Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] You're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find me and my work@julieharrisoliver.com, and you can find the podcast at theotherfiftypercent.com, all spelled out in letters. We are continuing our conversation about inclusion, equity, and diversity with Bree Frank, founder of Hue

You Know, as an accomplished television executive and advocate for people of color and media, Bree is passionate about creating opportunities for professionals of all backgrounds. With over 20 years of professional production experience, she's produced over 300 hours of unscripted television, including MTV's Room Raiders, TLC's, A Makeover Story.

And the award-winning television format, Wife Swap. She has also contributed to a number of series during a 10 year run in production management for Zodiac Media's New York office. In 2018, Bree took a leap of faith and moved her family to Los Angeles, California to begin a new chapter of life. She quickly landed at [00:01:00] Matador Content and served as the executive in charge of production where she managed a robust development slate as well as projects for Disney + Apple TV + Crackle and Showtime.

Most recently, Bree was at Hello Sunshine as their senior Vice President of Physical Production for Unscripted, where she was tapped four years ago to build out physical production services. Bree served as an executive on Hulu's Fair Play, Roku's MeetMe in Paris, and Apple's My Kind of Country, as well as a healthy slate of brand funded projects.

Bree's passion is to tell exceptional stories and move the television zeitgeist forward while championing diversity, equity, inclusion, and access. Bree dropped so much truth in this episode. There were a couple times that I forgot I had to keep up my end of the conversation. I just wanted to keep listening here.

Now it's your turn, Bree Frank. Thank you for being on the other 50%.

Bree Frank: Thank you for having me.

Julie Harris Oliver: Let's start, uh, let's start at the beginning. Let's talk about your career and then talk about how that led you into the Hue You Know work.

Bree Frank: Yeah, so [00:02:00] my career, I like to say that I fumbled my way into film and television.

I always knew that I wanted to be in and it, it'd always been my North Star, um, but I had no clue how to do it, and so I just kept making mistakes until I landed in the right place. Um, And so I went to school for journalism, and then I worked in advertising for a little bit, and then 9/11 happened and I had a quarter life crisis that was like right on time.

Mm-hmm. And I decided that I had already defaulted to my plan B. And so I made a decision to like just venture into television and see what it would look like. And so I begged this company, uh, to take me in as an intern at 25 and didn't get paid to work there. Wait, what were you doing before that? I was working in advertising, I was working, I was working at B B D O on Campbell soup, AIG and Swanson, in account management.

And it was like a huge big company. And I was just, I think just way too young to understand a rollout of healthcare plans and [00:03:00] like equity in like 401k. I was giving all my money to the gap in express as we all were in our twenties as we all do. Um, and then I realized, I had this really interesting conversation with this woman, uh, Chris Starak, who sat at my desk and I was really, really curious about her.

Cause she was at the job for 20 years and she would lean on my like half pony wall desk and tell me all about her life. And one day I was like, how did you end up here? And she was like, well, you know, day I graduated from high school and I came.

I'm like, oh no, but no, that's what was gonna happen

here. So she was really pivotal in my decision to like jump into television because she was just, she like fell into this thing that I had just fell into and I was like, oh no. Like I am not going to look up 20 years [00:04:00] later doing commercials.

Julie Harris Oliver: You were like, you were my future and I don't like it.

Yeah, exactly. I had a similar moment. I started in commercials too and I was on a call, I was on a phone call where we were having a very serious conversation about Tony the Tiger and the sociological implications and our generational relationship with Tony the Tiger. And I was like,

I'm out, I'm out, I'm out.

Bree Frank: And you know, I also realized it was time for me to go cuz they kept asking me to do my job and I was annoyed like, no. Oh, I get it. Oh, that's actually, that's in my job description and I don't wanna do it anymore. That's not you. That's me. I'm gonna leave. Yeah. Time to go. It's time to go.

Okay. So then you went to another company and worked as an intern.

Tell us. So I worked

as an intern. I took off the garbage, I helped with payroll, I did anything that they asked me to do, Keith, they're like, can you, um, can you record and go out on like casting, it was for Room Raiders, MTV season two. And I was like, yep, yep. And they're like, can you do [00:05:00] trade outs and help us with like, putting together like the baskets for like the late show?

And I was like, yep. And like, anything that they asked me to do, I did it. And then they asked me to be like a full-time freelance employee after about like a week, like only a few days. And so I ended up staying there and kind of like cut my teeth in the world of New York City production, which is very different from Hollywood.

Mm-hmm. And then I stayed there for a little while. Then I was unemployed, like I was Oh, a freelancer. It means you just say goodbye to me whenever, and then I don't get paid. This is interesting. Um, yeah, that's hard. And so I did that for a little while. I moved to Hollywood with my best friend and lived in Marina Delray, hoping that I would like make it, and I fell flat on my face.

And then I went back to New York City and then I was gonna give up, and then a friend called me to, um, be a production assistant. On a show called Y Swap and I was like, sure. And then I was at that company for 10 years. And so then once I was [00:06:00] at that company I kind of like learned the language and how things work and just kind of stayed there for a little while.

And that's really, that was like the foundation of my television career. So what was your job at that time? So at the time I was, uh, I started out as a PA and then I was moved to a production coordinator and then I went on the PM track and then I had to lead that company to finally get the title as line producer.

And then from line producer, I jumped up pretty quickly because you spent 10 years at a company, you kind of do all the things. Yeah. Um, and, but you can't get the title or the money. Uh, and so I got So you got away. Yeah, exactly. So I left and once I left I went to, uh, Matador Content in New York. And Leah Colton Gonzalez, who was like my second like, call it, or third boss in the industry, was like, of course you're a line producer.

And she, because she gave me that title, it was, I was able to accelerate in a more meaningful way where before I was just kind of stuck in this really weird place, [00:07:00] like where I could, I just couldn't get the title right. But doing the work. But I was totally doing the work.

Julie Harris Oliver: That happens. That happens, yeah.

And was it always unscripted in that world?

Bree Frank: So it was always unscripted for two seconds. I worked in, uh, scripted, but I was doing trade outs. I worked in this film called a Great New Wonderful, an independent film, and it was something with Kevin Bacon and I did something with Edie Falco, and they needed.

I traded out like Wonder Bread, uh, that's a weird memory to come up. So I am a little bit of a, like a sleuth. And so this company, they took a contract as production companies do to say like, yes, we can do the thing. And so I would just get on the internet. This is like back in the days when it was like MapQuest and Yahoo was your search engine, not Google.

And I would call up companies because I worked in advertising, I would know who to speak to and then I would get to the person on the phone who could help me do the trade out for the films. And so I did that. But other than that, it was really unscripted because I did not know how [00:08:00] to get unscripted. And it turns out years later, there is no clean way to get in.

Right. It's still, it's literally, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, oh. Um, just for the audience, cuz no one has talked on this show before about trade out, so can you explain what that is?

Bree Frank: Yeah, so basically you call, you find a partner right in brands in marketing and you, you basically get them to give you a product in order to be placed on a show.

And so there was like a list of items that were, you know, gonna be featured in the movie and you would just contact the brands and see if they would give it to you for free instead of the project paying for it. And so I was really good at getting on the phone and getting people to give me stuff for free.

Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you might also call that product placement Product.

Bree Frank: Yeah, product placement.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So then what happened?

Bree Frank: So then what happened? So then I was there for 10 years. I went to Matador and I had probably the most fun I'd ever had in production. It was such a little like, almost like a [00:09:00] family of people who were like, they were like laid back but hardworking.

And while I was there for a minute, I had to tell them I had to leave. Cause it was like I was on a show that was like going away. There was like no money for it. And they kept wanting to keep me around. And I went to my boss like, you ha, you have to stop paying me. I'm gonna leave, but I promise you I'll come back.

And so after that, I took a one year job at McGill and I was work, I worked on a show called Diesel Brothers, and then after that, Oh my goodness. I went back to Matador and worked on a show that was canceled after shooting the first day. And then as it turns out, what, what happened? It was focus grouped and the focus group hated the show, but literally it was the plot of the show.

Like, do you know what I mean? Like you got the Project Green Lit because someone was a character. Yeah. And then they focused with the character and people were like, we hate her. And it's like, That's the show. Yeah.

It's hard to build a show around

that. So it kinda went [00:10:00] away and I think it got life again, but I wasn't there.

Um, and then a friend of mine, um, Gina McDermott owned a company called Blackfin and I was kind of like looking for work. And one of my production managers who I recommended to the job, who then made his way up to VP of production, I was talking to him like, oh yeah, I'm looking for work for the first time.

It's like, really strange. And he was like, would you come work for me? And I was like, do you have money? And he was like, yeah. And I was like, yeah, you can be my boss. I don't care. So I was there for a year and then my husband and I had been talking about moving to la. And it always had been like in my back thoughts of like, I really wanna go and see if I can do it in ma, like make it in California.

And so we talked about it and then one, it was like, I guess 2017 we're like, okay, we're gonna do it. And then we just started looking at homes on Zillow. And then we brought our kids out here for Christmas night and like the 21 houses in four days, didn't find anything. And then went back, found a house on Zillow, had my friends [00:11:00] visited, I was like, this is it.

Put the money down without seeing it. Oh my gosh. And then my husband had to have like a Aer, like a spinal like sur back surgery thing. And while he was in anesthesia, I found another house and I pulled out of the original house. And when he woke up I was like, I did a thing. Um, And then I was, uh, then, so then we talked to the doctor and I was like, how long before he can get on the flight?

Cause I have 10 days to change my mind about his house that we're gonna buy. Oh my god. And like a week. And so he flew, we flew out to California, looked at the house, was like, let's go. And then we, then I moved to California. Oh my God. No, I'm a little nuts, but I also feel like you just gotta pay the dumb tax.

So I'm like, I'll make any mistake and just pay the tax and kind of move on from it. And so when we moved to California, I had no intention on working for a little bit. I just kind of wanted to see what I could do. And then the company that I worked at Matador, my old boss, Leah, was like, Hey, are you moving to California?

And I was [00:12:00] like, yes. And she said, are you serious? I'm like, well, I just closed on my house. Yeah, that's serious. Pretty serious. And so she said, okay, well there's a, an executive in charge of poi uh, production position available at the LA office. Are you interested? And I said, yes, I am. And she said, okay, great.

And so we worked it out. I finished out at Blackfin, and then I came to la and then I worked that job for two years. And then in the middle, towards the end of my contract, I happened to have a latte with a wonderful woman named Liz Jenkins. We know Liz Jenkins. After an old boss was like, Hey, there's someone a Hello Sunshine, they're really thinking about going into physical production and unscripted, do you wanna like just meet with her?

And I was like, sure. So I met with Liz and we had a lovely, we showed up in like the same outfit, which is like so strange. Like almost the same outfit, same color. And then we had, it was supposed to be like a half hour meeting, it was like an hour and a half, almost two hours. And then we had a chat and then I started consulting for them for about nine months.

And then she created [00:13:00] the position of, uh, vice president of physical production for and scripted. And then that became my journey at Hello Sunshine, which I just ended in April. Incredible. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Um, I asked Liz this, and then I'll, I'll ask you this also. Is it, is it as great as it looks on the outside?

Bree Frank: It's an amazing company.

So the, the thing about it is just like, it's really interesting because you have so many wonderful women like sitting in one place. They're all like truly, um, aspirational and groundbreaking. And so it's hard, but it's also worth it. But it depends on like who you are and what it is that you wanna kind of get into with it.

I left in love, like, you know, like, I just wanted to, I wanted to venture focus on my nonprofit, which we'll talk about. And also I really wanna venture into scripted. And I realized I had to be honest, like there's no way that I could do what it is that I wanna do and still be there because it is much more lean than I think people would really understand about it.

It's all consuming. Yeah. It takes up because of what they're building is [00:14:00] too meaningful for you to have like a side hustle. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I feel all in. Yeah. You gotta, you, you have to be all in. And I'm at a, just like a really interesting pivotal time in my own life and so, you know, I did the thing.

I know that I can do it and it was wonderful. And I have such a deep love for Liz Jenkins and Sarah and so many people that are there. Um, but my life is about me, not about the shiny

Julie Harris Oliver: thing. Yeah. Like when Tracy Ellis Ross did that, did you see that speech where she was talking about how she wasn't having children?

And people give her a lot of feedback about it and she was like, look it, my life is mine. Like, what a revolutionary statement. My life is mine. It's not all these other peoples who have expectations of

Bree Frank: me. Yeah. I tend to look at my life from like, the perspective of like, what's gonna make the eulogy. Hmm.

Right. And so I just kind of like blow it out and I feel like, you know, I, for a large part of my life, you, you kind of don't have control over what it is that you're doing, right? Yeah. [00:15:00] So, the moment that I can actually have agency and autonomy and take the responsibility for the thoughts in my head and the whispers that are coming to me saying like, there's something else.

Like, I just help. I wanna show up for it. And I think that what's different for me and what happened once I turned 40, 40 is that I'm willing to be wrong about it, right? So where like most people are like afraid to venture into the thing because failure has like this super negative connotation to it.

I'm willing for fa, I'm willing to fail for things that I just feel in my gut are meant for me. Mm-hmm. And I would rather walk away saying, I tried than for it just to live as a dream inside my head.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my God. I just want everybody to pause on that and hear that. And it seems really, uh, You know, since the pandemic, and there's a lot of talk about, a lot of people are going through this right now, like, oh, I should be doing something different with my life and I'm not really sure what that is.

And then to make, to make the leap and to trust [00:16:00] that, that following your gut is gonna lead to good things. I mean, that's what we all should be doing.

Bree Frank: I think that, like, I've spent, like, you know, like most of your life, I feel like I've all reached, reached for the thing while holding onto the thing mm-hmm.

In the past. And I wanted to like, you know, like when a baby reaches out for you, they do it with both arms. Yeah. That's, I wanna reach for my life with both arms is the, is the way that I would articulate it. And I just can't, I don't wanna live any other way anymore.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my God. Have you done a TED talk yet?

Because I would, I would put your TED talk on a loop. Okay, so what is, what is the whisper?

Bree Frank: So the whisper for me is for stillness, right? Like I really wanna get still, I've been working since I was 14. I'm really good at working, right? I'm really good at being like, you proved it over an overachiever. You know, I skipped the 10th grade, I got a full academic scholarship to college.

I've always like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Like she's a good person, and go, right? [00:17:00] And now I'm kind of leaning into the uncertainty of me not knowing how to do the next thing without having like a scarcity mindset that if I don't know, it means that I'm less thin. Yeah. So the, the answer is truly like, I don't know.

I know that I'm passionate about my nonprofit and the work that I do, but I know that that is my passion, but not necessarily my calling. And so I will always do that work in some way, shape, form, or fashion. I'm trying to focus on getting it to the place where it, I believe it needs to be. And then in terms of my professional career, I don't know yet.

And I'm, I know that I wanna work and scripted. I don't know what that looks like yet. I don't know where that is yet, but I'm open to the possibility of someone seeing me for more than my past.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Let's talk about the nonprofit. Okay. Okay. It's called Hue You Know, talk about what is it and what was the genesis for it?

Bree Frank: Okay. So [00:18:00] how it happened, he was a nonprofit organization that focuses on diversity, equity, and inclusion for black indigenous people of color in film and television. Right. That's like the elevator sentence for it. How it came to be is actually interesting and it has to do a lot with like where my life was when I started at I think 37 or 38.

I am known for having insomnia and I was having like one of those nights where I couldn't sleep and I woke up in the middle of the night. It was like two 30 something in the morning and I looked at, you know, I could tell it was like in the middle of the night. So I looked at my phone for the time and then when I saw the time, I saw the date and the date said February 1st.

And I noted to myself in my mind like, oh, it's the first day of black history. And as I was trying to get myself back to sleep, trying to figure out how many hours, like 3 30, 4 30, 5 36, right? I said to myself like, oh, well what are you doing to contribute to black history? And so that [00:19:00] thought spiraled me into how I could be more active.

You will often hear me say like, everyone has a version of protest. Right? And so when I think about Hugh, Hugh as like my protest, I have low arches in two kids, so marching is probably not gonna be the thing that I can do Do. That's not your lane. It's not necessarily my lane low arches and do this. So I do think that like I re, I originally just started it as like a way to create a safe space for black indigenous people of color.

Right? And I think at the time you were just saying people of color, like bipo wasn't necessarily a thing. Mm-hmm. And I thought like, I am always alone in the room. I'm a black woman in production management. And I often have to be quiet and like swallow my humanity in order to exist inside a lot of these spaces to learn the skillset and to prove worthiness.

And I had acquired, at the time I was like a line producer, right? Like I had acquired a certain set of skills and I just [00:20:00] wanted to give it away. Cuz I do believe that like, as a human, we had to figure out what you love and you give it away, right? So I was like, I'm just gonna create a space and just tell everyone everything that I know.

And then when people don't have, when they have questions, if I know the answer, I'm gonna give it away. And so I like combed through all my Facebook contacts. It was mostly work colleagues. It was like a thousand people and only 27 people were people of color. Hmm. People and I said, Hey everyone, like just add who you know.

And literally again, two 30 in the morning, I'm hysterically giggling to myself, husbands sleep in the bed, like trying to keep quiet, trying to keep the light down, add who you know, I think this is gonna be fantastic, fantastic for us. Let's just show up for each other and be there and be community. And I think by the end of the month there were like 500 or a couple of hundred people that were in the group.

And then I think by the end of the year we are like 2000, 2,500 and we just hit like 21,000, um, [00:21:00] six or seven years later. And so it's really interesting to me a very like, like what happens when you make your thought a thing? Yeah. Right? Because I could have kept it in my head and been like, somebody should create a group that's safe.

And then I was somebody. Somebody really Ana. Um, and so it was a really powerful lesson for me and what happens when I allow myself to make something that I believe in tangible and what can happen for it. And so it it, it's just this thing that has blown up into proportions that I still don't have language for.

And now it's a nonprofit. I turned into a nonprofit in 2020. We had panels and mixers and mentorships, and we work with studios and networks. And I was one of the founders for something called Coded four Inclusion, which helps networks and studios like find talent and was able to leverage this thing that had already been in existence called, uh, website, called Staff me Up and have them optimize their website to make it more intentional.

Cause I [00:22:00] get so tired of people like whispering to me that they were looking for like a black producer or an Asian producer. But I'm like, Hey, do your whispers online. Like you can here, you can go, here's this group of people. Like you can find 'em right here. There you go.

Julie Harris Oliver: And also that really flies in the face of I, I have heard many in executives say, well, there are no people of color who are qualified at this level to do this thing.

We have to go to kindergarten and start a pipeline program. You gathered 21,000 people. Like, yeah, what are you doing people,

Bree Frank: exactly. And so the, what's interesting about Hugh is like there are actors on it, right? And there are people who own production companies. There are people on the studio side, there are freelancers, there are people who work in marketing and branding because like me, didn't know how to get into television, like tried to find my way through commercials.

What if we just looked at people in their skillsets and try to figure out how to cross pollinate them and like just taught them the lexicon of our world so you can build up a skillset. And so I, I know it's not the problem. I know it's how you think about it. [00:23:00] And so I kind of come. I come from it from a very, the perspective of I am the person I am effectively fighting for and I know what hurdles I had to overcome.

So I just try to knock 'em down for other people and just try to, because I have like the respect and the prestige of being an executive and working for the shiny beautiful, like, you know, hello Sunshine, you know, for the past, like, what was like three or four years of my life. Let me have a conversation with you, peer to peer, and tell you what you can't see.

Beautiful. And what are they not seeing? I think that what folks don't see is that, You can't wake up in 2020, Christopher Columbus racism and be like, oh, look what we found. Right. And then,

Julie Harris Oliver: hold on. Not Christopher Columbus. Racism. Like, like, like how a lot of white people just discovered, oh, there's still racism in 2020.

Bree Frank: Yeah. Yeah. Like, welcome to the party. Yeah, we've been waiting. Yeah. Right. You kind of like [00:24:00] walk into it and then you think that your heart is the work. Right. So it's like that. Like yes. And

Julie Harris Oliver: well, you can do a Hearts and Minds tour. Yes. As we found for years and never get to the point of now I'm gonna take action.

Bree Frank: And so first you have to acknowledge that there have been years of exclusionary practices and while it's very well meaning for you to be able to want to fill all of these vacant roles now that you can like see other humans, the truth is that if you have been able to make it through the oppression Olympics that exists within like Hollywood and you are a person of color, like whatever your other ism is, right?

You probably don't need anyone to figure out that you exist because you're, you ha you can create your own lane. You can define your own thing. So people are calling you and you're like, my dance card is booked through 2027. I don't need you. Right. Who need you are the [00:25:00] people that rung under them. Right.

Or the, the people that are under them to be, they need to be invested in, they need to be nurtured, and they're not gonna necessarily be ready for the thing you're trying to set them up for. Because putting someone in a position is not enough. You need infrastructure around that person. Right. Or Russia just setting people up to fail.

Mm-hmm. And so I think that a lot of people, rightfully so, like invest into, you know, high schools and college programs and they're like, oh, this is where the, the magic is. Right? Yes. And, and, Yes. And right. A lot of people think it's top down. We, oh, we need executive buy-in. Yes. And it's also middle out who are the people in managerial positions that you aren't looking, giving a second glance to.

Like, you need to be able to acknowledge that there are people who are just stuck and quiet and afraid to tell you that they want more because they've been positioned [00:26:00] to just be grateful for being in the room.

Julie Harris Oliver: Who's that manager who's been there for 10 years that you've overlooked for promotion? Every single time?

Bree Frank: Yes. And so I think that like, like Sarah Harden talks about like being like a part of the magic, right? So like when someone's in the room, you might overlook how important it is to let someone see your thought process so they can understand the business imperatives, right? And so they come in, they may say something that's off and you're annoyed, but they don't know because no one's let them in the damn room, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: I hear this a lot, like people, especially on production, kind of like the older producers who have gone through, you know, their journey to get where they are. And then the younger people come in, Hey, you said you wanted to hear my voice. I told you the thing. Why aren't you listening to me? And it's been shut down.

Whatever their idea was with no explanation of Yes, that's a great idea, that's gonna cost us 3 million. So we've already thought through why we're not going to do that, [00:27:00] but they don't have the conversation. So the person is left with they're, they're not gonna listen to me and they don't actually wanna hear my voice.

When Yes, if we had that two way conversation, then you're mentoring the people up and then they're gonna know.

Bree Frank: Yes. I think that so many folks in Hollywood, because we are dealing with limited budgets, it's a very scary time specifically in Hollywood right now. Mm-hmm. Right. It was a very scary time during Covid when everyone, uh, like tapped into some of the disparities that exist in the, this industry and then it became a boom and everyone was available and the people were getting pulled up and substances like vacuum of wokeness, uh, right.

That you have to just account for the reason why you have a plan A, B, C, d, E is cuz you were allowed to fail without the same penalty that it would be for a person of color. Yeah. You got to try again. You got to try again. And no one thought, no one treated you. Like an other [00:28:00] or like exceptionalize your being there, right?

Mm-hmm. And I think that, um, I was honored to receive the real screen, um, action award. Inaugural action award for the work that I do in d e I. And one of the things that I said in my speech is like, you have fought really hard to get where you are. I am here to say, people who are doing the d e I work are here to say it was not a fair fight, right?

So, yes, you fought to get there. Of course you did. You worked your ass off. I'm not trying to diminish it, I'm just saying that you fought in a, it was a stacked deck, right? And so I don't need a favor. I need to be like, embraced in the room and what I, what I say needs to matter. And that doesn't mean I don't want.

Criticism. It doesn't mean that I don't want growth. I just don't need the tax to be higher than everyone else. Everyone else? Yeah. Because I missed out on a room that [00:29:00] first I didn't even know about, and then it was very clear that I wasn't invited in.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then going back to that feedback piece, how much of a disservice is it when people in power are afraid to give real feedback to the black person in the room?

Bree Frank: Yes. Like, why can't you find the language? Because I think that everyone is like protecting their own, their own selves and they don't wanna be like canceled. Right? Yeah. What if I say it wrong? What if I say it wrong? What if you knew that you were gonna say it wrong? And what if you approach it from the space of knowing that you might get it wrong and not because you intentionally wanted to get it wrong, but it's because you have been educated and raised to get it wrong.

We've been raised not to see one another. Mm-hmm. That is a very real thing. It is not by accident that you do not know about the true story in the fullness in of humanity of black people. That is not, that is a system who is made sure by design. It's by [00:30:00] design. But now that you know about it, what are you gonna do about it?

That's the thing. Yeah. Now that you know, what are you gonna do about it? Because you can't pretend like you don't know how to care. I know what Carol, do you know what I mean?

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. I think all people also pretend they don't have the power. Yeah. Someone above them has the power. It's like, but you're an executive vice president.

You don't have any power.

Bree Frank: Yeah. And humanity starts with you. And I also, one of the things that I've been saying for years is that like if you wanna change things, you have to become a student to your power and observe what it does in a room. Mm-hmm. And take ownership of it in a meaningful way. And then what is it, what is it that you can take that you have agency over?

Like what is it that you can change? Right? Maybe you can't change the hiring practices, but you can change the way you treat the people that are there right now. Maybe you can't change [00:31:00] who gets invited to the meeting, but you can have a meeting after the meeting to be like, Hey, we just had a meeting and here's, here are the things that are the in business imperatives, and here's what you need to know and here's what, do you have any questions?

And get curious about what someone doesn't know and not penalize them for it. Mm-hmm. You can control that. You can use your power if you have access to information.

Julie Harris Oliver: Your power is in delivering the information, which is the opposite, I think, of what people are brought up thinking is their power is holding onto the information.

Bree Frank: Exactly. Exactly. So, I don't know. I just kind of feel like when people think about the work of diversity, equity, equity, inclusion, and access, that is just treated as an elective. And it kind of drives me nuts because it's staying, um, to people that hu you know, like someone else's humanity is an elective, right?

You get to visit it when you want to, like you're going to the damn zoo and then you get [00:32:00] to, you know, oh I see it. Oh, it's horrible. And you're like, just not acknowledging that. You just elect to go see something in a cage.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, everything else is so much important, so much more important cuz we have to get this on time and on budget and you don't know what I'm dealing with and I have to deliver this show.

I can't also solve racism while I ha I have two weeks to get this thing done. Yeah. I mean that's what I, I think that's what happens and historically it's been acceptable to Yeah,

Bree Frank: to say that. I think that, yeah, I think that there has been a lot of asking for permission to be a human. I've had like studios, you know, that they come and they're like, well, we have this problem and we wanna be able to, you know, let the showrunners, or let the whomever know that this is really important to us and then I, and

Julie Harris Oliver: we're never gonna ask you about it again.

Bree Frank: Yes. And I say, well, are you asking them? Why are you telling them? Right. Think about the business declarative sentences that are made that are [00:33:00] non-negotiable, that happen every single day. And then think about your tone and language when you talk about D E I A. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Apologetic. Please, if you don't mind. If it's not too much trouble.

I hate to bother your creative impulses, but yes. Yeah, I don't, I don't get it. I don't ha Why can't we be as declarative as this is what budget has to be, this is when you have to deliver, here is your schedule.

Bree Frank: Yes. Um, and I think it's to say, like, to acknowledge that, um, there are wonderful, experienced people who can absolutely, absolutely do this work right now.

Then there are wonderfully skilled people who don't have the experience because of this exclusionary practice that we have a responsibility to groom and to bring up so that they have the understanding of what needs to happen in order for our projects to be executed. And that does require a time and investment and not just thoughts and [00:34:00] prayers.

Right? And so there is like, there's some things you're gonna be able to address right now and fix. And there's some things we're gonna have to wait for because we have to pay the tax of forgetting about humanity.

Julie Harris Oliver: How do you talk to people about incorporating the work into the job?

Bree Frank: Well, part of it is just like, I think that you can like put in a set of practices and tell people about, like, when you're doing interview questions, make sure that you're asking, not just, you're not hiring for diversity, but when you're hiring other people, cuz you cannot do this without people who are, you know, have been systemically in power.

Every interview question should be like, can you tell me a little bit about, uh, how you have implemented diversity, equity, and inclusion practices in your hiring? How important is to you tell, give me an example.

Julie Harris Oliver: That should be one of the criteria of leadership.

Bree Frank: Every single person who's being interviewed for a job should be asked [00:35:00] that question.

Yeah. And if they don't answer that question correctly, they. Should not get the job unless you have resources to provide them so that they can learn how to do the thing. Okay. Because it's 2023, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: If you're just now thinking about it or not thinking about it and thinking it's someone else's job and someone else's problem.

No, it's everybody's job.

Bree Frank: Yeah. I think so much of it is just like, um, I think the hardest thing, like you can tell someone like have a, you know, a speaker series, right? Or, and have someone come from different marginalized groups. You can have the conversation where you say, here are you, look, this is, here's how to look at a skillset on resumes and not think about someone's direct experience, but their indirect skills.

And, you know, you can do all of that and none of that will really fix the way you value humanity, right? Like you, until you really get to the heart of, um, that you're [00:36:00] not really going to. You're not really gonna fix the problem. You're like, you're putting a bandaid over like a bullet wound, right? Mm-hmm.

And so I think the companies come up with d e i practices, and they have people do like the, the trainings the same way that after the Me Too movement, a lot of the sexual harassment video trainings came up and people just glow through and they click, click, click, click, click, they

Julie Harris Oliver: roll their eyes, they make, they make sexual harassing jokes.

Oh God. We have to get through this.

Bree Frank: Imagine if someone like gave you a, a, a child to watch and they're like, feed it. Change the diapers, right? And then like, make sure it sleeps. Yeah. Keep it alive. Well, I'm killing this motherhood thing. That baby went to sleep. I fed it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I change of diaper, but.

The soft skills of like hugging a child, making sure the child felt seen, like that's where motherhood is, right? Mm-hmm. Like that's where the thing is, [00:37:00] right? Like the, the nurturing aspects of D E I A I think often aren't addressed. And then the same way, one of the things I've been kind of, um, I've been toiling with is like, imagine a world where, think about any friendship that you have, right?

And how people understand that you value them, right? Or if you are in, um, a disagreement with a, a, a spouse or a partner or whatever the thing is, and they're like, you didn't see me, didn't you see that I was upset? Didn't you see? Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So like, there's a little bit that's really interesting to me that like, As a, I'm gonna say specifically as a black woman, I think the, one of the things that hurt the most is knowing and watching like white people care.

I know, I know what you're, I know what you're capable of. I know what your care looks like, right? When you [00:38:00] see, you know, a dolphin being murdered, right? Or if you see oil over a, a dove and, and there are tears streaming from your

Julie Harris Oliver: eyes. It's when something happens to a dog and everyone, something happens to a dog.

And Katrina, we were more worried about the dogs getting out. Than the people.

Bree Frank: Then when it comes to black people, when they tell you, who you, who they are, what they experience, what their lives are like, that you're not dialed into that from human to human. And it doesn't mean that you can't care about dolphins or dogs, but it's like, where have you been?

Mm-hmm. Right? Like so much of the, um, disconnection in humanity is people saying to you like, where have you been? Right. And just like accepting that part of getting it wrong. Yeah. So like, even if [00:39:00] like, if there's a child who is like adopted, some people search for their birth parents, right? Some people want nothing to do with them.

Or, and when the relationship happens, some people are gonna openly embrace it. Like, oh my God. Like, well, like welcome. And then some kids are gonna be like, where have you been? Yeah. And both experiences are real. And they are true when they both deserve equal amounts of respect. So you are gonna have the experience of black people who will say, oh my God, welcome to the party.

And then you're gonna have black people, anyone who's marginalized going, I'm upset. Like I have been in pain. Like, where have you been? How dare you. How dare you. Yeah. And both reactions have merit.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm surprised it's not more. How dare you? Yeah. I, it it's astounding how much welcome. Let's get on with it.

Bree Frank: There is, [00:40:00] yeah. And I think that, I mean, part of it is that that's true. Some of it is like survival, right? Like what does it mean to, to tell the whole truth in nothing but the truth to your oppressor? Like what is the currency you have to pay? Yeah. To not be welcoming. Some people are not willing to pay that tax.

Damn. It's deep. It's deep. Yeah. It's very deep. And like we're all worthy. And I know that everyone's like juggling all the things, right? You're never dealing with one thing at a time. You're like trying to figure out the thing at work and maybe a sick, and maybe you're struggling with infertility and, and, and, and, and, and.

Right. But where you can show up as a human and to believe people when they tell you who they are and what they've experienced. Right. And not like, try to qualify how you were not the person that believes that. I've come up with a term, and I'm saying I've come up with [00:41:00] it because I, I've been thinking about it for the last, like three months and I've said it that, um, I, in 2020 I've gotten a lot of woke bombing.

What is. This thing happened in 2020, and then there were so many tears, so many phone calls that so many black people received from people. Like, oh my God, was I like that? Or, can you believe I see you? And then when you start to meet other people, when they meet you for the first time, because people, like, if you have been like, uh, designated as a person in, uh, power, right?

You wanna let me know that you're safe. So then you start to run through all the things you know about black people and you're like, am my, am my neighbors a black? And I, I went to a black wedding and Black Lives Matter. And, and I'm like, I'm one of the good ones.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm one of the good ones. I'm a good person.

I'm a good person.

Bree Frank: Hi, my name's Bree, right? [00:42:00] And then people just like throw all the things that they learn onto. It's like, what would you like me to do with this? If you want me to see you as safe, be safe. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, I, I think they're looking for the grade. If you could, if you could bestow the grade upon our Yeah, yeah.

Book.

Bree Frank: Yeah. Well, you know, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. Ok. Ok. And oh, oh, Rosa Parks. Ok. You get an a, like, it's, you kinda have to kinda just like laugh at how scared people are. I have a theory that, like, what happened, like the, all the things that are happening, society all at once, everything all at once, uh, is people are so afraid that if they get something wrong, they, they're gonna morph into like someone who wears khaki pants and walks with a tiki torch, right?

That they don't wanna be affiliated or associated with that mentality. So they would destroy you to make sure that you don't think that. [00:43:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. When I, when I interviewed Dr. Kira Banks, you talked about, um, one of the real barriers for people is coming to grips with, uh, white people wanting to be a good person so badly that they can't see that they're sitting inside of a racist system.

Yes. Right. So you can't start to break apart the system cuz you're so consumed with, but I'm a good person. How can I, yeah. How can I be in this terrible system?

Bree Frank: It's like, well, you are, you are we all, are we all, are we all by the way, I'm in it too. Yeah. Right.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's like everyone's job to dismantle the system.

Bree Frank: Yeah. Then you need to be able to create disruption where it matters like your kids, um, when they are, are you welcome and are you safe in inside spaces where you aren't centering yourself? Right. Like when you think about your world, it's really interesting to have people like have all these like D E I A initiatives and they [00:44:00] want all of their colleagues in the, the, the community at work to change how they are.

But when they go home, they just go back to the rhythm of their lives that are just exclusionary by practice, like by the design of the system. And so then you want them to just like come in the world, start singing We Are the World. And like holding Tina in accounting. Like I don't understand

Julie Harris Oliver: like the black people in their lives are the work.

Yeah. And not just the black people in their lives.

Bree Frank: Yeah, exactly. And so I know that it's frustrating and I know that it's scary and I think that a lot of people don't talk enough about like the fear, right? Like D E I A work is not just about like diversity, it's about power, culture, and fear. Right. It's about power dynamics.

It's about like the way of life. It's about the constitution of a company that is not defined by the things you write on paper, but the lived experience of the, the community that that exists within, within that frame. Right. [00:45:00] It's about not just about the fear of what it means to show up as your authentic self and to be heard, but it's also like the fear of getting it wrong.

It's all the things, like, it's not one specific thing. No internship program is gonna fix like inherently racist practices, right? Like no. Um, pipeline program is going to change the power dynamics that exist inside Hollywood. Hollywood changes when we change.

Julie Harris Oliver: Mm-hmm. No press release or marketing campaign to make you look a certain way is gonna change the inside culture of your company.

Bree Frank: No, because if I wanna know who you are, I just look at your about us page. You can't lie to me about that. Mm-hmm. With all the pictures. Yeah. That's, that's your constitution. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. You know, we talked a lot about when I was, when I had a job recently, we talked a lot about, you know, stop talking about diversity and start talking about equity and inclusion and creating a space that diversity can [00:46:00] thrive in.

Cuz otherwise you can hire all the people you want if you're still gonna treat them terribly and they can't show up as themselves or they have to come as white people. Yeah.

Bree Frank: You've missed Yeah, and like, belonging. The, the idea of belonging. Think about like if you went on a road trip and you had the most people from different, uh, backgrounds in the car, what would the radio station be?

Who picks the radio station? Right? Yeah. You gotta karaoke and you're thinking about the songs that people sing. Right. Like you might belt out Bonjovi and I'm waiting for Luther Van Dros to kick it. Mm-hmm. Like, do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Both things are beautiful, but also to be black is to know all the white karaoke songs.

That was dominant culture. Yes. Dominant culture. Right. Like when people think about, it's always like, people are like, I don't know what to do. I'm like, do you go to films with all? Do you go watch movies with all black people in it? Why Or we not? Do [00:47:00] you think romcom with all black people is relevant to your life?

That's cost nothing except for the, the movie ticket.

Julie Harris Oliver: And it's such deep conditioning. Even when you think about, you know, gender, like we are all conditioned to be interested in stories about white

men.

Yeah. And, and men are not expected or conditioned to be interested in stories about women. And I think the same goes for race.

And we we're, we're all conditioned to enjoy, enjoy stories about white people

Bree Frank: and, and straightness and like, yes, the straightness thing is huge.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. The cis straight, white male.

Bree Frank: It's, it's all the things. And can I tell you something else that's really interesting to me that I thought, um, this might be like a, a pivot from the, the topic, but I think that it, it's, it's relevant.

Yeah. It's like as you try to do the work, especially, I wanna specifically say this to white woman, stop throwing white men under the bus. [00:48:00] Okay. There's a really interesting thing to me where I'm watching, uh, white women disassociate from white men and not take accountability for their behavior. Like, think about it this way, right?

There's something, we can't do this without everyone, right? Yeah. White women have a very interesting place in the society where they are absolutely oppressed, but they've also been high benefactors of oppression. And that in a lot of ways, like certainly like black women's oppression has been reliant on catering to white women.

Back to like, you go way, way, way back forever, but how, like the nursing of the babies and how we stood shoulder to shoulder being oppressed by white men, but white women were exalted [00:49:00] in the, in the mind frame during enslavement, right? Mm-hmm. And so I just kind of want, sometimes I want folks to dial into the like, where have you been?

Right? It goes back that far. Like just watching someone who looks like you in every way except, except for skin tone, disassociate from your humanity to save themselves. And that's hard to reconcile with. But the truth is that the only people on this planet that make white men who are their fathers and their brothers as white women, so hold them accountable in the silent and secret places that we will never be privy to.

Mm-hmm. Right In the bedroom in at Thanksgiving. Like, don't distance yourself from the people who are oppressing you and oppressing everyone else, because until we get them on [00:50:00] board, nothing's really gonna change. Right. You gotta kind of, of course, you gotta fold them into the process of. Having them responsible for a lot of the things that are happening in this world.

And that can't happen if everyone puts them in a box in a corner. Like, how do we think this is gonna pan out?

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, I, I think it's so true. And as a whole, I think we give them a pass with very low expectations, cuz it's always like, oh, let's focus on all of these groups who can make a difference. We're not even gonna try with those people cuz we know they're not gonna do anything, so let's not talk about how they vote and they get a complete pass.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Bree Frank: So agreed. We need to hold 'em. Yeah. Like I think that there is just like something to everyone taking accountability for how they show up. Black people have a responsibility for how they show up. Right? And sometimes it's like more, whatever your other ism is, forget it. It's like crazy consequential.

But everyone. Gets to come along for the ride of, [00:51:00] you know, humanity. Like no one, I don't think that anyone gets to abstain from the vote, you know what I mean? And so I just wanna sometimes like, I, like I'm watching this weird thing happen and I'm kind of like, what is that? I don't make white men, I can't have them.

They, when you're in Thanksgiving and they're saying crazy shit at the table, like, why

Julie Harris Oliver: is it, oh, we can't reach them, so let's just forget it. Yeah. Like what?

Bree Frank: Yeah, when I kinda, I feel like when I, when I think about my own life and, and how it is that I want to live it when I'm showing up as like my most authentic self, not trying to be perfect, but like just enamored by the process, I think that, oh, your hate is not safe with me.

Hmm. That's such a small step, right? Someone, cuz you can do it on a stage, right? You can do it in front of black people. I see you. I, you know, or

Julie Harris Oliver: you know, but it is, it is, it's shutting it down at Thanksgiving. [00:52:00] It's shutting it down in your living room. Like it's, it's not safe to talk that way inside your house.

Yeah.

Bree Frank: And I don't need you to start a war, right? I don't want you to not talk to your uncle Tim, but why can't you say, I, I actually don't believe that. Are you willing to sit in the uncomfort of that? Because how could you do the work at work, right. If you can't do it in your home, right. Oh, that's just my crazy stepdad.

I don't believe that my kids play with beautiful brown children or queer children and I welcome them into my home and pretend that they're safer. But then when I go off to a place, I am more concerned with how people think about me. And I'm more concerned with my comfort than I am with humanity. So in this moment when someone is saying something wrong and my stomach goes in a bubble and I feel like that actually makes me nauseous, what I'm gonna do in this moment is get quiet.

No, no.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think [00:53:00] the collectively those days kind of have to be over. Yeah. Quit

Bree Frank: giving that uncle a pass. Yeah. I always, I've been saying since, uh, 2017, which perfectly aligns with Donald Trump getting elected ruin Thanksgiving. Oh yeah. 2000, 2016. Like we're just ruin thanksgiving. Just sit at the table and be like, I'm not gonna take it anymore.

I feel like, I feel like this is not okay. Pass the peas. This is wrong.

Julie Harris Oliver: Pass the peas and knock it off.

Bree Frank: Yeah. Peas and knock it off.

Julie Harris Oliver: We're not doing that anymore. We're noting the old races guy at the table.

Bree Frank: Yeah. And then maybe he's always gonna be racist, but maybe he doesn't get to feel safe being racist around you.

Yeah. Maybe he's always gonna be homophobic. He knows. Go somewhere else with that. That conversation's not gonna be tolerated with me. And only, maybe only, you know, don't then get on a bullhorn and Twitter and tell everyone. But you [00:54:00] have now created boundaries around how you will allow other humans to be treated or talked about in your presence.

Isn't that one of the,

Julie Harris Oliver: I don't even know how to describe it, but one of the effects of having Trump around was people feeling so safe, being so shitty.

Bree Frank: Yeah. And I wanna hear what they have to say. I wanna know where I stand. Yeah, that's fine. Right. But you don't get to have a bullhorn. A bullhorn moment in my home.

Yeah. So I know that it's like, it's scary and it's hard and I don't want people to like go to war or cause conflict. You know, with, you know, stepping on a pulpit and declaring, but there, I think that there are micro progressions that we can make towards changing the way that we think and how we act and how we show up in spaces.

And once you kind of figure that out, then it's easier to step into the work and for [00:55:00] it to be meaningful.

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you just coin that word? I

Bree Frank: don't think I coined micro progressions. I did not, I don't think I coined it. I'm pretty sure I heard it on, uh, Instagram.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. I think we're gonna use that now. Let's go for it.

Let's go, let's start committing some micro progressions.

Bree Frank: Yeah. What are the little steps that you can take towards like, because then it's like, you know, uh, it's anything, it's being, uh, you know, a mother or a friend or a spouse. So like how do you, how do you let people know that you give a shit? Yeah. It's not just telling them, it's showing them.

Julie Harris Oliver: And it can be simple. It can be someone says something you say, it's not cool.

Bree Frank: We don't talk like that here. Exactly. Micro progressions.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. What else do you wanna tell me about hue you know?

Bree Frank: Um, I'm really excited about part of this break that I'm taking this sabbatical, which some people could coin in as a midlife crisis because I quit a very beautiful job, uh, in [00:56:00] the middle of a recession.

Um, but I would like to think about just the ability to like sit and reframe some of the work that we're doing in a meaningful way. And so my team and I had a beautiful like summit in early Q1 to think about how we could create more impact. And so we're working on pipeline programs that are bespoke to different studios and networks that we're trying to figure out like how to do it in a really meaningful way with training programs.

And so when you think about Hue, it's like we are curriculum connection and culture. And so we wanna build, have people, allies. You are welcome to teach, you know, a syllabus of like six weeks of like how to show run, how to direct, right? And let people go through like a training program so they can have different skill sets that are built inside a safe space.

And then we want to feed them into different pipelines for. [00:57:00] You know, stu production companies, um, that are like championed by studios. And then we wanna have like really tough conversations to just discuss like, where have you been? Let's talk about it. Yeah, let's, what scares you the most? And just like, you know, have panels and mixers and we're supposed to be at Martha's Vineyard this year, and so I just kind of wanna focus on this program and build capital and raise capital.

Cause it's very, very, very tough to run a nonprofit. Um, it's, it's in the name is what I'll say. Um,

um, and so I just want to like, you know, create more buy-in and be able to build the capital so I can impart some like, really meaningful change in this industry and kind of just disrupt it in love.

Julie Harris Oliver: Disrupt it in love. So if people are looking to hire people and they go to hue you know, do you have people in all kinds of disciplines and jobs and crafts?

Bree Frank: Yeah. So part of the partnership that I [00:58:00] have with Coded four inclusion is because, you know, as a nonprofit it's very difficult to create the resources to, to be able to answer all of the Incre inquiries. Mm-hmm. What we will do is if you reach out to us and you want us to post it in the, the Facebook community, which has a lot like very high engagement, like we're kind of happy to do that.

But the partnership that I have with Coded four inclusion for now is like sitting as the space where you can use very easy tools to find talent and kind of use their diversity mattress that I helped build with a, a very beautiful team of wonderful like leaders in the industry.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So if I was looking for someone I would go to coded for inclusion

Bree Frank: and you go to staff me and you can use Oh, staff me up.

Okay. Yeah. So you go to staff me up and then you can use their diversity tools and if you want like, uh, Amazon is signed on with assigned on with us in like Paramount, and they will lease out this product that we've created to the different production companies so long as you have a project with [00:59:00] them.

And then as a production company, if you wanted it, you could talk to Jamie Rosenberg about like how to sign up for an enterprise addition to be able to have these filters. And it's, I mean, it's. Really smart. Um, and really easy. It's like, it's easy as booking a flight, you know, on like Google Flights.

Great. Um, and I wanted it to be easy cause I know how hard everything is and it allows for you to be forward thinking and that you can kind of sleuth through who already exists and then build a contact list to call on instead of waiting till the last minute and you're like, I was looking for people but I had two days.

So I just call who I knew. You can kind of be forward thinking in the way that you approach it, which is I think, the best part of it. And then, and then in terms of other things, like people, like, I weirdly got an email from the Vice President's office looking for someone one, and I was like, whoa. The

Julie Harris Oliver: Vice President of the United States?

Bree Frank: Of the United States. Oh, wonderful. Cause [01:00:00] they wanna be able to just, you know, spread the, you know, spread the word, which I think is like, so I. Beautiful. That incredible, you know, people to intentionally hire and it doesn't guarantee anything, but it is a step in the right direction to make sure that a community that is often excluded is getting access to the opportunity to just apply.

Yeah. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: What is advice you would give to people who are trying to get in now

Bree Frank: to network your tail off? Find your elevator pitch and to do it unconventional, like do it in an unconventional manner. Like there is no clean line, I think, on how to get inside the business. Like if you wanna become a dentist, the road is, you know, it broke up for you.

Yeah. Step by step. Yeah. But, um, this industry, I think falsely says that it's, it's a meritocracy. And I think that there is, um, there is some truth to it, but it really is who you know, um, and you, and unfortunately you have to start at the u well, not unfortunately, but you [01:01:00] have to start at the bottom, right?

Like you have to pa or be an assistant and then network your tail off to help people undersee your value. But that's not gonna ha that's not gonna happen until you do the job that you were hired for, which is often overlooked.

Julie Harris Oliver: So be very clear about what that job is that you've been hired for.

Bree Frank: Yeah, I, um, I love people who come in and tell me that they wanna direct and it's like an assistant position.

I'm like, great. I would love to introduce, I would love to make you a director, but can you, can you first help me with my schedule?

Julie Harris Oliver: Ask me that? Yes, I could clerk, I could, I could be an accountant, clerk, or also if they need a director,

Bree Frank: I'm available. But it's like the desperation get inside this business.

Like there's no clean way. So you kind of have to, you gotta do a little bit of lying, like apply, do the job that you applied for and kind of like only talk about that. And then once people like you, then tell 'em what you really wanna do.

Julie Harris Oliver: And don't be afraid to tell people what you really wanna do. Yeah.

They wanna help you.

Bree Frank: First you have to do the job that you are [01:02:00] applying for. And I think that like I'm, I am telling you as someone, especially who works in production management, that you would get someone who tells you, you're like, yes, I wanna work in this department. I love physical production. And you look on their resume and it's like acting, directing.

It's like, you're gonna leave me in a year. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So like, you kind of gotta trick people. Let them fall in love with you and then tell 'em what it is that you wanna do. Once you have buy trick the people.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's our takeaway trick. The people.

Bree Frank: That's my, that's my tip. But if you go in and tell 'em, tell someone that you actually wanna do something else and you show other interests, like people are like, they're inherently selfish.

Like you want someone that's gonna stick around and not leave you in success. And I've had it happen to me a couple times. I, I hired someone I desperately needed and then, She got a call from SNL to be a writer and lasted like four days. And I was like, actually I would quit too. Like, I'm gonna be supportive.

Yeah,

Julie Harris Oliver: of course. Go take the SNL job, but also don't take your job in the first place.

Bree Frank: Yeah. But she got like the call of a lifetime [01:03:00] and I've actually, it's happened to me more times than I can count and I'm always supportive cause I want people to supportive cause I want people to follow their dreams, but in my mind I'm kinda like, damn it, I really need this one.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. What did I not ask you about that I should have asked you about?

Bree Frank: Ooh, I love this question and now I don't have an answer for it. Um, I don't know if you didn't ask me this, but I wanna say one thing, that privilege is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. That's what I wanna say.

Julie Harris Oliver: Do you wanna, do you wanna unpack that more?

Bree Frank: Yeah. That like, I, there's so much questions around, like, I didn't ask for this, right? It was just given to me like I worked hard for it and like, just don't center yourself. When you think about how to do this work, I think that you're gonna fail every single time to kind of get the point, and so you have a responsibility to just acknowledge that you have more privilege.

I don't care if it's only by a hair. It is [01:04:00] real. It exists. It gives you a leg up, so it is your responsibility to not just see. Things through the your lens, right? To open up your eyes to other people's humanity and what is it they see and do you believe them? And then once you believe them, do something about it.

Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: How are you gonna use that power for good?

Bree Frank: Yeah, for good.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Bree, thank you so much.

Bree Frank: Thank you so much for having me.

Julie Harris Oliver: You've been listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. Thank you to Bree Frank for sharing her wisdom. Her website is hueyouknow.com. That's H U E Y O U K N O w.com.

Special thanks to Jay Rowe, Danny Rosner and Allison McQuaid for the music. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcast and rate and leave a review If this is meaningful to you to help other people find it. If you have a company and you'd like to be a sponsor, please reach out. You can find me in my [01:05:00] work@julieharrisoliver.com.

If you're looking for simple, yet effective tools to bring to your production or even just want some help and starting to talk about it, give me a call and go check out the Catch A Break podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. Coming in July. We have our Project Greenlight season to go along with that series on max.

Thanks for listening. See you next time.