EP 225: Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque
Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] You're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. We are continuing our series of talking with experts who work in various aspects of diversity, equity, and inclusion across industries and in entertainment. Specifically today, I sat down with Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque is a licensed psychologist with over a decade of experience furthering equity focused initiatives.
Her research interests have focused on the mental health impacts of racial discrimination on black Americans, with an emphasis on the intersections of trauma and gender. Currently, Dr. Thelemaque owns a Bay Area therapy practice, in addition to holding numerous roles within the psychological community. She works with renowned mental health organizations, including the National Center for P T S D as a mobile applications tester, content writer, and subject matter expert on the issues of race.
She maintains a leadership role within the California Psychological Association as the chair-elect of the division for Diversity and social justice. [00:01:00] Additionally, she collaborates with individuals in various organizations As a diversity, equity, and inclusion consultant, her focus is on developing psychologically safe trauma informed work environments, and navigating racial trauma and people of color.
She is amazing. We are so lucky to have her on the podcast here. Have a listen, see what they wanna see. Welcome Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque to the other 50%. It's so nice to see you.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: It's lovely to be here with you and see you. This is really exciting. Just happy to jump into.
Julie Harris Oliver: Now, I know you do a lot of work in therapy and mental health, in trauma, in, in so many things, but maybe you could tell us in your own words kind of the focus of your work and what you do.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: That's a great question cuz I do a little bit of everything. I say a jack of all trades, a master of some. So, um, in terms of what I. . My goal overall is just to make more safe and equitable spaces and for people who are, especially at the [00:02:00] margins, to feel empowered to do their breast work, which isn't just traditional work.
It's their work and life, how they're moving through relationships, and how they're navigating all the things around them. So that involves doing work clinically and in therapy that's focused on like centering values and figuring out where you wanna be and getting the skills, knowledge, and awareness of yourself to be able to get through it.
Um, and since I have a trauma background, that also involves working through some of those traumas and other things that might be impacting you. And then when I do my consulting and other type of work, it's really focused. Education around those things. Helping people to connect and hopefully giving them some empowering tools so they can move forward and impacting their circles.
Cuz I think we can all be leaders and shift and change dynamics, but it has to be a collective process where we're all doing our own individual work and working together. So that's always my goal and that looks different in each setting based on who the group is, but that's kind of the [00:03:00] underlying process.
Julie Harris Oliver: You are doing the important work of the world, , helping everyone keep it together. ,
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: that's the goal. Does it always work?
Julie Harris Oliver: I know you also work with people who work in production and you know, it's an industry that really prides itself on. Grit, , you know, people working really hard, people working really long hours.
It's really hard, like for some reason it's, even if you're doing the the most lighthearted comedic project, there's still an incredible amount of pressure, incredible amount of hours. And then if you're working on. Really traumatic content or in really difficult circumstances, you know, there's this whole range of what people go through in production and so I would love it if we could talk a little bit, I know one of your specialties is, uh, trauma, you know, and what does that, what does that look like across the board?
And I know you've worked with people in production, so kind of what does that look like in production for people? The longest question in the world? ,
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: but a great question. [00:04:00] Um, so when I think of. It's hard to have just one specific definition that works for everybody. There's a clinical definition, meaning it's, you know, reached a certain threshold where you might get a mental health diagnosis, a trauma related or stress related diagnosis.
And that's usually when it's a life-threatening event or it's kind of real or a threatened kind of violence that occurs or something that's really we'll. Can lead to an injury, something pretty extreme. So, and that could include witnessing it and that could include like learning about something that happened very suddenly.
So there's that kind of one end of the spectrum. And then there's another end of the spectrum that can be the daily life stressors that take a toll on our body and our mental health. So stress is normal, natural. Even if we're doing something we love and enjoy, it's gonna be stressful. Our body's going to react to it.
Our heart rate might go up. We might get a little sweaty. It might be hard to focus, it might even be [00:05:00] hard to sleep. You know, we can always think of those exciting nights, um, before something big where we just really can't relax. We we're so restless and it's so difficult. . That's just our body reacting to stress when we think about trauma.
It's just more extreme stressor that has, uh, a bigger impact on us. And there can be some after effects of that. As I mentioned, like issues with sleep, issues with concentration, your memory starts to go out the window a bit cuz if you're not focusing, you're not gonna remember things. And there's always a sense of.
Feeling like it's never enough to you, which I think can be big. So when I think of productions and the work that's being done and entertainment, it's a lot of very long hours, tight schedules, a lot of things happening at once. And you're trying to not only do your job, but you're also trying to process everything that's happening.
And there's 50 different pieces or more at times that have to come together for you to get the right scene, the right [00:06:00] shot, and to be able to move through the process. So when I'm thinking about. Trauma and stress and looking at it from a production. , there can be some situations, there might be more trauma inducing.
There can be, um, based on our own background and experiences, our childhood experiences and I should say trauma is, and having, they call them like adverse childhood experiences or events, um, like having some forms of abuse and neglect and all of that. Quite common, unfortunately.
Julie Harris Oliver: I know a lot of people have gone through that list.
You know, as that list has gone through the internet and been like, oh God, I ticked five or six things. I didn't realize I had childhood trauma, you know? We're so conditioned to just keep on keeping on not realizing how these things affect us.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Exactly. In many ways, a lot of us have gone through a lot of things, most of us have.
Um, it's very rare for somebody to say, I have absolutely no bad experiences in life. Nothing that would, I'm fine. Yeah, [00:07:00] totally fine. Nothing has happened. Life is perfect. So knowing. You know, stress doesn't discriminate. It's also important to acknowledge stress is not equally distributed across our population.
Mm-hmm. . So we know that if you are, for example, woman, you're more likely to have, you know, these adverse events, these traumatic events. Than, um, your male counterparts. Um, or if you're part of the LGBTQ plus spectrum, there's going to be certain things that you experience that your, um, heterosexual or cisgender counterparts won't experience.
And if you're a person of color, you know, there will be things that you'll be exposed to at higher rates, some of your white counterparts. So in many ways, um, when we're thinking about how this shows. On a production where there's a variety of people with their different backgrounds, their life experiences, and that exposure to all of that heightened stress and potential traumas, it really can come to a point where people may be not speaking up for what they need.
Maybe being more short, more [00:08:00] irritable, might be having issues that kind of bubble over and you're like, that seems so small. Why were we having this big deal out of it? You know, why are we yelling right now? Why Yes. Why is someone yelling? Yes. And I come from a family that yells, I'm fine with yelling , but I grew up in Jersey.
It's a thing we're very loud, but in many ways, knowing that we have all of these things we're bringing into it that it's not that we exist in a vacuum. It's important to recognize how our mental health, how our traumas, how the other stressors happening in our lives might be compressed when we're in this really tight, potentially stressful and by potentially absolutely stressful environment on our production and working in entertainment and.
Knowing that you'll have so many people also looking at your work, like there's additional pressures that happen that compound. All of those previous things are also impacting us every day.
Julie Harris Oliver: There's like an extra layer of vulnerability also as you're doing [00:09:00] creative work and showing the thing that you created, whether you're in costumes or makeup or hair or construction, or there's always someone who will have something to say about the thing you created.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Absolutely, and knowing that. , that's gonna raise your anxiety potentially if something goes wrong on the day. Like maybe you had a really great plan, you were like, this is how the hair's gonna be. Here's what the costume, like every detail and something doesn't work out, something goes wrong. But you still have to go on, like the show has to go on in many ways.
Pivot. Pivot. Yeah. It's constant stress going into it. And we are humans. Mistakes will happen, issues will come up. We always have to figure out how to rebound from them. But in many ways, if we're not considering the many types of stresses that might come in and doing that continual work to make sure we're taking care of ourselves individually and collectively, it's gonna lead to a lot more hardship than would be necessary.
Pain is a part of life, but we don't have to.
Julie Harris Oliver: I [00:10:00] love that. Now, is it true that this will also accumulate over time? Like it may not feel that big of a deal show by show, but then 20 years have gone. and it does it build up that way?
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. When we think about things like trauma, it can be very cumulative. If we think about stressors, it's can build up over time.
I always like to think about, and mind you, I haven't worked out in a while, so we'll acknowledge that. But , when you're working out and you're building up a new muscle, you know that that is kind of. Uh, stress tears might happen and then you rebuild and you build. But you're, if you are not being mindful of how you engage, how you're rebuilding, like eating more protein and having rest days, you know that that will just turn into a bigger injury and you might break something or tear something that then you might need surgery for.
So if we take that example, , you know, mental health is similar. That if we're not doing those constant checks and making sure like, okay, we had a bit of stressor that could be good or bad. You know, like [00:11:00] how are we healing from it? How are we taking care of ourselves? It becomes something that is a lot bigger and we'll require a lot more of our attention to take care of
Julie Harris Oliver: now how, let's talk about how you do heal that.
Cause I think there's a lot of talk in this business about, you know, you need to take care of your body. You need to watch what you're eating. You need to not be at craft service all day long. You really have to make an effort to sleep. But there's not a lot of talk about how are you also caring for your mental health as part of it.
So what would you suggest?
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah, and I should say, I think all those are great suggestions. Um, in terms of making sure you we're against your physical health. Yes. Yeah. Physical health is really important cuz it is tied to our mental health. But in many ways, I think if we just focus on the physical, we miss out on a, a huge part of it.
If we're just saying you should eat a certain way, but we're. Having conversations with, like, everybody has their own version of health and you know, what are some things, um, causing you to be engaging in a certain way, we won't really get a good solution. So I'm always thinking about [00:12:00] healing in terms of.
This is, it's funny cuz I'm going to, as I give this advice, I'm like, this is gonna sound so basic, but doing daily check-ins with yourself, I always like to have ritual. So I think ritual can be so important to reregulate ourselves, uh, especially in this day and age where you might be doing some things in a hybrid method where you might be doing some things remotely, some things in person.
You're meeting new people all the time. There's a lot of engagement happening. So you want to have a nice virtual starting your day where you. Do some meditation. You might just take a few deep breaths. I'm always a fan of if you want to read, if you wanna listen to music, things that allow you to really transition, ease into your day, because there's gonna be a lot of.
Moving quickly and a lot of stressors going on during, and I know also if you are shooting or filming those days, start very early . This might be like four or five in the morning where you're like, let me get myself ready. So having any kind of ritual allows you to feel prepared. And then at the end of the day, I always like tap a ritual when I'm [00:13:00] transitioning back into other parts of my life.
So if you can think about. Having clothes that you take off. I will say this, my mom always said, you need to have like in the house clothes, not of the house clothes. . That might be a like black Caribbean thing. Um, but I, but also take your shoes off. Yes. number one. It's also less mess and easier to actually clean.
But yes, just having that where I'm like, oh, when I wear this outfit, this is, I'm in work mode. When I change into a different pair of clothes, maybe it's my favorite sweatpants. Maybe it's like a really loose flaunty blouse that I'm just like, and this is what I eat. Dinner in , whatever it is.
Julie Harris Oliver: We, we, we take our bra off.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes. . Yes. Take your bra off. Which is always my favorite part of the end of the day, honestly.
Julie Harris Oliver: It's a marker. It's a marker.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes. I'm just saying Yes. And you just figure out what your. Ritual is how it feels to shift out of that space and [00:14:00] really give yourself the opportunity to say, I'm in a new environment.
Let me not carry some of that stress in. And if you are feeling it coming up, I'm always a fan of writing it out or even setting worry time, especially if you're somebody who's more anxious. What I mean by that is cause I saw your face . You just were like, huh, where are you? Time? But where, what I mean by that is that, um, I felt that deeply.
When you actually are trying to go to bed at night and you're just like, oh, but I have to do that. Oh, but there's this, there's so many things to worry about every day, and if you said, I'm not gonna worry about this at 9:00 PM I'm gonna worry about this at 6:00 PM like, I will find a time and I'll schedule it in just like a meeting and I will write out all the things that I'm worried about.
And I'll actually say, is this workable? Are there things that I actually do need to handle and need to have them handle tonight? Or are there things that I can schedule out, things to be aware of, people I can talk to, support I can get? Cause you don't wanna do it all on your own and that can free [00:15:00] up your mind.
When you're trying to rest at night to say, oh, I don't need to worry about this now. I have 6:00 PM tomorrow to worry about this. And if there's something really important, you might jot it down. I always like to say in whatever your notes file is on your phone, or um, if you have a notebook, a physical notebook near you to jot down some things and you're like, this is my worry journal.
Worry about this later. And you can kind of put things down. But it's really about how do you settle into your body and your. Day to day, and if you're at work, you might need to take some deep breaths. Maybe you jot down some of those things that are on your mind that you're worrying about or coming up, but really figuring out how do you put some, some of those things down so you can pick up the things that are important to you in that moment.
Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. I'm definitely trying that cuz I am a person who will, the minute my head hits the pillow, start processing my whole day and obsessing . I, I'm gonna enjoy writing it down and not doing that. I will, I will check back and let you know how that goes. Please do. I also wanna talk about, you know, in, in production there's different, there's [00:16:00] different genres, there's different, you know, working on a game show is probably very different from, um, a documentary about something really traumatic or, or a docudrama or something like that.
And I know you've done some work with, uh, like producers who are working on documentaries or dofollow. Because there's the one piece is you're dealing with subjects who are in or have gone through trauma that you need to take care of. And also that can be very triggering for you as a producer experiencing that with them.
So you also need to take care of yourself. So how, how do you advise people to kind of handle both of those pieces and that kind
of content?
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah, I'll say, and there's a couple of different productions and, and different people that I've worked with that came to mind, but I found that just having the conversation was really important to acknowledge what was going on.
To say like, oh, this can be heavy and I want to also do this work with care while I'm taking care of myself. [00:17:00] That can just go a long way and figuring out what are those social supports you'll need to have in place to make that a possibility. Cuz I think if we feel like we have to do it individually, like.
I'm the producer. I have to just keep going. And once we get done with this, then I'll focus on myself. That might never happen. There will always be another thing that comes up. There's post-production, there's this and that. So I found that having those conversations before filming starts is really important and figuring out like what do we have in place?
If that's an e, a P, meaning employee assistance program, where people can have maybe some mental health treatment that they can access if they. , having a one-time person they can talk to goes a long way. Even as I mentioned, having some of those routines and rituals can be really important and grounding as you're going through a lot to say, what can I do to ground myself if that's going for a walk?
Um, if you're physically able to, if that's kind of settling into it and then figuring out if you know that there will be [00:18:00] certain things that will be particularly triggering for you to have a little bit more care on those. Naturally our body is going to be a little bit more riled up. We'll say your blood pressure might be higher, you might be a little bit more on edge.
Like our body kind of reacts to it cuz we're sensing a, a danger or we're sensing a kind of threat, whether that be actual or, you know, um, related to our past experiences. So I'm always a fan. Planning ahead. That might be my Cat Moon, Virgo ASC ending, but , I'm, that might just be me, but I'm always a fan of saying, okay, I know today will be a particularly difficult day.
We're gonna be listening to a lot of stories. I'm gonna be taking a lot in, I wanna give people space to have conversations. That can, um, be those times where you want to take a step back and take a little bit more care of yourself. You might say, oh, let me not plan anything else after this. Let me give myself some decompression time and have a good friend or [00:19:00] colleague that I trust who would understand my experience that I'm gonna call and talk to about it.
And just really figure out what it means to have confidants. And I think framing is so important. I think we always think about framing in terms of, uh, a shot or, you know, things we're doing. But framing your day, framing your conversations, framing what you're gonna do, and setting an intention can go a long way.
And that includes when you're working with your subjects as well, if you can tell them. I know we're gonna get into some difficult things. I know tears might come, emotions might rise. That's okay. Giving yourself and others permission to have those emotions goes such a long way in terms of feeling comfortable easing into it, rather than sensing it as more of a threat than it needs to be.
Julie Harris Oliver: I love that. And at the part about planning ahead reminded me, I, I recently heard Tracy Ellis Ross not a podcast talking about, um, you know, she's fairly introverted. You wouldn't know it. Seeing her out in the world. But that takes a lot out of her, you know, as it does for introverts. And it, she knows if she has a big event or a big day, she [00:20:00] schedules the next day to have nothing.
To have her support system with her so that she can process the day. Because you know, you're always looking back thinking, oh God, what did I say? What did I wear? How did I look? Blah, blah, blah. And, and she schedules that timeout. I'm so smart knowing I love that, what she needs to do, take care of herself.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. And I think that's also particularly powerful when you're dealing with someone to just to name it. This is gonna be hard, and we're, we're in this together. I'm here for you. Let's, let's do the super brave thing and, and go through it.
Julie Harris Oliver: And then I think there's a piece right at the end not to be like, cut.
Okay, lunch. Gotta go, , walk away. I, I, it feels like there's a moment after that to kind of, I always talk about it like, You've opened someone up, you kind of need to close 'em back up before sending them off in the world, right?
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes, absolutely. And how do you kinda do that? Absolutely. I, and this is what I do as a clinician all the time, cuz people will come to me with the big emotions, we'll say, um, or will uncover things that we weren't expecting to uncover.
And the unexpected can feel really [00:21:00] difficult to really close up. I'm always a fan of saying, let's just do a couple deep breath. because physiologically when we're in that state, our blood pressure rises. It's harder to take deep breaths, actually, and our blood vessels get a bit more constricted, but they shift.
So it can be really important to just say, we're gonna take five seconds and take three really deep breaths and just say, how was that? Let's just take a minute to just reflect and if there's anything you wanna shift, change or any feedback you wanna give, I'm open. But just leaving it for people to get back down to their kind of normal, whatever that is for them, um, can be really helpful.
And just acknowledging like, this might be challenging for the next day or two. You might need a little bit more support. Let's actually think about that. Like I love what traces Ross is doing cuz that. Exactly what I would say, duke, that is perfect, which is knowing yourself and doing what you need to [00:22:00] to take care of yourself.
And setting aside that time and scheduling it in. I mean, again, love a good schedule. So that really resonates.
Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and knowing, uh, sometimes you're going to have a vulnerability hangover. I think Brene Brown talks about the vulnerability hangover, and as soon as I heard that term, I was like, oh yes. I've often had a vulnerability hangover, especially podcasting.
I know sometimes my guests have a vulnerability hangover and we'll talk the next day, you know, to kind of process through it cuz it's, you know, it's intimate and it's a lot sometimes. Yeah. It's, it's so important to
take care of yourself.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. Debriefing is so,
Julie Harris Oliver: Let's also talk about racial or identity trauma being in majority white spaces because I think there's a perception amongst well-meaning white people and that if I'm just very nice, then no one should have a problem and we're all just fine.
And um, you know, we talked to Dr. Banks recently who said, you can't nice your way out of racism. And also, I think we have this false sense [00:23:00] of, well, everybody's comfortable and everybody's acting like they're fine. So as long as we're nice. , everybody's fine. I suspect that's not actually the case, so maybe you can , maybe you can talk about what that's really like for people being the only in the room or being one of few and based
on your identity.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. I always am reminded of, it's kind of like culture shock or I always think of the first time I moved to, so I went to grad school in St. Louis and I grew up in New Jersey, and so coming to the Midwest. Was very different for me. And I realized like, wow, there's a learning curve here. There are just things that I don't know that I don't know, , and I'm constantly off balance just a little bit.
Julie Harris Oliver: Like my jokes aren't quite landing.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes. The way I interact with people. It isn't quite, I mean, I get that a
lot. . Absolutely. And you've lived in New York cause you know, the Jersey, New York kind of energy and vibe. Um, yeah. So even walking into a room and just being more. and that not being [00:24:00] received well, and you're like, I am so confused.
I always like to think that when we are the only, we oftentimes will go back to that sense of anxiety that you have as you enter into a room and everything slightly off and you're not really sure why. It's kind of like. Knowing that anything you do will also be under a bit of a microscope because people will be expecting certain things of you, and you might live up to those expectations or not, but you're constantly aware that there are expectations, so you can never fully relax.
It's like taking a test, but it's a pop quiz every day. You know, there's a , you know, there's an exam coming, you don't know what the test is, you don't know what it is, and you have it studied and you're just constantly going with that sense of unease cuz you're waiting for the, for the other shoe to drop and say, okay, and now we're taking the test and now we're doing this.
So in many ways, when we're the only. In a space, it can feel very unsafe cuz you're not really sure what everybody's intentions are. You're not really sure if it's safe to fully be yourself [00:25:00] and you're not really sure if people will receive you well when you are yourself because of their preexisting expectations of you.
So in many ways, being nice, sounds great, , it sounds ideal, but your version of niceness might be the same thing that puts somebody else on edge. So it'll be really important to. Set intentions in a space, consider that people probably will come in a little bit more on guard, a little bit uneasy, just as you would in any new social setting, when you don't really know anybody in the room if you're introduced.
I love my metaphor, so apologies if I give you too many , but bring it. Bring it. I always think it's just like when you go to a party and maybe you have a new partner and you're meeting all their. You're going to be really on edge. Like I wanna make a good impression. I don't know who these people are. I don't know all these inside jokes, everybody has these things.
So in that same way, if you approached everyone who might be the only in the space as someone trying to make a good impression, [00:26:00] while also wanting to be comfortable, be at ease, try to be themselves while also not being too much of themselves and really relating to it like a new person at a party. You would have a little bit more empathy for that concern, and you really want to, instead of saying, why are we talking about race?
Why does this apply? We shouldn't be bringing it in at all to say, how does it apply? How is it shifting somebody's experience potentially? , are there differences in this space? Why is there only one person of this identity in this space? Like, let's have those conversations and that analysis and we can still come up and say, I, I know that you're probably feeling on edge.
I know this is probably like a scary new situation, or maybe something you've dealt with many times, but I wanna just let you know I'm here, I'm present, I see the dynamics. I'm gonna try to be helpful. Feel free to come to me if you need that support. You know, really figuring out what it means to show up for people.
and then also maybe shift those, uh, underlying systems and structures and make it so there's only one person of that [00:27:00] identity in the room. That would be great. Right?
That, that's a really important question of let's,
let's address that. Why have we created the situation and then what are the things that we can do to, um, Change it.
Yeah. I think this is part of the culture work that we're trying to do on productions and why we talk so much about, it's so important to focus on equity and it's so important to focus on inclusion in order to create an environment where diversity can occur and be successful. . And so what, what are some of the things that people can actually do besides being nice, uh, to create a real equitable and inclusive environment?
Well, I think the first thing that I kind of modeled was ask people how they actually feel in that space. A lot of times people will know what allows 'em to feel more comfortable, and if you can make approximations to it, That goes a long way. In all of the trainings we've done, the workshops we've put together and the feedback I've received from cast crew and other folks, um, on a [00:28:00] production.
Most people just say having somebody ask their opinion goes a long way. Somebody knowing their name and not just referring to them as their department. Goes a really long way. People touching base and asking, do you need more help, mentorship, or support. Um, and especially those who might be more senior or have more leadership or might have just been there for an extra season or two than somebody else, them coming in and purposefully inviting them into a conversation does so much.
So if that's the somebody's first day saying, Hey, I know that you're. Let me introduce you to so-and-so. Um, would you be open to me providing you with some support? I'm always a fan of consent. I love consent and all things. So asking. First, somebody might say, no, I'm good. Or they might say, yes, thank you so much.
I've been waiting for someone to come up to me. But you give them the opportunity to open up, to connect, and for you to potentially support them. And that goes so far in terms of feeling people, feeling [00:29:00] included and if issues come up, which they will as you were going through all of this stress. You know, situations, as we mentioned, trauma, stress, all those things from our background coming forward, it helps if you actually have a personal connection with somebody, if you care about them in some regard, if that's caring about the relationship you have with them, how you wanna move forward, you're more likely to actually have a personal conversation.
if something comes up, you're more likely to get that feedback if you've messed up. And that goes a long way in making sure that you don't continue to do any unintentional harm. And it makes it so that people know that it's a space where they can show up how they need to, which, you know, there are different norms and standards for every, you know, sector, department, place, but they know they can at least.
Talk about it, have a conversation if something comes in and that avoids a lot of heartache, headaches, and issues later, typically we don't want to, um, deal with something after the [00:30:00] fact. It's better to deal with it in the moment or immediately after.
Julie Harris Oliver: And I think that is one of the big arguments for it. I mean, on the one hand, I always sarcastically say, you know, the good news is.
The bar is so low that there's plenty of opportunity, you know, if the bar is learn someone's name and say hello, you can do that. Um, and I'm also, you know, as I'm listening to you, I'm also listening with the head of like, someone who's very busy in production and, oh, that's time I don't have, and that's.
I'm too busy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I, I think where we are kind of in generations and in the culture and in and the land where people wanna talk about these things, it's gonna take you so much more time later, as you said, to untangle the mess that got made because you haven't taken the time to set an inclusive environment and set a culture where people could show up, be themselves, be heard.
Say the things, it's gonna be so much harder on the other side, it'd take you so much more time. So if anything, out of self-preservation, , take that moment at the [00:31:00] beginning to learn someone's name. Say hello, welcome. What are your aspirations? How can I help you? Yes. And also, you know, do a good job.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes. I'm, if we talk, use that same metaphor of working out, you just.
Icing your muscles for a day might save you from having a huge injury and a surgery later. And I'm also reminded exactly, you know, I come from a working class background, we'll say. And I remember anytime I had a slight cough, I'd be my, my dad and my mom be like, we're going to the doctor. I'm like, why?
I'm not that sick. And they were like, who's gonna pay for the hospital bill if it is something serious? We don't have money for that, but we have money for a copay that's. . That's good. Take care of it now. And we nip it in the bud and then we won't have like a huge disastrous thing later that we didn't anticipate, but we could have intervened in.
So in that same way, catch it when it's a cult before it becomes something much worse. We don't wanna have. Huge bills and other [00:32:00] issues and hurt feelings that you can't really recover from or come back from when you could have just taken those 10 seconds to say hello, 10 minutes to learn somebody's goals and motivations or you know, 10 hours to really devote to seeing everybody as full and authentic people rather than just.
little cogs or just like, you know, ponds in a chess game to be moved around in a specific place to make production happen.
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. And, and I think people who work in production have been through, seen, witnessed, heard about enough disasters, you know, enough horrific circumstances that, um, that really pays to take that moment and.
Yeah. Can we, can we talk for a minute about microaggressions? I know there's a lot of talk about it now and people certainly throw the term around all the time. , oh, you're microaggression me, you know, and, uh, but also it's real and it adds up and can cause trauma over time. So could you just give a quick overview [00:33:00] of what really is a microaggression?
What does it look?
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Sure. When I think of microaggressions, we wanna think of them as everyday verbal, non-verbal or environmental, slight snubs or insults that communicate hostile or negative messages to people who are targeted and they can be unintentional or intentional. So when I think about, uh, an unintentional slight, Um, I always get the like, wow, you did a good job.
Like it's a surprise . Um, you know, that can be a slight, that might happen. That could be unintentionally trying to compliment somebody. And when there can be microaggressions for a variety of our identities, there can be gender-based microaggressions, like assuming that, for example, a woman can't carry something that's heavy and maybe making constant comments about it, or that surprise around.
Questioning if they can even do their job, if they're in a position like camera, for example, in the camera department where they cameras are a voice. Yes. And so you're just shocked when somebody can do their job Well. Um, we can have [00:34:00] microaggressions related to our race, and that could be, um, for me, I used to get this a lot since I've been talking about it, I get it a lot less, which I appreciate, which is people being like, wow, you're so articul.
As if I shouldn't be amazing and Right. They're confused. And typically microaggressions come from like a history. Um, that might focus on pressure and marginalization or just differences among people. So people having the articulate comment that comes from a history of assuming that black people specifically are less intelligent.
Um, the comment about women, it's assuming that women are less capable and it's coming from a history of women being physically limited and what they could do and what they're allowed to do. So all of these have a history to it, and you might. That was just a little thing like that doesn't really matter.
That was a throwaway comment. So being overly sensitive, but really if you get that day in and day out, it takes a toll. And a lot of the researchers who who coin [00:35:00] the term and really develop it, talk about is death by a thousand paper cuts. Because it's not just one thing that happens, it's that you get another one and another one, another one.
It turns to such a bigger wound and it becomes much harder to. At that point, again, we keep talking about these little things that add up and accumulate those stressors that really take a toll. And if you're already, for example, the only in a space. You don't feel fully comfortable. Let's say you're the only woman that's walked in a certain department.
They keep making comments about what you can and can't do, and then over time you're gonna think, well, now I just, I don't belong here. I shouldn't be here. Because you're gonna constantly get those comments and remarks that really eat away at your feeling of feeling included. Also, eat away at your psychological safety, so you're not gonna feel like you can say what you want to or need to in a.
and have that be taken well, cuz you know that people are coming in with a lot of stereotypes themselves about how you should [00:36:00] be. So it really highlights that there can be a lot of issues. And again, they could be unintentional. You could be a very, like a nice, thoughtful person and engage in a microaggression and get things wrong.
I get things wrong every day, but because I'm open to it, I can always shift and change and repair and have a conversation and move forward. And so I always want for people not to get stuck on the mistakes they make. Cuz if they're like, well, I should just give up. Because I'm gonna make a microaggression.
It's like, no, we really wanna focus on the fact that most people can recover from it. That this is not, um, an end all, be all. It's actually just a mistake that happens and you can recover from your mistakes. Not recovery is so much more important than the mistake itself,
Julie Harris Oliver: I've found. Um, since knowing you and since , having this education about microaggressions, catching myself lots of times doing it.
Then being so hard on myself about it and taking the time to apologize. And it feels like [00:37:00] why? Why do I keep making these mistakes when I certainly know better at this point? But there are so many unexamined stereotypes that we are just brought up with and indoctrinated with. It just freezes that come outta your mouth without thought.
Um, and I have a very poor filter these days, and. Just always, I, I find that catching, catching them and apologizing, like kind of heals the moment for everybody. And I've been afforded more grace than I deserve doing that. But it does feel terrible. , oh yes. I'm sure to receive them and to give them, and the, the whole thing.
But I think it's something that we just all have to keep working through until everybody just knocks it off.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. And I think about it like, uh, stepping on someone. Chew. When you're out in public, like if you're not paying attentions, you're gonna do the thing that you might naturally do, which is walk in a certain direction, step on somebody's toes.
You don't go, why are you mad at me? Stepping on you? your first reaction. Oh, dare you. Yeah. It's like, why are you being like, get over It. Just, just stepped on your [00:38:00] foot. You would instead say, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to do that, but I did it . Uh, do you need anything? Can I help? And they might say, no, it's fine.
And they're able to move on. in that moment, it becomes about not just focus on your guilt that you might have of having done it, but really focus on what does it look like to repair this? And that might just be an apology. That might also be an acknowledgement of what happened. Cuz an apology without acknowledgement, I think can feel very hollow.
So,
Julie Harris Oliver: I'm sorry. Sorry you felt that way.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. Sorry. You got offended. It's like it's your fault. It's not, that's not the example. Yeah. First thing like, so are you so sensitive? I totally messed up. That was me. Apologies. Um, this is how I messed up. I will try not to do it again in the future. I might mess up again though.
Apologies. I'm working on it. , wait for it. We're all works in progress and if you react to something with like a, my bad, like I will, I'm working on it [00:39:00] and I will try to show up for you. People are usually really thankful because typically what happens is you bring up a harm is that people get really defensive and then you're like, now I have to do five times more.
because now this person's mad at me. They're having this issue, and it takes that focus away from the harm that originally happened, which might have been a comment that was made just like stepping on somebody's foot. You, if you constantly focus on all these other things, you don't actually get to resolve the core issue.
And then after that, why would you wanna talk to somebody who's more defensive? Why would you bring anything up? You know? Yeah. The trust is lost. We worth.
Julie Harris Oliver: And also, how much more helpful would it be if the rest of us as bystanders, could you. Oh, I clocked that. Not cool. Don't say that kind of thing. and I, I think you can do it in a non-confrontational way.
It's like we don't, we don't talk like that. Not cool.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. Uh, I had a, I was working in a hospital where it was more male dominated and, but there were a lot of women providers and I had one and we'll say [00:40:00] non-male, but primarily women providers and there was one supervisor I really appreciated cuz anytime.
One of the patients said something that was sexist. She'd say, inappropriate, that's inappropriate, and then would move on and they'd be like, what? She's like, think about it. I'm just gonna name that. No more energy spent. Yeah, it's letting you know, and then she'd continue. It was like, I will still treat you with respect, but I want for you to know.
Clocked it clocked. Saw it wasn't working. So you might be in the hallway and somebody says something to me and you just might hear her walking by and say, inappropriate , move on. .
Julie Harris Oliver: It's like, objection.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes, yes. Very quickly throwing that out.
Julie Harris Oliver: And I also like speaking of the built up trauma of it all, like I, as you were talking, I was thinking of this instance.
I, I worked in sales for a long time and. Often if it was, oh, I'm gonna go see so-and-so client this afternoon. The chorus was, take one for the team, wink, wink. Mm. For years until there was a day when I finally exploded to an entire room. You may not [00:41:00] suggest I am going to get that client in a sexual manner that undermines my meeting.
It under undermines my competence and my job. Knock it off. How dare you. It took years and then my response was explosive. It wa it was not my finest moment , but it was also not anyone else's finest moment. But it, it certainly made the point. I don't know if after that behavior changed, but that's a thing that can happen.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah, I think of it just like a teapot. If you just keep putting heat underneath it and you just leave the water there, like it's going to come to the point where it starts whistling, and you have to relieve some of that pressure some way. And if somebody else would've stepped in for you and been like, oh, I think that's inappropriate.
Or like, oh, I think she'll probably get it some other way cuz she's really great at her job. Any comment would've allowed for just a little bit of that pressure to be relieved and you would've also known that you could trust other people in there to have your back and what you shared is pretty relatable [00:42:00] cuz um, it probably wouldn't have taken years for me.
Gimme a solid three weeks and got off. But in many ways you might feel like I can't say anything. You know, I'm curious about your ability to even feel like it was a safe space for you to share your experience after they constantly made those comments.
Julie Harris Oliver: Well, it took until I felt like I had enough power that I could, without having, without having a lot of consequences for it.
Yeah.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. But
Julie Harris Oliver: it, yeah, it took a while. I mean, now I I would probably cut it off very quickly, but, uh, yeah, at that, at that time in my life, it was,
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: it, And I think that's the key though. Most people feel like they don't have any power, and in many roadways you may not have that power, uh, because of how things are set up.
They're, it's very hierarchical, especially the entertainment industry. And in other industries too, they just may not talk about it as much. And so you know that to some extent you [00:43:00] probably won't be allowed to without severe retaliation to say as much. And that's been deeply ingrained. So even as we're trying to shift and change it and say, let's talk about it, uh, before it turns into that big moment or that explosion, people probably aren't gonna feel safe to do that unless there is a cultural shift, which those who are in positions of power and leadership currently can do.
They could say like, come to me, I wanna hear it. Something comes up. You'll be retaliated against things like, And proving it if it does happen, it does
Julie Harris Oliver: feel like it really takes leadership at the top, setting the culture. Cuz we can say all kinds of things, um, you know, deep within the ranks, but, it, it takes one eye roll from someone with power to really undermine all of that.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: Can we talk about just the concept of doing like a check-in at, at the beginning of a day there, there's a restaurant in Los [00:44:00] Angeles called Cafe Gratitude, which is. Delicious food, but also it's probably the most la thing that can happen. I think it's also, it started in San Francisco because the, the dishes are like, I am humble, I am grateful, I am loving.
And then when they bring you your food, they say, you are loving . You are grateful. And so it's very, it's very, It's very what it is. Um, yes, but they wrote a business book about like when their servers would come in to work every day. They had a practice of everybody got a 15 minute or 10 minute.
one-on-one meeting with their manager. And the purpose of that meeting was to download whatever you brought in with you that day so that it didn't interfere with your performance for the rest of the day. Hmm. And I know that some people are starting to implement that on productions, like during the safety meeting or during the thing.
Like something horrific just happened out in the world that we know is affecting people. Let's take a moment, acknowledge that. Ask if anyone needs support. [00:45:00] Gather, you know, before we get on with the rest of the day and do the work.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: I love that. . I love it so much. Again, it's creating that ritual that I mentioned previously where you can put things down and if you can acknowledge what's happening in your world, then you can have permission to say, what can I do with it?
Because if I can acknowledge that it's there, then I can say, what do I want? Do I wanna keep carrying this forward? Do I wanna put it down? Do I wanna have a further conversation about. , but you have actual options and tools other than suppression. Cuz suppression doesn't work.
Julie Harris Oliver: It does not work. It will come out at some point.
Mm-hmm. . But I think that also triggers, oh, my boss cares about me as a human. Yes. And about my wellbeing and acknowledging that I might be carrying something today that's heavy or hard.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Absolutely. It's. I think we mentioned it previously, but I wanna highlight we are all, we are all folks with different, very different amounts of stress, that we have different amounts of trauma, that we might carry different [00:46:00] experiences.
I know that my experiences, a black immigrant woman moving through the world will be different from your experience. And if you can see me in that, that allows me to actually really connect. I, I've always real, I, in that moment, I actually thought about one supervisor who I think was one of my best, like a leader and a mentor, and it was an older white guy,
I just got lunch with him. Mm-hmm. a few weeks ago to catch up, even though it's been years since we've worked together and we could not be more different. But he showed care, he asked how I was doing and he meant it. And we would just have moments to say, how are things going? With this program that you're trying to put together, how are things going with this specific thing?
And I would be like, oh, here was this issue, . I didn't know if I should talk about it, but we're here. And you asked. And just like his caring and compassionate response to me allowed me to actually do much better work than I think I ever could have to know that if I messed up that he would have my [00:47:00] back.
And it made it so that we actually had. Such a great relationship that I'm like, oh yeah, that's one of the best mentors to this day, and I. A short list of people that I really keep in contact with, um, that I really carry forward as true mentors. And those folks are always the ones who saw me for me, like actually asked me how I was checked in about things, showed up for me in different ways.
And it didn't have to be big, it's just taking one minute out of their day to show that they cared. Yeah. So I know that goes a long. Especially when you're in a stressful situation where you're like, we don't have time. There's constant urgency. I can't be myself. I can't show up. I have to do this. And somebody says, let's slow down.
Just take two minutes. Let's take 10 15. It shows that you're really important.
Julie Harris Oliver: I, I think it's not as hard as people are afraid that it is, and I think perhaps people are afraid of asking a question that they perceive may get them into a situation then that they don't know how to deal. Or care for [00:48:00] sure because these, because problem solvers, you know, when faced with a situation they don't know how to solve, uh, I think that can be really challenging.
Yeah. But you're saying that the asking of the question is the important part.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: If you told me, I don't know how to solve that for you, but that sounds tough. I might know somebody else. Let's think about it. Who else can support you? Cuz I maybe can't. That is, um, Shows a vulner, a level of vulnerability and a level of care.
That goes a long way because a, again, we're just all floundering in our own ways. to make it work, and try and make it
Julie Harris Oliver: work so we're all floundering. Yeah, there's the, there's the tweet . We're all, we're all floundering
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: and we're just trying to do our best. And if you can say, I'm doing my best, my best may not have it today for you, but let's think about it.
I want to be able to be supportive and even. one supervisor who I mentioned is one that I, I carry. So, um, with [00:49:00] such high regard, he didn't fix all my problems. , he didn't know. There were some things where he was like, I have no idea. I'd bring in like, I experienced this thing about racism and sexism, and he was like, wow, I didn't even realize how much I didn't know.
And I appreciate you bringing this in. I don't necessarily have a solution, but I, if you want to talk about it, I'll be here if you want to. Brainstorms, I'll be here. And I was like, no, I just wanted somebody to listen and that was enough. So it's really important to think like, what is the next smallest thing you can do?
And if it's listening, being an empathetic ear, acknowledging that you may not have all the answers so that they know like, I'm just a person like you, figuring it out. Struggling in the world and making it work.
Julie Harris Oliver: And can we add to that, the short list of what not to do, which is, are you sure that was racism?
Are you sure they meant that? Are you sure that was sexism? Yes, I know that guy, he wouldn't have,
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: that goes back to that defensiveness cuz it's like I need to defend my point of view, or this [00:50:00] person or this idea. And if you just went in and say, wow, that sounds tough. I don't need to agree with what happened, , I don't need to.
Say, this person is so great, but, or actually, um, actually there's this whole othering . You can just say, that sounds tough. Let's just leave it there. Validate that experience, like that was rough. I don't know what to say other than that. Or I don't have more to give you. I will be thinking about how I can support you, cuz that sounds.
Julie Harris Oliver: And I, I think the impulse to do that, especially amongst white people here, let me speak for all white people, , um, is the, the conditioning that we've had and because of all the media representation to see white people is particularly nuanced and everybody's different and everybody has different motivation.
Where as the same conditioning is to see, um, black people as a monolith, see people of color as a monolith, see gay people as a mono. Where you can ascribe motivation to [00:51:00] whatever, whatever their behavior is, because we're, we're not conditioned to see the nuance between people. And I think that's where the empathy part comes in and just the, the conscious application of empathy and seeing people is people.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yeah. And I should say that doesn't mean we erase the fact that we have different experiences, cuz that can always Yes. Swinging into the like color of races. Like I don't see color, we're all humans , so we wanna have what?
Julie Harris Oliver: There's a human race. That's it. Yes. ,
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: I wanna say that is trying to nicer way out of racism by not acknowledging Right, right, right.
And all of this, what we're doing, cuz what you're highlighting is that acknowledg. Saying like, oh, there might be other reasons. Like if I come in with a bit of an attitude, don't just assume I'm an angry black woman. Maybe assume that maybe, right? I, there was traffic that I might be having some family stuff going on.
Assume all of these other things, or ask what's going on in an open way.
Julie Harris Oliver: You may have dealt with some BS walking in the door.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes. Yes, [00:52:00] maybe I was, and I'm somebody where I'm like, I'm running late and then this thing happened and this, and I will just ruminate. I will just be steaming. And I'm like, I can't believe so said that.
And of course I'm gonna bring that in and you might see my face and think, Ooh, she seems so aggressive, which would be a micro, she's quickly. Yes. Rather than being like, Ooh, is she having a bad day? Let me check in. Are you okay? Like, what's happening? I, I just saw, I just saw your face and I'm like, yeah, I'm having a moment.
And then once I talk about it, I can be done with that moment, . Right. We can show up.
Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. I know we are running out of time. Is there anything that I should have asked you that I didn't ask you? Any little nugget you had saved up?
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: What a delightful question. I love that. Um, I think the only nugget I want to add in, there's no one solution, so I want for people to, that's a bummer.
Yes, . It's one of [00:53:00] those like many gifts of living and one of those like many curses at the same time. It's very much a catch 22. You might do everything right, everything we've said, your version of right, and there might still be issue. The metaphorical crap might still hit the fan, and you're like, I bet I did it, but I listened.
But I did exactly what Dr. T said. I'm doing it right. Yes. So I would say, don't get discouraged. Every situation is different. All of the needs are different, and you can just pivot and adapt. Just so we mentioned, maybe that costume might be off, maybe that wig is not looking correct. You can still pivot.
Have a great shoot and move on. in the same way when we're doing these interactions, when we're having these conversations, when we're potentially messing up and learning from it and growing, it's all about pivoting and knowing that there will be 50 different ways to get to one solution, which is having an inclusive, thoughtful, empathetic space.
So figure out what works for people there. I love consent. I love asking, what would [00:54:00] you need? Because for example, me from Jersey, I'm like, tell me things. I don't really care about X, Y, and Z. Don't make me figure it out. Yes. If you're like, Ooh, she has a look on her face, ask me directly. I will tell you. Um, but leave space for me to be the most Jersey version of myself,
That'll be great. And then I can come back. But somebody else might need something slightly different. And rather than seeing that as like a burden, see that as like, This is one of the fun parts of work, which is let's bring all these things together and still have something wonderful at the end of it.
So I wanna leave folks with, . It's hard work. It's ongoing work. It's fun work too.
Julie Harris Oliver: And let's try to create spaces where we allow each other some grace to get there.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Yes, yes. Lots of grace. As you mentioned, you've got received a lot of it. You've gotten what you've needed. I've also received a lot of grace and openness and I'm so thankful when that happens.
And I've also, you know, put in that work so I can get [00:55:00] that grace to some extent by naming. I'm not gonna get it right all the time. Call me into a conversation. Let's connect. And people are so open, um, people's tendencies to give grace oftentimes if you come with a degree of openness to it.
Julie Harris Oliver: Love it. Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque, thank you so much for being with us.
Dr. Tanisha Thelemaque: Thank you for having me. It's been such a pleasure.
Julie Harris Oliver: Where can people find you?
Ooh, people can find me on the internet. Um, so I have my website, values intersecting action.com. I also have, um, you know, I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram, Dr. T Tele, um, and also Dr t teak@gmail.com.
So if people wanna send me a quick email, have inquiries connect with me, you can. Um, I have a unique name which helps. There's not very many Tanisha Teles out in the. So feel free to connect in whatever way makes sense for you.
Great. Okay. Thanks so
much. Thank you. Bye.
You've been listening to the [00:56:00] other 50% of Herstory of Hollywood.
I'm Julie Harris Oliver, thank you to Dr. Tanisha Tele for sharing her expertise. You should immediately go and follow her on social media. And special thanks to Jay Rowe, Danny Rosner and Allison McQuaid. For the music, go check out the Catcher Break Podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry.
Thanks for listening. See you next time.