Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] You're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. Today we are kicking off our series of talking with experts who work in various aspects of diversity, equity, and inclusion across industries and in the entertainment industry specifically. First up is Dr. Kira Banks. Dr.

Banks's decades of experience allow her to make complex and controversial topics accessible in schools, communities, institutions of higher education and corporations. She co-founded the Institute for Healing Justice and Equity at St. Louis University, where she has a professor in the Department of Psychology.

In addition, she has published over 20 articles in peer reviewed. And she has contributed to the Harvard Business Review, the Atlantic and the Guardian. She received her BA from Mount Holyoke College where she graduated Phi Beta Kappa and her MA and PhD are from the University of Michigan. Today, Dr.

Banks has a podcast raising equity to support adults in talking to kids about systems of oppression. [00:01:00] She's also a co-principal of the Mouse and the elephant, which develops customized curriculum to meet organizations' long-term needs. On a personal note, I have learned a tremendous amount from Dr. Banks and I am thrilled she agreed to do this podcast, and I'm so excited for you to get to meet her and hear what she has to say here.

Have a listen.

Okay. Hi, Dr. Kira Banks.

Dr. Kira Banks: Hi. How are you doing? I'm well. How are you? I'm doing all right. I am doing all right. That's always a loaded question nowadays. And yet I know , I'm hanging in there. Lots of transitions, uh, with the kids and work and life and so I'm just, I'm trying to be present in the moment and soak it in cuz things are gonna change Exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: These days it's like, well the, there's so much really to answer there, so fine. That's fine, right? The second, yeah. So I just wanna jump right in. Typically, I just say to people, you know, what do you do to, [00:02:00] to hear where they are, you know, in the business. Cuz typically, I, I interview women who are in the business.

Um, and I know you are a professor, you are in organizations, you do consulting, speaking, writing, you do all the things. But maybe, uh, you could describe in your words how you think about what you.

Dr. Kira Banks: So broadly, I'm a psychologist. I'm a clinical psychologist by training, which means I do clinical work, but I actually don't have a private practice.

I haven't for some years cuz it takes a lot of time and energy and I feel like that's, you know, you gotta honor your patients and your clients. And so I am a professor where I train other students to be clinicians in our doctoral program. I also. Graduate and undergraduate, and I do research on how discrimination impacts mental health.

I also started an institute for Healing Justice and Equity at St. Louis University with some colleagues that's like across disciplines. So basically what does it mean for us to think about how we heal? From injustices and how do we stop them? So [00:03:00] that's been broadly the, the big part of my work has, has taken those two tracks.

It's one, understanding how do we support people when they're in oppressive systems and environments. And two, how do we stop those environments? From being oppressive, cuz that would be the easiest way to support people, right? .

Julie Harris Oliver: Right. Just knock it off everybody. Just stop. , just stop. And I've seen you work with productions and an entertainment, but you work across all kinds of organizations, don't you?

Dr. Kira Banks: I do, I work across all sorts of industries.

Julie Harris Oliver: How do you find the entertainment industry compares across everything else? Like entertainment is such a weird niche with such a specific culture. Like how, how does it compare in the general world? So

Dr. Kira Banks: in some ways it's not that different, and I hate to say this cuz every industry thinks that they're special, but it's similar dynamic.

And it's, it's really, it's kind of like, you know, everyone's life and lived experience is different, [00:04:00] and yet there are some similarities. And so maybe it's the clinical psychologist in me that can see those connections. Mm. But I really don't think that the industry is all that different from some of the other industries I've worked in.

So, for example, it's one of those industries where it's extremely important. Like who you. And to know people to be able to get in. And so that sort of, um, kind of, you know, very networked focused. Um, in some ways nepotism is a really common variable exists in other industries. Uh, the other thing that I'd say that.

That's pretty common in the entertainment industry is this like feeling of being really proud of like the content and creativity and the innovation and of the, of the industry. Like to create the content that people watch, that people love, that you can't find in any other industry, however, that sort of.

The creativity, the innovation, the pride and the [00:05:00] product that that's common across industries. And so in some ways there's not that much difference. But I will say one of the things that I think is unique, that also present other places is that after George Floyd's murder, I saw the biggest increase in wanting to understand what we can.

why this is happening in our industry within the entertainment industry. Oh, that's interesting cause

Julie Harris Oliver: I, cuz it does feel like there was kind of an uptick in the nation, right? We need to have this conversation. I, I do think there's something about entertainment at its core. It's very much known for or suspected to be this liberal enclave of people who are trying to tell stories and understand the human condition and make art at the same time as it's sitting within a really entrenched power.

right? That is kind of at odds with the, let's understand the human condition and tell everyone's story and have a really [00:06:00] equitable space. So it makes sense to me that people would be really wanting to understand it. So it feels like the last couple years have really been, like we joked about it, the Hearts and Minds tour, where everyone wants to really talk about it and understand it and dig into what it is and what the stories.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah, I, I, and here's the thing. I, this is where I think it's common because I see the same sort of dynamic in some of the financial industries I work in, right? You have people who they're not making art in the same way, so they're not creatives in the same way. But they feel like some of them in, especially like in the philanthropy world and the foundation world, like they wanna do good.

They want to leverage what they have to offer the world to help people, to inspire people to. Right. This kind of, this kind of very altruistic perspective, and yet there's a lot of racism that's embedded in those systems. [00:07:00] The financial system, our philanthropic organizations. Um, our nonprofits, right? And so it's, it's this balance.

Actually, Dolly Chug talked about this in her book. The Person You mean to Be, that people want to think about themselves as good people. , but that if we have oppressive systems happening, you can be a good person inside an oppressive system. Like those things can coexist. And I think what happened post George Floyd is so many people were realizing this is not just about someone being good or bad.

There's some patterns happening. And so what I do think was unique, yes, there was an an uptick in some people call it a reckoning, all across the. I saw it hit the entertainment, entertainment industry hard because they saw themselves as such good people and they were wedded to this idea that we, like you said, we are creatives.

We create art for everyone. We see the story in so many people and see the [00:08:00] universality of people and story in the theater world in particular. It's often known as like the place where people who were kind of misfits or, uh, you know, kind of on the fringe might be accepted, and yet they were being told really clearly that they have a problem.

And it was this, I do think it was, is it hurt them, it hurt their feelings, it hurt their sense of self. It kind of, it broke up their idea of themselves as good people. If the systems that they were creating and recreating and perpetuating were part of the problem, which they have been, but being aware of that, I think that awareness was low, and the ability to see oneself as separate and a good person from the systems, we allowed that because of how we conceptualized the problem.

To me that was the biggest shift post George Floyd, is that [00:09:00] everyone had been on a Hearts and Minds tour, and at least from my perspective, and the people that I know who were in kind of the equity, diversity, inclusion, belonging justice world have been clear and remain clear. That it is not about hearts and minds, that it is changing the system.

It is changing the dynamics. It's changing what I call the built landscape of how we set things up. That's what we need to do, not focus on hearts and minds and are you a good person or a bad person? Is that person a good person or a bad person? Our focus had been wrong and in a way you could say actually that focus.

Help maintain the status quo, because if we're only worried about who's good or bad, we miss the bigger question around how the, the water we're swimming in, the way that we set things up is set up to continue to be inequitable. And so I saw that as the biggest shift, um, across industries. But in particular, there was a zest for it within the entertainment industry that had not been there before.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, I think all of that is true and it, [00:10:00] it felt like, , like step one was learning the language. Like, okay, starting to understand that we're in a system. Also, the awareness of that production and entertainment, these are the things that shape the culture at large. And so there is a responsibility to figure it out and to do it right, and so we need to have the language in order to do that, which I think was is so much of the learning journey.

Along with the unlearning of how the industry has been for the last 150 years, what surprised you the most coming into it with entertainment? Was anything like, Ooh, I didn't expect that. Hmm.

Dr. Kira Banks: So I've been doing this work for now, I can say over 25 years. Cause I used to be like, over 20 years now we're here over 25

Um, nothing was a huge surprise. So what's also similar is that things move slowly as much as things can also move quickly when they want. , but things around setting up more equitable inclusive environments. Like there's a lot [00:11:00] of, there's sometimes some, either some pushback or some, um, you know, oh, we're too busy for that.

It's hard to fit it in. And so there was a part of me that was gonna say the desire to just keep things the way they are and say like, well, but we, we do such great work. But that is actually, it's not a surprise because I see that. So many different industries of, of like this feeling that if we critique it too hard that we're again saying that we're bad people or that we did it on purpose, or that if we are too honest about what's broken, that it'll look, it'll, it'll taint our hundreds of years of history or the accolades that we've gotten.

So this like desire to, to not want to name. Broken and not working, but that's not specific to the industry. What do you think?

Julie Harris Oliver: on the one hand, as humans, if you have all the evidence in the world that what you have been doing has [00:12:00] resulted in success in the accolades and the Emmys and the Oscars and the prizes and the money and all of that, and you have a perception of yourself as being a real good person.

It doesn't surprise me at all that people really wanted to talk about it and really wanted to understand it, and really wanted to put language around. And then I've noticed then when you get to the point of, okay, you get it, you have the words to use now, now we have a plan of what we can actually do.

Suddenly that is really hard and really impossible and really risky, and you don't understand my business and you don't understand what you're asking me to do. And oh my God, this is, we, we need to talk about it some more.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah. Because we don't wanna let go of the way things are, and that's why I say it's, yeah, it didn't feel that different because.

Basically the journey started with people wanting to be heard. So black folks in particular, folks of color were like, we just told you what was going on last week, last month, last year in that climate survey, or this focus group, but for some reason, you're willing to listen more now, and so we'll, okay, we'll [00:13:00] tell you again.

Some were, some were like, forget you. You're not serious. You're just saying that you, you know, you're just performing performative. Right? But those who are willing to engage in that moment, were like, okay, we'll tell you for the hundredth time. What the problem is. And then it really was a matter of like, all right, so what are you gonna do about it?

So you're, you're comment around like having actions match, match words. It's a big one. And yet that is not industry specific. And so, There's this push and pull, like I think that's part of why I was able to step into the, the consultative role with different media organizations and Broadway productions, because I've seen this process of like awakening awareness, understanding analysis, and then working to create some new behaviors and action.

I've seen it across so many different sectors that what was clear is that, now, don't get me wrong, there have been people who've been doing this work in the [00:14:00] industry for decades, right? Like there are folks who have been veterans and there was this, this moment, this window where people were willing to do some deeper analysis.

And like you said, some folks were even willing and able to get to a plan of action. But then you've gotta do things differently. And if they've had success monetarily and in terms of like accolades in the industry in the past, they're thinking, why do I need to change anything? They're really like, even though they're hearing the stories anew, they don't realize the the, the cost.

But I think about what's happening in, um, east Palestine, Ohio right now, right? With the chemical explosion in the spill and how. You know, we can talk about how we care about humans and we care about people, but then if this major humanitarian event is happening and we're not making sure people are being evacuated or getting clean water to not just drink but bathe themselves in, right?

Our [00:15:00] actions don't match our words. Or when we hear the young woman who was in the Sandy Hook shooting and in the Michigan State shooting, and she's like, alright. Enough already. This is my second mass shooting. I literally have physical and psychological injuries. Can we stop with the thoughts and prayers?

Can we do something? It almost feels like we're not tired enough yet. We're not willing to do something different, to get a different outcome, but we wanna say that we care about people or we wanna say that we C right, but we're still able to make. Insert company industry that's still making money despite these massive events where people are harmed or we're still willing to tolerate, you know, not having legislation that prevents the sort of mass shootings that we continuously see.

So I don't know if you see a connection there, but I really do think about how, like we're saying one thing, but it's hard to do another. And so in that way, the entertainment industry is just like any other.

Julie Harris Oliver: We're also sitting [00:16:00] in this culture. I think it's particularly American, where our policies are definitely not people first in any, in healthcare, in business, in environmental.

It's not people first. And there are, there are other places I've traveled to recently where it did seem people first. I was like, what a refreshing difference. And you're not crazy for thinking the people should be thought about here, but I think sitting in that, Context is really hard, and if you're in an industry that's been so successful, I don't know how much people believe the business case that you're going to be even more successful.

I think more people are afraid of, well, I'm gonna get canceled, or I'm going to have a big scandal around myself if I don't sort this out, or I need to do enough not to be on anybody's radar. I think there's much more fear driven. rather than a real believe. I mean, there's, there's a whole spectrum, as you know, in, in entertainment.

There's people who have been doing the work for 20 years and what took everybody so long, and this is just how I operate and I'm gonna continue to [00:17:00] operate that way. On the other end is you don't know what you're talking about. You're introducing risk. There are no people who can do this work except me and my bros.

Um, and you know, there's everybody in between. And so even when very successful people are saying, not only are you going to be more successful if you do this, But you're also not going to continue to be successful without doing this work. I don't know if people totally believe it. until they've had some experience of not being successful.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah, and I mean, you named it like the way that we've set up our system. I mean, with capitalism inherently it's not people first, and so we shouldn't really be surprised that we're not thinking about people and, and yet there was that window where we were all at home. Not all. I should not say that at all.

That's a very privileged perspective where many of us were at home and had the time and. And attention to focus on this murder, and we realized what's happening. And it's not that, what's not an anomaly. And so that like [00:18:00] to me, reminds me how connected we are as humans, and yet we have quickly gotten back to business as usual.

Julie Harris Oliver: So I wanna dig into like all the different pieces before we go to the, where do we go from here? I know one of the things that certainly working with people who work in production, producers and the type of people who are running the business of production, very much action oriented. Let me get through my checklist.

I'm gonna do a million things. If you want this d e I stuff on my list, fine. Put it on my list and I'll do it. The thing they wanna do is very quickly hire a bunch of people that check all the boxes so they can say, look, I did it. I have a diverse crew set. Without necessarily wanting to do the other work around it.

And I, I love the way that you talk about it in, in a way that it's so much more nuanced than that and you have to do so much more work rather than just hire people and shove them into the system. . That's kind of terrible [00:19:00] over all kinds of people. I mean, it really just doesn't solve the larger issue, right?

Dr. Kira Banks: So representation is a thing. I'm not saying it doesn't matter. You'll see people wear shirts, representation matters. Absolutely not arguing that. And you can bring people in and if you don't allow them to share their lived experience or their perspective, You actually don't benefit from them being in the room and being a representative.

You haven't let them fully be represented. You just have checked the box that they exist in the space. And so that's why it's so much more than that. Like if we even think about it, you can, you think about it from a different few of the different perspectives, but Right, like it, I have one of my consulting firms is the mouse and the elephant, and we often use that analogy to help people think about like if the elephants are running things cuz like they're elephants, they get to take up.

Right. And they're like, sure, mice come on in. But like shift nothing. Can the mice really access anything in this elephant world? Oh, but we let you in. But yeah, you're like [00:20:00] trampling me and I can't reach anything and nothing is sized right for me. And they're like, oh, well stop complaining. We let you in.

Yeah, right. It's like this whole thing around. Understanding that representation is the beginning and actually sometimes isn't the first thing that needs to happen. Like first you gotta reflect on how is this environment shaped? Who is it benefiting? Who is it set up for? Are we ready to say that we. want to be and can be inclusive of other ways of being.

And then if we are, then bring people in. Cuz otherwise it becomes a revolving door. And you get to say, oh well we had, we had someone who was a woman in this department and they just didn't work well. Like, yeah, cuz between the jokes that you made and, and the places where you went to like build team culture.

She didn't wanna go. She didn't wanna stay, so it's not really on her. You didn't have to suffer and do things that were [00:21:00] outside of, you know, your comfort zone to like live here in this space. And so why do we expect that folks who are in those kind of mice positions have to like change themselves and assimilate to succeed rather than thinking about how we really can make this a place that multiple people have access to opportunities and development opportu.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think that is a shift that's blindsiding a lot of people. Cause I, there's a whole generation who came through and I paid my dues. I shut up, I listened, I figured it out. I didn't ask for anything until I got to the top and, and now it's my turn to treat everybody behind me horribly. Also, at the same time, we're having this racial equity conversation.

There's also a generational shift happening where Gen Z and millennials are coming in and they're really not having. So the whole kind of militaristic, top-down direction and control culture that production has had forever is also being asked to change [00:22:00] at the same time. I think it all works together and if we can do it, what a world this will be.

But I think it's addressing all the parts about the culture in general in product.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah, cuz it's not just about race, it's not just about gender, it's not even just about class or status. It's about all of those things. It's about seeing humanity in people. I was just reading, listen actually, I think I was listening to a study that was talking about like a news study that was talking about how, um, You know, the generational differences, cuz sometimes we overblow generational differences.

They're, they get overblown, like, oh, okay, boomer or Gen X. Right? But what is different is that, like historically when boomers and, and other folks were growing up, Like they might be able to live on the wage that they were getting, doing whatever in a production, even with a union or not, but that they were able to like make [00:23:00] due.

So that whole thing of like, I did my job, I shut up, I put my head down. Nowadays there was a study that was saying like if you took the salary of what someone was making like in the eighties, cuz they're like, well, I bought a house and I was able to do whatever and you took it to, today it's like $115 an hour that people would have to.

something egregious like that. And so like we shouldn't be surprised in the system that we have that no, they're not willing to just shut up and take it cuz they gotta work five other jobs to live. So it's not just about them being entitled, it's them trying to have a life and to be valued as a human being.

And so I think your point, one of the things we try to articulate is that, yes, racial equity is important and we often sidestep the conversation and don't wanna talk about. , but this is about like seeing the humanity in people, period. And it's not always just about race. It often isn't. Cuz someone who has a race also has a gender sexual orientation, a class background, a religious background, and all of those things matter.

So this whole idea that [00:24:00] like, well I just put my head down and you know, was okay. Those were pretty homogenous workplaces and it was a different society in terms of like what you needed to live.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, that, that reminds me of when, uh, people now are saying, well, I worked my way through college busing tables.

Like what's the problem with kids these days? Like the problem with kids tuition's $80,000 a year. What are you talking about?

Dr. Kira Banks: Right. And again, this is why people have to understand the built landscape and how we set things up as a country. We have, we have in a way, Created this, this and allowed the expansion of loans that allow people, I shouldn't even to say allow, but give people access to college, but at the same time hamper them with debt.

So it's like this double edge thing. And so, yeah, you worked your way through college, but like you said, college was not as expensive. Uh, I had a colleague once say that that was the next bubble that was gonna burst, like when we had the housing bubble burst. And was it like, oh. Early two thousands, oh nine or something like [00:25:00] that.

But, uh, it never did. It just keeps expanding. So expensive.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's unbelievable. I mean, sidebar, I was having a, I one daughter who's graduating college this year, and when she was applying, we sat down with a financial aid officer at some college and, and we were looking at the whole thing and I said, are you really encouraging 17 year olds to acquire $250,000 of debt?

And he was like, I was like, you're insane. That's, it's not, anyway, I could go on about our inequitable college system for hours. I'm sure you can't do, you're right in the middle of it too, right?

Dr. Kira Banks: Uh, yes, yes, we are. We are. But that I think is connected to the industry in that. What I learned. Okay. You asked What surprised me.

I didn't realize how many people were either unpaid or like barely paid. Yeah. Like to get an opportunity to even have proximity, whether it was a production assistant or an intern, whatever it was called. I didn't realize how many people were like just there to like say that they were there because it mattered so much that you were there [00:26:00] in a part of that production or next to this person and oh my goodness, to live in LA or New York or wherever the shoot is happening and have the money to like do that or to take out the loans to do that on either nothing or so little.

That did surprise. . I was like, what are we doing?

Julie Harris Oliver: What are we doing? And then there's all the, all the blow back about Nepo babies. It's like, what do you expect about what Nepo

Dr. Kira Banks: babies, people who are born because of nepotism or like they got the job cuz of it. People who got the

Julie Harris Oliver: job. Like there's so many actors that you don't realize are the children of famous actors and now everybody's being revealed as, and they're calling them the nepo.

Like the, that worked so hard to get where they are. And then you realize, you know, their dad is a famous movie star. They may have had a leg up.

Dr. Kira Banks: Right. So that I will have to, I take that back. That surprised me. I was very surprised at how many positions. We're available like that and they're like, oh [00:27:00] yeah, you can just, we'll, we'll take an intern.

Like, well, okay, so how are they gonna pay for their food, their lodging, their transportation? So we're perpetuating this inequity, cuz you can only do that if you can afford it.

Julie Harris Oliver: They even passed law in California. You can't have unpaid internships and people still do it. Really? They're companies that run on paying people $50 a day.

What? Until they work their way up. I dunno why I'm whispering, but that's egregious . Cause it's shocking. Oh my goodness. Leah, why are you gonna give up your very cheaper, free labor of kids who are super eager and it's their dream and they're gonna work really hard?

Dr. Kira Banks: So rather than me trying to convince someone that that is inhumane, because I get that not everyone sees it as that they talk.

That's how they came up, all those arguments. How about we just need people in who, who are in positions of power to say like, we're not doing that anymore. So whether it's through following the legislation at the state level or through enacting something, I'm talking to people who have some power [00:28:00] just to be like, if you really think that's awful and you're in a position to make sure that internships get subsidized or people get paid a living wage, whatever that living wage is for your city, not just a generic living wage, make it happen.

Make it a policy. People are gonna be happy, but that can be your legacy rather than sitting around being like, oh, that we shouldn't do that. That's unfortunate that that's the way it. Do something, make it happen.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and the funny thing is, is that in pockets people have done something powerful. People have said, we're gonna pay PAs a decent wage.

We're gonna pay the interns, we're going to pay them, you know, double what they used to make. The budgets don't collapse, the show doesn't collapse, it's fine. Like it can so be done. It's not if, if, if what you're saving on not paying the least paid people a little bit more, if that's gonna crash your whole.

then there's something really unstable about it. It's, it's one of the myths actually. Yes. Which, which leads us to the other myths, , because I know that we, we talk about myths all the time, and that's what people come [00:29:00] back with in the arguments of, we can't do this work because, or of course I want to, but things like it's a merit-based system and you have to work very hard and you can't ask me to hire people who are unqualified because I have to hire the most qualified people in the.

The fact that they all look exactly like me. I can't help that, but I'm hiring solely based on merit. What do you say to that?

Dr. Kira Banks: I'd say oftentimes it's not, that's not the case. Like when you dig, it's often because someone knows someone or because someone went to the particular college that you have a pipeline from, and so you know, they're meritorious people that didn't go to like one of two.

I'm not gonna knock the schools cuz it's not the school's fault, but Right. Like we end up privileging people from certain institutions. We end up privileging people who know someone who knows someone. And so what it is, is that you feel like, you, like, you feel like, you know it's a known quantity and that it's not a risk.

Right. So I, I think it, I think [00:30:00] I push people to be more honest with what they're saying. That you can't necessarily say you're hiring the best, it's, you're hiring what feels most comfortable to you. and oftentimes it's cuz, oh, I know someone who came from that program, or I know someone who worked with that person.

And so that can be part of the what's in the mix. But also you also have to think about like what's the, what's the heterogeneity on your team? And not just in terms of race even, but like experience. Because if you have a homogenous team in any way, Like what's the use? If everyone's the same comes from the same school with the same background, out of the same, oh, it's really gonna be easy for you to lead that team and make them do what you want them to do cuz they think the same as you.

Then I, I challenge that you're really trying to be innovative and creative and if you can own that. Yeah, I'm not, I just wanna be safe and not take risks and. , you know? And fast. Fast. And don't forget fast, right? And do what I wanna do. At least be honest about it. [00:31:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: You know, John Amici posted something the other day on Twitter.

when he's called in to consult with a business or a board or something. Did you see this one where he, if he looks around and the board all looks exactly the same, he'll be like, what are the chances that the best brains in this industry all come in? A guy that looks exactly like you, , that's amazing. The odds.

Dr. Kira Banks: right? And so then that really pushes people to think about like, what is it that's making me not be able to see talent that comes in a different package? And that's where I really push folks. I'm, I'm, I'm all about systems perspective, but when we, uh, wait, when I work with folks who are in leadership positions, I really push them thinking about their own background, their own identities, their own stuff, where they.

Educated what they value. Because what we don't often realize is how we perpetuate that in our choices. That it's not always that we're against someone who's different from us. It's often that we're just a big [00:32:00] cheerleader for people who are like us, cuz we, it's a known quantity, they're in our group.

Julie Harris Oliver: I also wonder if there's any subconscious fear around if, if it's not actually a merit based system and I'm in this position of power, what does that say about me?

Like, does that, does. You know, rock people's worlds a little bit,

Dr. Kira Banks: probably. I don't know. Probably. And then we get defensive and we're like, but of course I, I, I deserve to belong here. Right, right. So then, yeah, I mean, I'm, for some people I think that is what's at play like, and that's where I say, you know, this is not, this, the move to think about equity and inclusion is not saying, you know, we don't need any more white men.

It's not what it's about. Like that we right it. There, there, there are plenty of white men and there will continue to be, it's a matter of limiting our view of what's possible, what's talented, what's, what's leadership potential to only being white men. And so, yeah, in a way. that's more competition, quote unquote competition.

But if we're, if we're serious about access [00:33:00] and opportunity, then that's what we need to be thinking about. Like not looking at the same package, whether it's race or gender or sexualization or religion, background, pedigree, all of that. And I think there's, I think there's power in, in that and just realizing that we want to think about how, well, what, how do I, how would I.

I think too often people get defensive personally and they think about like, what will I lose? Rather than a perspective of if I create an environment and a space where everyone has access and opportunity, it's actually a safer place for all of us. Yeah,

Julie Harris Oliver: it's the getting them. To that point, I think is the trick.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah. It's almost, and I use, I use this example a lot in my trainings, but like I work at an institution that's over 200 years old. It's a Catholic institution. It's not trying to not be Catholic, but it does realize that to stay relevant, it has to be inclusive of other religions and faith traditions.

Right? And so it's not like [00:34:00] throwing away its catholicness, it's how does it intentionally include other faith traditions? And so in that same way, it's not. , like saying, oh, there's so many white men. So like, it's like, let's not include them. No. It's like that's the dominant culture here. How do we intentionally include other identities, other races, genders, sexual orientations, religions, D ability, disabilities.

And so I, I do think people get it wrong. They get defensive and they get a scarcity mentality rather than, it's a scarcity.

Julie Harris Oliver: I was just gonna say, There's not enough room for everybody. Like in the biggest production boom we've ever had that there's not enough room. When you're desperate, this is what I always get on, you're desperate to find an accountant cuz there aren't any, to still have that scarcity mindset is such an, yeah, such a, a weird thing to be on to.

Yeah. I think the other thing, um, One of the other myths is that, um, I would love to hire more black people, more women, more [00:35:00] people with disability. They, none of them exist, so they haven't been in the industry. They don't have any experience. Uh, therefore you're asking me to hire unqualified people and do, uh, introduce a bunch of risk to my production.

Those are kind of two myths smashed together, but they're often said in the same breath. What do you say to that?

Dr. Kira Banks: They exist. You're just not looking at the right place. It's, they're just not in your circle. Yeah. You just don't know them. You just don't know them. The number might be smaller probably just cuz like proportionally.

So let's say black folks who are like, what, 13% of the population? Dunno. My latest census data. Um, and in terms of like my feel as a professor, were 4% of the, of the professorate. So do we exist? Yeah. But numerically there just aren't as many. Because we are a smaller number of the percent of the population and then of that population, a very small percentage of us are in the, in the academy, similar to the industry.

And this is where I say like, there's so many similarities because [00:36:00] yeah, the base number is small. The base rate's small. There are. Probably very few account, you know, production accountants of color. But I bet you they exist. And if they don't, I bet you there's some really top-notch accountants that, that are of color that might wanna make the leap into the production world.

And so then that's where they say, oh, well, they're unqualified. Well, it's like, yeah. . But if you're desperate for an accountant, who are you gonna hire? Someone who's like, you weren't, you weren't gonna get the person who like is the top at the top, cuz you, you're, you're scrambling for an accountant. So if you have someone who is a good accountant and has the interest to get into the industry, that's not someone who's unqualified.

That's just someone who hasn't had a door open in the industry.

Julie Harris Oliver: I also like how you talk about the risk of it all.

Dr. Kira Banks: Well, before I get to the risk of it all, you ask that question around like, where are. I also think we have to look at. Tendency to push folks of color in particular into niche productions.

Yeah. Right. So I mean, it's part of why like the [00:37:00] Tyler Perry's of the world, I know there's only one Tyler Perry, but you just work with me. You know? Yeah. Folks like that who have like started their own production companies or started their own, you know, like, because. , they kept getting over a look, right?

And, and often we're only seen in a very narrow way. And so they weren't getting the experiences, the opportunities, getting to tell the stories that they wanted. And so when we have folks who are folks of color and we assume that they can only work on that show that it's about folks of color. But if we look at the, like universe of shows that that is only a small, very small piece of the pie, then we have actually created the problem that we don't have enough folks of color and to, to like, to go around in a sense that fan's very tokenizing and commoditizing, but like this idea that we are in the industry might be perpetuating the problem because we, we are, we don't see, let's put 'em on some mainstream.

We're like, well, let's put 'em in this niche show. Well, so then they don't have the same [00:38:00] experience, and so then you wanna compare them and say, oh, well, yeah. They, they haven't dealt with as, as big of a budget again, because access and opportunity doors were not open.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. It's, it's like looking at white and male as.

I mean, it's the same with anything. Looking at the white male as the standard human, everyone else's other, oh, a white costumer can work on any particular type of show. The black costume has to work on the black show. The, the woman can write the story as long as it's about, as long as it's about her personal trauma, you know?

Or a woman can direct it, but it better be a love story, like those who, those myth that I think perpetuate and limit opportunity. . Whereas why can't a costumer work on any show there is regardless of who they are.

Dr. Kira Banks: But that, I think when we think about like the risk, sometimes I push back to say, well, is it really a risk?

Right? So if, if we look at this person's experience, you know, is it really a risk? Or we just framing [00:39:00] it as such because they, again, like they had to, they not had to, but they had the opportunity to work on this niche show rather than this bigger show. So if you're giving this opportunity to work with this bigger show, they have the.

Julie Harris Oliver: And they've done it for less money, right? So now if they're getting more money, more support, a bigger department, chances are they're gonna be fine.

Dr. Kira Banks: And let's be real. Like we take a risk anytime we hire someone. It's a risk, it's an unknown quantity in a sense, but, oh, this is why people like to take their entourage everywhere with them because it's not a risk and it's a known quantity, right?

So I get, I get. . And, and it's, and especially in the industry, if it's like, if it's a formula and it's worked, why mess with it? And so that's where like things get very closed and insular.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. It's hard to break that up. And then, but the funny thing is, is it takes one job where someone's worked with someone new and then that's their person.

Right. And then they'll be happy to take that person from job to job to job to job. Yeah. So it's really a matter of getting, getting people in the door to be considered along with all [00:40:00] the other things. Uh, I know part of that, getting people in the door. That we get a lot of pushback on is people being scared about the language and how they talk about things and how do we talk about race?

How do we talk about l lgbtq, like we've heard, you know, for people's entire careers. , they've been told in hiring to not ask certain questions, not name things, be colorblind. Let's talk about that. And now, as a result of all these conversations, we're asking people to be very intentional and deliberate and really intentional about who they're bringing in as candidates, who they're looking at, who they're hiring.

And it's making people very nervous from a legal perspective. How do we get people kind of through.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah. I mean, I don't think we should, we should not be framing this as you need to hire black people. Like it shouldn't be a quota. It shouldn't be, we shouldn't see things from that [00:41:00] perspective. That's not useful.

It actually doesn't work and it's unconstitutional. Right? Like we don't have to have that argument. All the things, all the things, you know, people talk about, oh, well just make sure you interview a certain number of women or folks of color. The, like, the Rooney Rule, eh, has not, has not led to an. And black coaches and coaches of color, like it doesn't work in that way.

Like, so it's not as easy to just say, , oh you know, hire people of those racial or ethnic groups. And so I guess I would just name that people can stop being scared of that cuz like that should never be the way you do it. And if that's the way you're doing it, it's problematic. . Yeah. And I do think that this idea that you wanna be conscious of your pool though, is an important one.

And so you wanna think about how do I cast the widest. , how do I maybe look at Hispanic serving institutions? Historically black colleges, like not just go to the colleges that I usually go to, to recruit or not just look at the [00:42:00] programs and the film schools that I usually look to to see on a resume. But expand your network.

Expand your knowledge of who's producing folks from different backgrounds that are in the industry and have an expansive as enough pool as possible. . Um, so that then you, even if you don't end up hiring someone from a group that's historically underrepresented, you've now at least met them or they're on your roster for people to maybe reach out to.

Right? And so I do think it's important to, to not fall into this mindset that's like defensive of like, well, I can't, you know, I can't. Hire someone cuz they're black. Exactly. No one's asked you to do that. That's not what we're asking you to do. You got it. , we're asking you to be expansive in your network and the pool that you.

That you hire from to increase the possibility that you will become familiar with and potentially hire someone who's from a group that's underrepresented, [00:43:00] and to check yourself on the cultural narratives that you maybe have created about people who aren't from your group or people who are from a particular background.

So some of that is individual. on you not getting caught up in, people from this school aren't capable. Was that really true or are you just valuing the school that you went to ? Right. Um, or you know, for that you can't see the value in maybe some of the more niche cultural shows, but it's like, wait, aren't those the same camera?

Production skills that they, that they're using, you're, you know, they used over here. Aren't those the same ones you're using here? So why have that sort of bias? So there is some self-reflection that needs to happen. Um, but you also need to do the work of expanding your network and building a broader pool.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, that is a full-time job that everyone needs to be engaged in all the time.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yep.

Julie Harris Oliver: Could we [00:44:00] just talk about, uh, language and words for a minute? If you could just give us quick definitions. Equity, inclusion, diversity built landscape with the exception of built landscape. I hear people using those first three interchangeably as if they mean the same thing. just popping them into sentences.

If you could define them for us.

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah, so I would start with diversity is something we all have. It's those different aspects of who we are, our social identities that. Our experiences in the world, and they are not simply race or gender or sexual orientation and those groups that are underrepresented. So I hear people talk about diversity and say, oh, diverse hire.

It's like, well, what do you mean? Oh, I mean we need more women or we need more people of color. Well, that's not a diverse hire. That's a, that's a hire, and you're going to be thoughtful about groups that have been underrepresented and make sure they're in your pool. But diversity is just gender identity, sexual orientation, veteran status being neuro [00:45:00] divergent.

Being a parent or a caregiver, those are all things we all have. And inclusion is, is including people on the basis of those differences, celebrating them, rather than telling people to leave them at the door and minimizing them. So thinking about how you create an environment that that gives people not only a sense of I can be who I am.

but also you belong here. Uh, equity is about access, opportunity advancement and, and having the opportunity in a space and having those barriers that are there that keep people from having access and opportunity removed. Right. And so that is about when people say diverse hires, typically they mean.

There's a group that's been under that's underrepresented because there've been barriers, and we need to make sure that we remove those barriers or we're cognizant of helping people navigate those barriers. That's really equity. And then built landscape is a, a concept that I've used to help people understand how systems and and inequities work.

It's like the way that things are set up and built around [00:46:00] us. So whether it's. The parks in our neighborhood, the highway system, the, the, the skyscrapers. Like what have we built up and set up around us that has shaped our experiences that I might be bumping into that you might not that shape the opportunities and access that we have.

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you. I feel like I just asked you to run through your greatest hits, but I wanna get them there on the record. I've heard you say, and if you just wanna refer people to your podcast raising equity, feel free. I've heard you say you can't nice your way out of racism. And I think that's so, uh, true. And I, and I think it's where a lot of well-meaning people go and think that that's how it can be fixed.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah, I, I just, I think that goes back to this whole idea of we can't lean on being good people to fix inequities. And so, for example, like if we know that the way that our, our school systems are set up are not fair, that kids who are living in neighborhoods [00:47:00] where the houses aren't worth as much, that their schools don't have enough resources.

And that places where people. Afford to send their kids to parochial or private schools know that they are doing that to opt out of the public system because the public system is lacking. Right. If we see that us being nice and kind to those kids, yeah. Does nothing, they're still without resources.

They're still without the books that they need or the, or the technology that they need to make them competitive in this world. And so I say we can't nice our way out of racism because being nice is not the solution. We can all be nice people in a very unfair and unjust society. And that's useless, really.

I mean, I guess it's good to be, I'm not, I'm not saying we shouldn't be kind to each other, but in terms of really changing things so that those kids have resources, our niceness doesn't do anything unless we use. To leverage our privilege and our what We have to make sure that they do have what they need to [00:48:00] change how we're funding the schools or to resource the schools.

That sort of action matters, not whether we're nice or not. You actually change the system. Yeah, right. I don't need you to like me. I just need you to make sure that I have access and an opportunity. It doesn't mean we'll have the same outcome, but it does mean that we've created an environment where people experience the ability to step forward and to have the opportunities and to thrive.

Julie Harris Oliver: Going back to. Production and what we think will actually make sustainable change. I've heard you talk about, you know, it's not one and done. A lot of times we think we can fly in, do a workshop like a sexual harassment work the way this sexual harassment workshop has not eliminated sexual harassment. In any way, shape, or form, what do you think that work actually needs to look like on productions in a sustained way?

Dr. Kira Banks: Yeah. It needs to be embedded in every step of the production. So it doesn't hurt to have a training or some sort of professional development workshop for folks, [00:49:00] but it, it needs to be woven throughout. So for a simple as like if we think. honoring people in terms of their gender identity and their pronouns.

Right. Um, I can have a workshop where we talk about we respect people's pronouns, but what do we do on set, on production? When we have a call sheet? Do we give, have an opportunity for people to have their pronouns there so that everyone is able to share them? Or do we only have that. For people who identify as them, they, and they have to figure out a way to out themselves as them they, or they have to write it in.

And so those are the only pronouns. And so we're over focusing on folks who are in non-dominant groups and putting the burden on them to say something. Right. So it looks like figuring out a way to integrate the work into how you do production and not siloing it or make it in name only.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think that's what may be surprising to people.

Cuz that example that you just brought up, pronoun. Easy fix. Ask people their pronouns as they're coming in, who whoever wants to give them, give them, put them on a call sheet. Done. That's taking you 10 seconds to create an environment where [00:50:00] people may feel more comfortable,

Dr. Kira Banks: but that means we have to slow down to do something different.

and we're creatures of habit. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Be, I don't You don't have to slow down that much. I agree. It's, it's not that hard. I'm gonna argue it's not that hard. All day long to be, and we'll be, we'll be shouting that chorus from the rooftops

when I think about like reality television or unscripted televis. . And a lot of times part of the show is like the conflict, right? And the drama and the people saying terrible things to each other and that escalating. And there's also a push in the industry in general to start having, it's like the last frontier to start having HR people, you know, on productions and onset.

And so people are lodging a lot of complaints. And at the same time, I, I think sometimes in these. They're very committed to the content because the content is getting clicks and getting ratings and getting everybody talking. [00:51:00] And so it feels really hard to get in there and make really any kind of progress with the work if the content is so committed to be inflammatory.

Dr. Kira Banks: So I think this takes producers that are willing to see the bigger picture because what typically happens on these shows is. Some, some, like someone will dig up information on someone and then they're like, why didn't you know this? Or Why did you deal with this? And then they have to confront or say something on social media or say something in a, a group setting when people come back for a reunion style show or something like that.

And I think, well, like, why not be proactive and incorporate those sorts of, those sorts of content pieces into the storyline that then saves you the backlash from your view. Not that they might not dig up something you don't know about, but at least you are in conversation about the topic. before people dig it up and you don't look [00:52:00] as complicit in hiding it.

Like we've seen this before, . This is not a surprise so many times that people are gonna pull up skeletons in folks' closet. So let's just pull them out before they get found.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wouldn't it be interesting. I've always felt like, can we watch, can we watch that person's journey? You know, they've gone away for six months, they've come back, they've said, oh, I'm doing the work.

Whatever that means. I'm listening to podcasts. I'd love to watch that journey. Like let, I'd love to watch them have the conversation to work with, to work with you and like go through the process and hear the thinking in here. You know, I would love it. So here, here's our pitch. .

Dr. Kira Banks: I think it'd be super fun.

I think people would say, Oh, no one would watch that. You know, people watch those shows. To be entertained, not to be, not to be schooled.

Julie Harris Oliver: Have you seen Queer Eye in the new iteration of it, people would eat it up?

Dr. Kira Banks: I think so too. So it's really a matter of someone being innovative enough and forward thinking enough.

Okay. [00:53:00] Producers and someone willing to take a risk. . Right. I've talked to some producers who say they're in, who are like, so we'll see. Time will tell.

Julie Harris Oliver: Good. All right. Well I'm here for it.

Dr. Kira Banks: Me too. Me.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. What, this is really my last question unless there are, um, questions I did not ask you that I should have asked you, but what, what gives you hope during this time?

Who, what keeps you going?

Dr. Kira Banks: So, uh, one of my mentors, Beverly Daniel Tatum, reminds us that hope is a discipline. That it's not just something we have, that we have to practice it. And so I remember that because I don't expect hope to just be. , like, I've gotta practice it. I've got to engage it. And so what gives me hope is that there are still people who are interested in thinking deeply about this work.

So we know that like the numbers in terms of jobs, d e i positions have been laid off at higher rates than other positions. Um, so [00:54:00] we know, and we know that we're almost three years post George Floyd's murder, that these things ebb and. I'm not surprised. History, psychology, sociology, all tell us that things will ebb and flow and that other moments in our history when we had.

Great progress. We also saw great backlash, and so what gives me hope is that we have opened the doors, pushed things further than they were in the past, and that I see people who are trying to not let the doors close as far so, yes. Folks are not like, my phone is not ringing off the hook the way that it was in the summer of 2020, but it's still ringing.

And I think that's because there's a snowball of folks who are like, oh, this isn't just about unconscious bias training. This isn't just about being nice. Like this is bigger work, kind of like leadership development is big work, kind of like management skills is big work. [00:55:00] And so I see people continuing to invest in the work.

I continue to get calls about whether it's professional development or strategic consulting or I kind of joke, I have an Olivia Pope arm of my work where it's like clean up on aisle, whatever, like make this mess go away, scandal sort of stuff. . So I'm getting all of those types of calls, which means even though.

Not the fad in the way, in a way that it was, and that people have jumped off the bandwagon and there has been backlash, which just made some people clam up. That there's some who are willing to work through it. And to me, that gives me hope. And I'm actually working on a talk that's like, that is about that.

Like how to, how to commit to this work in the midst of backlash or how to keep moving even when it's not popular. . So those, those glimmers give me hope. Okay,

Julie Harris Oliver: good. Yeah. Dr. Kira Banks, thank you so much for being on the other 50%. How do people find you and where should they be following you?

Dr. Kira Banks: You can find me on all the [00:56:00] socials.

I'm Dr. Kira Banks across all the platforms, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. I'm probably forgetting something. Right. Um, you can also find me at my website@kirabanks.com. Yeah, no doctor there. Okay,

Julie Harris Oliver: great. Thanks so much.

Dr. Kira Banks: Thanks for having me. It was good to chat with you.

You've been listening to the other 50% A Herst of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris. Oliver, thank you to Dr. Kira Banks for sharing her expertise. You should immediately go and subscribe to Raising Equity and follow her on social media. And special thanks to Jay Rowe, Danny Rosner and Allison McQuaid.

For the music, go check out the Catch A Break podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. Thanks for listening. See you next time.