go take that? Where can I take

Apollo Emeka: it? Yeah. The achievement index.com.

The achievement index.com, , is where you can take the assessment and it's also, if you go to the achievement index, wherever you get your podcast, the link to the, , to the assessment is in the show notes as well.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. That is super fun. How else or where else can people find you?

Apollo Emeka: LinkedIn [01:04:00] is basically my Facebook.

All of my personal stuff. Everything I, LinkedIn is like the only place I look anymore. So yeah, if you wanna find me, find me on LinkedIn. I am on there like, as much as anybody else is on, , Facebook or Instagram or TikTok. I read all my dms, I respond, I. , dole out, , recommendations for people who hit me up in my dms and want connections.

Careful what you wish for. So, so feel free to hit me up.

Julie Harris Oliver: Anything you wanna leave us with, any advice,

Apollo Emeka: I'll leave you with. What makes you different, makes you strong. Love yourself, so that way all parts of yourself, so that way your subconscious knows to access all parts of yourself and to bring that to bear at whatever task is at hand.

I love it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Apollo Emeka, doctor Apollo, Emeka, thank you so much.

Apollo Emeka: Thanks, Julie.

Julie Harris Oliver: You've been listening to the other 50% a Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. Thank you to Dr. Apollo Emeka for the [01:05:00] conversation. Special thanks to Jay Rowe, Danny Rosner and Allison McQuaid for the music. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcast and rate and leave a review.

If you have a company and would like to sponsor the podcast, please reach out. You can find me in my work @julieharrisoliver.com. If you're looking for simple, yet effective tools to bring to your production or even just want some help in starting to talk about it, give me a call. I'd love to work with you.

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