Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] Karen Horne, welcome to the other 50%.

Karen Horne: Hi, Julie. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you today.

Julie Harris Oliver: Me too. Now I know. Right now you're the SVP of Diversity, equity and Inclusion of North America at Warner Brothers Discovery.

Correct. That's impressive. , why don't you tell us what is in your scope?

Karen Horne: I have remit over everything our company does, , and even things that we should be doing or we wanna be doing, , in that, , through the diversity, equity, and inclusion lens. , and. Within North America. And so that means, , working alongside our business leaders, , , to help them embed d e i in everything they do, , working with our, , people and culture, which is what we call our HR teams, to make sure that our workforce is, , represented fairly, that they're counted fairly, that they're being promoted fairly, that they're being interviewed fairly.

, so working across workforce, , on the creative side, working with our, , teams who [00:01:00] oversee our pipeline programs, our content, our production programs to make sure that our productions are safe and inclusive places, , work, you know very well, Julie, , and, , , and working to make sure that our content is authentic content and that the stories we tell accurately reflect the people we tell them.

For or tell them to. , and, , just working across and making sure our, we have pipeline programs that, , provide access and opportunities for people wanting to, , break into our industry at all levels and in all areas.

Julie Harris Oliver: You are doing the Lord's work.

Karen Horne: Let, just let him shine down on me, please.

Julie Harris Oliver: Can we talk a little bit, let's just go through really quick your career and kind of how you led to this work.

Cause I think you started more of a creative role. , let's talk about how you got here.

Karen Horne: So, , you know, from the way back I studied broadcasting in college. I wanted to be Barbara Walters. , which as I get older, I recognize the [00:02:00] audiences get younger and they're like, and I'm always asking, do you know who Barbara Walters is?

And thankfully people still know who she is, but I wanted to be a broadcast journalist in studied broadcast journalism in school. And then the senior year of college, I got a job working for ABC and ended up at a ABC Sports. , and I am a huge sports fan. Some may call me obnoxious and I don't care because, you know, my teams are, you know, my teams and I'm gonna root for them.

But I'm, I'm a huge overall sports fan. I will watch Log Rolling, which was actually an Olympic or sport on wide world, world of sports at one time. Anyway, so I got a job working for ABC Sports. I worked for someone who, , was a rising star at the company and in the industry. And, , He was eventually promoted and, , moved to Los Angeles to be president of a ABC Entertainment and he moved me with him, , which is where I learned about the scripted part of it.

I, you know, worked on our shows and development and current programming, , and all aspects of the entertainment world. , you know, as a president of a network did, I [00:03:00] did everything. I read everything that come, came across the desk and learned about that. And I took classes about like, if you're gonna give notes, how to give notes, you know, to, you know, whether I hate this cuz it sucks or I hate this and this is why and how to develop a little bit more.

So I did that and then the person I worked for was promoted again and moved back to New York to be head of all of abc and I stayed in Los Angeles and ran a not-for-profit film organization called the Black Filmmaker Foundation. And I think it was really there that kind of cemented my love for.

Finding and nurturing new talent. , and, , I did that. And during that time, , while I was working there, I also sold a series to hbo. It was an adult animated series based on a comic book called Spawn. , it won three Emmys each year. That it, , , , three Emmys.

Julie Harris Oliver: Hold on, hold

on, hold on. You just said that so casually.

While I was doing a full-time job, I also sold a series to hbo o and,

Karen Horne: and I was pregnant and had my first child at the same time as well, so.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well that's [00:04:00] weird. Cause I thought women just kind of fell off the face of the earth when they had babies and didn't produce anything, huh?

Karen Horne: According to

some,

Julie Harris Oliver: oh my God.

Were you just doing that? On the

side, like, how'd you think?

Karen Horne: No, it it, because my husband is a huge comic book fan and found the property and, and we were like, , you know, look, I moved here from New York. And, , he, you know, I remember this cool guy and, and he was like, I wanna go to ComicCon. And I was like, what the heck is ComicCon?

And so, , he kept on saying, let's go, let's go. And I was like, it's in San Diego. I hadn't been to San Diego. And I was like, okay, fine, let's go. And he finds this property. Now he knows comic books and knows that world really well, finds this property and shows it to me. And it is like, you gotta look at this.

And I was like, oh no, it's a Archie's comic, like Richard Rich or like whatever, whatever. Veronica. Like I don't read this stuff. And, , and. I read it and I was like, oh my God, this is an amazing love story. And he was like a love story. This is just a greatest, like action. It's a black lead. The guy, the character's black, and he knew the artist [00:05:00] Todd McFarland from, , his work at Marvel when he drew spider-Man and, and reimagined him.

And, , , so he knew him and, and he actually fostered that relationship. But he was working at ,full circle, Warner Brothers at the time and couldn't do anything with it. So I took it to HBO where I sat, where my offices at, the Black Filmmaker Foundations was. I took it to HBO and actually worked with someone that Andy, my husband, had worked with earlier.

Sold it there and then produced it, developed it and produced it. So I kind of inherited the thing and, and, , yeah, and that's how it came. So it was really a kind of a whole Horne production. , but my name's on this credits, I developed it, worked with writers and doing the work that I do with writers and, and helped develop the look of it, which was very close to the comic book anyway, so, , yeah, that's how that came about.

Julie Harris Oliver: Very cool. ,

Karen Horne: but before the, before it actually premiered on HBO, Disney calls me and asked me if I would be interested in running what is now their ABC writer program [00:06:00] director program, and being a part of the creative team for what's now ABC Studios. It was Touchstone Studios back then. And so I did that job, and that's really kind of where I started with the pipeline world and working in, , finding and, and, and providing pathways for pipeline talent to come into our industry, which, you know, has historically, , been, , closed off to underrepresented talent.

, so I did that, , got pregnant with my second child and realized that I couldn't lead a department at Disney. , then. It's probably different now, but couldn't lead a department then and have two children. And so Nickelodeon had been pursuing me to create writing and talent development efforts there.

So I left Disney and went over to Nickelodeon, , where I created their talent development programs, their writing program, and , and then did that, worked in animation for a year before going to NBC Universal, , where I was for 10 and a half years. And while I was there, the programs that we [00:07:00] created were really considered some of the gold standard in the industry.

We created, , some things that I'm super, super proud of, , directing program, , specifically for women called Female Forward. In addition to our directing program for underrepresented male directors, , which is the Emerging directing program. We had a program for late night writers that changed the landscape in late night television.

, and really was the first place where women, , because it's his late night television is historically run by white guys. And so it was the first place where

Julie Harris Oliver: We all read Nell's book

Karen Horne: yes, exactly. And we had her in fact. And so, , anyway, so we created that late night writer's workshop and it was really groundbreaking in some of the most prolific writers now in that landscape came through that program and I'm super proud of that.

, and so we had, you know, a lot of programs there. , and then I, , left NBC Universal and came over to Warner. Then Warner Media and started there four days before we had to shut everything down and work from home. [00:08:00] So we built our teams remotely. And I think, you know, during the three years that the first three years there, we created probably about 20 different pipeline programs.

, , and, , and now, , with the discovery acquisition of our company, , I moved into a bigger role where I, , not only work alongside the people who run our pipeline programs and help do that, and I just, I just created one in celebration of our 100th anniversary of the company, which I'm super, super proud of.

And I will probably market alongside female forward in late night as one of the things in my career I'm most proud of. And that is we are, we're calling it just the Warner Brothers 100 anniversary short film initiative. And the company came to me and said, what can you do in celebration of our 100th anniversary?

, along the pipeline, you know, you know, with pipeline programs. And so I pitched an idea of reimagining some of, some, some of the most iconic Warner Brothers titles [00:09:00] that we could get the rights to, to do free and clear, , , and reimagining them through the lens of underrepresented filmmakers. And so, at a time where our company was cutting budgets and cutting personnel, I got a substantial budget to do this.

And so we, , partnered with six different film organizations and identified six, , underrepresented filmmakers who are now given money. , we're giving them $200,000 each, , to do a film that's under 20 minutes, just under 20 minutes.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, that's real money.

Karen Horne: That's real money. Yeah. Yeah. But not only are we giving them those money, we're giving them resources.

We, , are partnering with a producer, , who, who makes low budget films for Warner Bro, , Warner Brothers that, , so has like the infrastructure that they can go through, his payroll, his legal, his insurance, like he to set up the LLCs through him. And then they'll have access to the lot and have access to post and a lot [00:10:00] of the things that are expensive.

, but they'll have it at free or reduced fees as well.

Julie Harris Oliver: Incredible.

I wanna back up just a minute, and then I wanna dig into pipelines in general. Mm-hmm. You said at Disney you couldn't be a mother of two children and run a department. Was that because of the conditions of the day? Was that because it was too consuming? Like why?

Karen Horne: All of the above? All of the above. I think, you know, Disney used to have the edict, like, you know, you, if you work at Disney Bootcamp, you can work anywhere, right.

I'm not gonna say exactly what they used to say about it, but, , ,

Julie Harris Oliver: oh, I, I started my career there

too. I know. I know.

Karen Horne: Yeah. You know. , but also, like, there, there was a thing, like if you didn't, you know, if you didn't come to work on, you know, Sunday, Saturday, Sunday, right. Like, so, so, , and I was really a team of one.

It was just me and my assistant. And so we had, , you know, not only did I, you know, , oversee our writing program, In our [00:11:00] directing program. , we also worked with our features team and with writers there, but I also was a part of their current, you know, and development teams. Like, so I always, I also worked with them there, , and that work.

And so it was, it was just, you know, , I, you know, I wanted to be present. I wanted to, I wanted to have some type of life to give my children. At the same time I had, you know, my son was just turning four and a, and a newborn. And so Nickelodeon actually allowed me to do this as a consultant. So, , instead of becoming a full-time employee for them, I did it as technically an a, a consultant.

And, , doing that like gave me the freedom to say, I'm gonna work from home at a time when no one worked from home. So, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Brilliant.

Okay. Now, I know that the pipeline programs are kind of your special sauce and you've done it. You've done it in ways that are different. I remember Sarah Fischer was on this podcast a while ago talking about your program at a ABC.

Mm-hmm. And the difference being that people ended up with a job at the end. Mm-hmm. Which doesn't always happen. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. So can you [00:12:00] talk about like, how you think about pipeline programs and how you design them and, and really what, what we're trying to solve

Karen Horne: so I look at where is there a demand and how I create a.

How do I create a supply for that? So for instance, if I take the late night program as an example, , I was on a panel and it was a huge Vanity Fair article, , that was released, and David , Letterman was on the cover, and it was about the lack of diversity in late night. And, , so the panel moderator said, don't ask her about late night.

She doesn't work in that space. And he was right. I didn't. But then I thought to myself, why don't I, if I can do this and have success in primetime scripted why can't I do it in late night? So I created a supply for where there was a demand and what we did at n NBC at the time, and, and Warner. Brother's Discovery is doing this as well.

We, we paid for that writer that the company, you know, technically it has to come from a shows budget, blah, blah, [00:13:00] blah. But we allowed the overage, , for those shows to have these writers that came through our program be placed on their shows. , because you can talk about people can be programmed to death.

, there are people who have gone from one program to another, to another, to another, and still are trying to break into the industry. Yeah. It's us really putting our money where our mouth is. If we are taking this talent, we're supporting this talent, we're vetting the talent. It's harder oftentimes to get into any of these programs than it is to get into any Ivy League school.

, , yeah, we have on average for a writing program, probably about 3000 applications for like eight slots. Those odds aren't very good. Yeah. , so you have to be super talented to get in. That said, we know that part of the problem of people not not having enough writers or directors on sets is because people go with who they know.

And who they're comfortable with. And most oftentimes those people look like the showrunners, [00:14:00] which are white guys, right? Yeah. So like which often and have been historically white guys. So what we try to do is say, okay, we will support this writer on your show. , and at n nbc, , and I don't think they do this any longer, but at n NBC we supported a writer on a show for three years, , , at the staff writer level.

So in year two, if the show kept that writer and promoted them to the next level, which is story editor, we would pay for the staff writer portion of their salary. And we would do the same if in year three if they got promoted to executive story editor, we'd still, so by that time, that writer is now a part of the family, right.

And that ensures their success. We're doing that with our directing program at Warner Brothers Discovery as well. We'll pay for the episode of the director to direct, , through our directing program, and we'll pay for up to two years for a writer to be on any of our shows as well. , and, and look, the thing is, is that people have often talked about, oh, the diversity hire, or, you know,, I challenge that because the people [00:15:00] who got in those.

Spots did a lot more to get there than those people who are just shepherded it in because they're buffy's, you know, cousin at the club. Right. So, you know, , when we, when we bought our first house, it was in the gate community and, and you know, I will, Say I'm liberal to a fault.

And one of my neighbors who I loved dearly said to me like, why are you so liberal? Because if you live in this neighborhood, you must make as much money as I do. And I go, I probably make more than you do, because I didn't have, I don't come from inherit wealth. I didn't inherit my dad's company like you did.

Right. But I'm this way because I had access to policies and programs that helped me get an education and do the work that I'm doing. , and I'm working harder to make sure that I keep that. So I think that anyone who says that, oh, they're the diversity hire and they're othered, , , they don't recognize the challenges to get to where they are or the talent that they have in order to be there,

Julie Harris Oliver: well, they've had

to work harder and be better and Absolutely.

And [00:16:00] be more persistent. Now. And also that whole scenario is a bit infuriating, right? Because. Why wouldn't people hire them in the first place? Like, have you been able to diagnose, what is that barrier inside the brain of the people hiring that you have to pay for that hire for two, three years in order to get it to stick, even though it's a proven entity?

Karen Horne: I'm gonna ask you a question. I'm gonna ask you a question. Okay. Do you, do you go to the same hairdresser or the same dry cleaner time and time again? I do. Or do you treat, yeah. And you do that because you're comfortable with them. You know them, they, you know, you know that they're gonna do the job and they're whatever.

Right? Yeah. , Or if I, I would challenge you to say that if you tried something new, you would do so upon recommendation from someone you trust, right? Mm-hmm. If someone said to you, Julie, go to this hairdresser. She's really, really good, and you know, like, I've gone to her and I'm, I'm telling you, she, that's, you know, it's, it's not different in the work we do, right?

Like, like, [00:17:00] so, so people are going to go with who they're comfortable with. A writer's room, if we're gonna use writers as an example, is a very sacred, small, intimate place. I often describe the writer's room as an intimate dinner party, and people are invited by the host, the showrunner, , because they want them around their dinner table, right?

Oftentimes they want people who look like them around that dinner table, and that's. That's stupid, in my opinion. . It's just infuriating. Like we often, you know this, we've often talked about like if you're building a toolbox and you already have seven screwdrivers, you don't need an eighth one, you need a hammer.

Yeah. You need something different in order to build the best toolbox that toolbox possible. So, so I know. I know the why people do it. , I don't agree with the why people do it because I think I know the richness of the diversity of our storytelling, which it makes us better [00:18:00] content providers, it makes us better content creators.

, so when we look at that story, whether it's through the lens of a writer or through the lens of a director or even an actor, how they portray a character, you can tell. When it's authentically done, like if you're telling a story, that has any amount of diversity in it, if there's authentic voices there, then that's, you can tell the difference immediately.

And as we look at the business for this, our world is becoming more diverse than not diverse. We know that salsa outsells ketchup. We know that tortillas outsell bread. We know that Latinos open movies larger than any other groups. We know that black people watch television in real time than any other group, and we all wanna see ourselves reflected on screen.

So if we're not addressing that, we're leaving money on the table. So the business of diversity is,

Julie Harris Oliver: I think

McKenzie, I think McKenzie quantified it, and it was something like 10 billion. 10 billion with

a. [00:19:00]

Karen Horne: With a B. So if we look at this, cuz we all know that we're more business than we are show.

Right? If we're looking at the business of it, why wouldn't we do that? Why don't we sit and, you know, we are now having advertisers who are saying, I want to give money to black creators. I want to give money to diverse creators. I want to do that. Like, we need to follow the, footsteps in our a of our advertisers because they know who's buying.

Right. They know who's buying because that's what they sell to. Right. So when they're saying to us, we need more diversity, then we should listen. Yeah. ,

Julie Harris Oliver: How would you answer because you know, of course the backlash to this is agents saying to their writers, well, we can't hire white men right now. So you are outta luck. , I know you're mid-career, but I don't know what to tell you. It's the, you know, it's the diversity hires causing all the problems in the industry.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How do you respond

to that?

Karen Horne: It, it's, I, I call foul or, you know, being Jersey. I call Bs on that [00:20:00] because it's just the agent's not doing their jobs properly. Nobody's not gonna get hired in this. There's so much of this pie. The pie's bigger and bigger every day. , there's so much of the pie going around.

If the person is really, really good, the show is going to hire them. , it's really offensive if you ask me, , , that, , dialogue, that narrative is being, , told because, , because no one's not gonna hire someone if they're excited about them and their work.

, so, , and if we go back to a lot of the people who are on staff because, , , , with, with subsidizing from the companies, , that's not taking money away from their budget, that's additive. So, so for anyone who says that, , it's just, , it's just not true and it's, it is a cop out for agents, , when they say that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Agreed. , if your client is mediocre, tell them.

Karen Horne: Tell them. Yeah. Tell them so they can do better. Tell 'em and help them become better. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Julie Harris Oliver: yeah. , how would you respond to, and I'm sorry, I'm throwing all the, all the [00:21:00] critics, , yeah, let's do it at you. , how, how would you respond to people who say, well, you're just putting up another gate that people have to have to go through to even get into the program?

Karen Horne: Yeah. I, I don't agree with that. The gates, the gate, the built landscape is not fair. It's not equitable. So it's not merit based. What do you say? It's not, it's not merit based. And so no one has to go through these programs to get into our industry. , and I often, I know that most people who get into these programs will eventually get into the industry cuz they're freaking good in order in, in order to get into them.

This is just something that helps us. Escalates it. Like it, it's something that helps, , , advance them faster. This is something these programs generally don't help them become better at their craft. They're already really good at their craft. What they do is give them the exposure. It gives them some of the things that, the business part of it that they may not [00:22:00] know, , but it gives them the access to the industry which has not historically been there for these underrepresented talent.

And so it's not another gate, it is actually another door. It's a doorway. It's not a gate. It's a doorway for entry into the industry. , there are people that I, worked with when I. In my very first role at Disney that I still keep in touch with. You know, most of them are now showrunners, , and trying to get them to hire my, I want my kids to be nepobabies, , but I don't mind saying it.

I'm the first generation in this industry that could practice that. Right. But, it's not a gate. It's, it's a doorway. , those are not gates, they're doorways. They're any opportunity, you know, look, I often say I'm more Malcolm than Martin by any means necessary. And so if people can get into this industry because of a program, then there are so many people who are successfully working in this industry.

And, and, and I will tell you, I've always, you know, kind of measured my [00:23:00] success by when people forget that they've come through a program and they claim them on for themselves. And I say to my teams all the time, like, that's success. Like, don't get upset about that because that's success.

Julie Harris Oliver: When they forget and they say, I discovered this person.

Karen Horne: Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, I gotta tell you, when I was at, , NBC and we would do staffing meetings and the agents would come in with their books and, pitch writers to us. , and I would just go, that's mine. Oh, that one's mine too. That's mine too. And everybody would be like, that's hers. Like, you know, they're, I'm like, don't pitch to me.

I started their careers.

Julie Harris Oliver: I know they're good.

Karen Horne: Yeah, I know. They're good.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's funny

so what do you look for when you're selecting the people to go through the programs?

Karen Horne: Someone who has a real point of view in their storytelling. , and again, that storytelling could be in any format. It could be in film, , it could be in, , directors, writers, or, or even actors.

, it's their point of view. It's how they tell a story. I often say like, there's probably only [00:24:00] about five or six different stories in the world, right? And it's how you tell those stories that make them different. It's how you tell those stories. So, You know, I would say for writers, someone who has a good grasp of dialogue.

, so, you know, in for television particularly, , film, you, you can get away with big set pieces and boom, you know, whatever. So the dialogue is a little different. The needs for that in film than in television, but television, it's very intimate. It's inside your living room. It's like, it's like theater, it's like stage.

And you need to have a good grasp of that, a good, , ability to build a world and to tell a story and to create characters. And those are, those are some of the things that I think that any writer has to do to have success.

Julie Harris Oliver: So how accomplished do they need to be already before getting into a program?

Like do they need to have a whole

portfolio?

Karen Horne: Yeah, they should have a whole, you know, particularly for television, they have to have some type of a portfolio because television is a game of repeating, right? So it's, it's a game of like, not just like, be like, I always [00:25:00] say that a great idea doesn't make a great television show.

A great showrunner makes a great television show. And what makes a great showrunner is someone who can not only do the business, but who can do the story year over year over year episode over episode over episodes. So how do you take that great idea and create a great show from it is what makes you a great television writer.

And, So, yeah, that's, that's, they should have a portfolio because, you know, I, , I will tell you, I've gotten burned one or two times by like just ex, you know, saying, okay, you, you, you gave me this one great script, but I, and I'm, then they get in the program like, who wrote this script for them?

Like, I was like, this is not, this is not what, what I got submitted to me. You know? , , my old boss, , at ABC when he was president of abc, told a joke once in, at our upfront meetings about like us saying that, they got this great script for the pilot script and something like that.

It was, it is a better joke, joke than I can remember. But, , you know, , they were like, oh, that's the pilot. This is the series. Like, so we wanna [00:26:00] make sure that a, a person has a portfolio that we know that they are prolific writers, that they can do this over and over again. And that, that are some of the things that we're really looking for in a candidate.

Julie Harris Oliver: So it's not enough to have the one script that is your dream, that you are gonna take this script to the ends of the earth and not have 10 more in your pocket.

Karen Horne: maybe not 10, but at least two or three more, for sure. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't all like, look, if you have a great television script and then you have.

A bunch of great short stories or you have a great play. , people on TV don't like to read features, so that's too long. , but, but a note. Yeah. But if you even have a great feature or something like that, , you have to have more than one thing in order to be one trick podium, any program. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: ,

and okay, a couple directions I wanna go are you doing a program now that's like mid-career leveling people up

to showrunners?

Karen Horne: Yeah. I mean, one, we are doing a, we've done a showrunners program. Yeah. , talk about that. , yeah, [00:27:00] so that's probably a little beyond mid-career. , , those are for people who are, , well, I'll tell you how it came back.

You know, , we kept hearing over and over again from our creative executives that the problem is, is that there are not enough diverse showrunners because of short orders of series, , , the Pandemic. , , and what they were finding is, is that, you know, writers have really, , gotten promoted and matriculated and have quickly gone from like entry level to senior level writers on staff without knowing how to produce a show or learning any of those other things that it takes to be a showrunner.

Julie Harris Oliver: ,

the business part,

Karen Horne: the business part of it. , so we decided, , the W G A has a fantastic showrunner's program, but we decided why, you know, W G A doesn't own the license to showrunners program. If we, if our executives are saying that, this is one of the things, and, and I, I will tell you the importance of having [00:28:00] more diversity at the very top in a showrunner's position because we know it trickles down.

We know that if there is a person who is a underrepresented diverse in some way. , at the top, they're gonna hire talent. That is, they're gonna hire writers, they're gonna hire actors, they're gonna hire crew who is as well. And so in order to really kind of make a change in this industry, we need to start at the top.

, so we tried to figure out how to do that, and we partnered with our creative executives across the board, through Warner Brothers Television, hbo and HBO Max to say, Who are some of the people who are at like the co eep level or the supervising producer level, right. You know, who are ready to step into the showrunner's, , role that you wanna nominate for this program.

, so it was a nomination only program and it was nominated through our creative executives and we create, , our first cohort was. , I think we've only wanted to do 10, and we, we ended up with maybe 13 because there were so many great candidates, and we, , built a component into this program that the [00:29:00] W G A doesn't have, and that's shadowing, , for any writer who's never produced their own episode on set.

We, , got, , one of our shows. We got our show. There was only two who hadn't, , and one was more comedy driven. So Abbott Elementary stepped up and let him shadow on their show because it's really important to understand how to produce a show if you're gonna be a showrunner. , so we built a shadowing component in it, but we also had like, you know, all, like a lot of the people who have worked for the WGA in helping those programs have overall deals, and they're part of our family at Warner Brothers Television.

So John Wells did his, budgeting bootcamp and, , it just, it was really super successful and I'm looking forward to the next go round of it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, that's really exciting. , Yeah, I've heard John well speak so many times and really gets it.

Karen Horne: Yeah, he's really,

he's fantastic too. He really is. He's just very generous and , , just really a great guy.

Julie Harris Oliver: I would like to hear some of your success stories[00:30:00]

I remember there was a program with House of Dragons. Yeah. And I remember the team getting to make phone calls to people and, you know, the phone call is gonna change their life.

Karen Horne: Yeah.

You know, like, you know, luckily with Zoom, we can record them now. So we have some, like if you go to the, , Warner Brothers Discovery Access website, you'll probably see some of the stuff that we've captured there. , and because now we can do these calls in person, like we can do this where we're actually telling the people in person that, , they have gotten, it does, it changes their lives, , with the House of the Dragon directors that, that, , it's was in the uk so they call it schemes and not programs.

Mm-hmm. , but with that, with that scheme, the directors, we never intended to have them shadow on that show. It was just to give them an opportunity to observe this, you know, , you know, not historic, but this like, huge production from the very epic beginning Epic, epic, you know, from the very beginning, , [00:31:00] to the very end.

And that show, , as big as it was, gave them complete access and was really all in on it. , I think, some of, , the successes that have come through the Warner Brothers television workshop, which is now the Warner Brothers Discovery Writing Access program, has been around probably longer than any other writing program in the industry.

I wanna say probably close to 40 something years. , and, , and, , , so, , , the success stories from that, like, I can't even, I can't even name 'em, like, you know, they're creating shows in the industry. , I know like, you know, I look at. You know, the work at NBC with female forward and their directing program, a lot of the people who came through that directing program now have people shadowing under them.

So like that, like those are just like, you know, like I, I've been doing this a long time, so I have way too many success stories. And I hate to say one or two because then I'll miss like the big one. But, , but, , there, there are so many great success stories and so many people that now owe my children jobs, so,

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:32:00] so that nepobaby dream will come to pass.

Karen Horne: Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: So, , let's talk about kind of the breadth of it. Writers, directors, showrunners, animators, filmmakers.

Karen Horne: Yeah. I, you know, if I can jump in in a little bit, like, , Animators like, you know, , H B O, , was then H b o max. It's gonna just be Max now. But, you know, , when they had an animation department came to us and was like, we kinda wanna do something around, you know, whatever.

And we was like, you build, like if you dream and I'll build it. And so we create an animated shorts program for h HBO O Max. , and the theme was only you. Like, what are stories that only you can tell, like what that are, just your stories. , and they are like trending on H B O Max right now. Like it, and,

Julie Harris Oliver: well, they, they're so good.

Karen Horne: They're so, thank you. I love it. Like they, it's so rewarding, you know, like I, I will tell you. One of the things that continues to [00:33:00] drive me here is, is that it just never gets old for me. Like being able to call a writer and tell them that they're gonna get hired on a show or a director to tell them they have an episode or an actor to say they wanna hire you.

Well, to see these animated shorts is where we've turned programs into programming really is just so amazing to me. It is like what the goal is. Right. You know? , I know that people don't really jump into this industry because it's a job for them. You know, on the creative side. They jump into it because it's a dream for them.

And to be able to help, like, I'm still getting, I've been doing this for so long and I'm still getting goosebumps over it. Like, to be able to help facilitate that is really a feeling that just is, it just continues, continues to, to drive me. It, it, you know, it makes all the other BS that you have to put up with a little bit more palatable.

Julie Harris Oliver: Making people's dreams come true or helping their dreams [00:34:00] come true is incredible. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then what they put out in the world is so important and impactful. It did. You also did an actress program, right? You mentioned that?

Yeah. Yes, yes. What did that look like?

Karen Horne: It, it was. It, it was great. , the team, Grace Moss, who now leads our pipeline programs really kind of created this program.

, and it was where we really took underrepresented talent. I mean, we had trans actors actors with disabilities, you know, , every, you know, range of diversity was there. , and put them through a really intensive bootcamp. Like we put them through a week long. If they weren't local, we'd brought them out to Los Angeles and housed them and, and, you know, had some of the best acting coaches work with them, casting a, you know, casting directors to work with them, to talk to them about the audition process.

And then we put them on tape and we shared it with our casting, , executives, , that are, , that are, you know, are casting executives. Also the casting directors that we work with [00:35:00] across the board. So we shared them as much as we could. , , and it's funny, like some of, like, I see the success through some of those actors.

But there's been some great stories from there as well. So, , so yeah, that's, what is it? It's, that one has proven a little bit harder here at, at Warner Brothers Discovery, which is so big. , but we did something similar when I was at nbc. We did scene showcases and I look at some of the talent that have come through there and I see them every day and I'm super excited.

We also did, , at N B C at a nation nationwide search for standup comedians, and you immediately knew that some of those comedians are great, gonna be great writers, and some of them are great talent, and we found some really good talent there as well.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now when you're looking at developing a new pipeline program, what are all the elements that you put into it?

Cause I know there's a big curriculum that goes with

it. Mm-hmm.

Karen Horne: I'll tell you, look, the, what we used to do is just like say, how do you become better at your craft? Right? So, , oftentimes people do write good scripts, but they kind of write from the stream of [00:36:00] consciousness and they're like, and they get good stuff.

What we try to do is teach 'em kind of the, , mechanics of it. Like, you know, they're mechanics. Structure for sure. You know why? Even if it's , on, , premium, , , premium platform, there still are act breaks in that premium platform. And so, like, why ACT breaks are important, how to button a scene, how to like, you know, how to dissect your joke.

Like how to, you know, that's something I actually learned better, , to be better at giving notes about, or instruction about during our late night program. How to take like a joke and really kind of dissect it and not go to the easy, easy joke, but really go to the smarter and more funny way. And like how to do that with your characters.

How to develop characters. Like, if you do this to this character, you're gonna kill them down the line and blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, like, Those things that some, you know, writer who could theoretically just be thinking about, this is a great idea. I'm gonna write it down as a script, may not help them as they start their career and to give them longevity in this industry.

[00:37:00] So those are some of the things we've always thought about, like how the mechanics of it, if you're a director, how do you work with your talent? If the number one on the call sheet doesn't like the number two on the call sheet they have to do is see how do you make that work? And that's, that happens a lot, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: How do you make that work?

Karen Horne: There's way, you know, you just have to, you just have to navigate it. But, , but, , , but to do that, like, you know, also like, you know, the importance of having, being prepared and being prepared for what happens if someone, you know, gets sick and, and they, or what happens if you lose the light and you didn't, like, you didn't get your shot?

You know, what's the most important part of that? So like, giving them all the tools to really succeed, providing them mentors to help them along the way. Those are some of the things that we try to do in these programs to really arm them to be the most successful. , other than just coming into this line yet another reason why people who come through these programs are really well suited for success [00:38:00] because they have all of this.

You know, that the company has vetted and you know, we've been vetted by the company. Now additionally, what we do with our programs is throw in a little bit of equity and inclusive training. , no one wants to work with a-holes. No one wants to work with a bully. To be a boss doesn't mean you should be bossy.

And I think that's where a lot of people fail. A lot of executives fail in that space. They're not good leaders. Being a good leader is a responsibility. How do you lead effectively? How do you lead and get the most from the people who you are working with? Right? So we teach them. , we don't want anyone who comes from our program cuz if you're underrepresented or diverse, it doesn't mean that you are, , , that you cannot still practice.

An ism, right? Sure. So, so, so we try to make sure that the people who come from our program not only have the mechanics of how to succeed at their [00:39:00] craft, but also are going to be effective leaders and effective contributors will not fall into any microaggressions or, , or inequitable, , things that sometimes people do on sets.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I think that is and has to become more and more important as we need to get that to be. As much of a criteria as all the other skills if you're gonna be in a position of leadership, right? Mm-hmm. And I think that's a, , I don't know if it's a hard sell, but it's a kind of a late sell. Mm-hmm.

Right? It's like people are just starting to think about that and I don't know if they're convinced how important that is. Well, that feels like the next step.

Karen Horne: Yeah. I mean, it is. And a lot of the work that now that I get a chance to work with workforce, , that's what we're trying to instill in our executives as well.

Those policies, if you will, not policies, but, but you know, those qualifications, those qualities of being inclusive, , those inclusive qualities, those, you know, how to be [00:40:00] a better leader, , how to be, , , a leader that recognizes that, , it's your responsibility to, , to encourage and uplift, , those voices around you that normally don't get uplifted, like to champion diversity.

, and so I, I'm hopeful that if we do that on the workforce side, it will show in our content as well,

Julie Harris Oliver: because it's not enough. I mean, in my opinion, it's not enough to be a genius. Cuz guess what? There are a lot of geniuses. Mm-hmm. And. And that's a piece I'm not sure everybody believes yet either, cuz there's still a lot of propping up of asshole geniuses.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not trusting that there's more than one person in the whole wide world that can direct this particular property. Absolutely. Yeah. And how, how do you think we get all the way there? Is it time, is it consistency? Like what do you, what do you think?

Karen Horne: Well, I know how we got there. Like we got there, , because of the built landscape, right?

We got there. , [00:41:00] because that we don't work in an equitable, , , world. We don't live in an equitable world. And, , the systemic racism that has existed, , in our country and in our industry is still. It's still alive. Alive and well. It's alive and well. That's what that we can be sure of. So I think like there is a tendency to, you know, like I've always said that in success I put myself out of work, but I've been doing this for over 20 years and I'm still very much, , tired at the end of the day because of the workload that I have.

So, , so I, I think, , how it happens is because again, if you go back to the same hairdresser analogy, people know that that cisgender white male director who can tend to be an asshole also can provide a really great product at the end. We just have to be better than that. We just have to be the people who says there are other people who can provide something, and in fact, maybe those other people will provide a fresh lens on it [00:42:00] that will even elevate this more than we thought was possible.

, we have to know that diversity doesn't equal risk. That, , that we are better because of it, and that we have to sometimes go outside what is our comfort zone in order to be better at the work we do. And it's, again, it's just better for our business. That's just the, like, that, you know, like, like let's take the fatigue around this out of it and recognize that you're not gonna get tired of, you know, Proctor and Gamble selling you, giving you, tens of millions of dollars for this, right?

Because it's the, that's what our business is. You have to, you have to, you have to embrace the fact that that part of that is also making sure that the content you create is for the audiences we're creating it for. Right? So, so the fatigue around that, until we get to a place where, Where I, you know, I absolutely, you know, have nothing to do then we still gotta keep doing it right [00:43:00] when your work is

done.

When my work is done.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, and it's how much better might the property be if the crew isn't walking on eggshells? Cuz they're scared of the bully at the top. Like that, it seems like such an obvious, you know, people are going to be more relaxed and more creative and actually make a better product at the end of the day.

Mm-hmm. No matter how great you think it is now with the guy being a jackass. Mm-hmm. , it could only be so much better. Yeah. And let's circle back on the fatigue of it all. I know it was very intense in 2020 when George Floyd was murdered and everyone, you know, racial reckoning and we are really gonna talk about this in Serious Hearts and Minds tour and it, it feels like we're having a bit of a pullback and a bit of a backlash and certainly politically massive backlash.

Mm-hmm. , and it's also the time where, If you haven't gotten on board with the Hearts and Minds tour at this point, what are we even doing? Mm-hmm. So what are we going to do? , how do you think we keep, , keep momentum when, , when, [00:44:00] when the white people are tired of talking about it?

Karen Horne: Well, , I will go back to the business of it first.

Like, that's, that's the quick answer. It's good for our business. You're never gonna get tired of doing things that are good for our business. You shouldn't do that. But the real me is, like, if you're tired, imagine how I feel as a black woman. Imagine, like, imagine, right? Like, like I don't get a chance to say, I'm tired of this and just walk away from it.

Right? Right. And it's not just because it's my job, it's because it's my life. You know? Like I don't get a chance to not worry about the fact that oftentimes media portrays my son as a bad guy because he's black and he has locks in his hair and, and, and often wears a hoodie. You know? , they don't know the fact that he, you know, got basically a perfect score in his s a t and went to a great school and all of that kind of stuff.

Like, they don't know. The fact that he, , has probably, has grown up in, in neighborhoods just like theirs. Right. Like, or even better. Right. They, they don't [00:45:00] know that

Julie Harris Oliver: I, I heard a story yesterday and I will ask my daughter if I can repeat this story before I leave it in the podcast, but her boyfriend, ,

who is at Georgetown mm-hmm.

Who's black mm-hmm. Wore blue

corduroys and a blue shirt yesterday, and a girl in his class said, well, you better be careful where you go. You

look like a Crip. Mm.

Karen Horne: And he probably didn't even know what a Crip was.

I know

Julie Harris Oliver: he

grew up in Malibu.

Let's be clear.

Karen Horne: He exactly grew up in Malibu.

Julie Harris Oliver: He,

he was looking super cute in his blue outfit.

walking around Georgetown. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, yeah.

Karen Horne: Yeah, yeah. And well, so the importance of this why that we don't have the luxury of having fatigue over this is because we also have the responsibility of creating content.

Whether that content is for the big screen, the small screen, or the gaming. Like let's like, and even in games, like we work with our games division a lot. Games are the first thing that most kids [00:46:00] have in terms of media, their eyes on. The way we portray people on that if, if your games, I don't even, I don't know, like in those Car Chase or whatever games that they are, if all the bad guys are kinda dark skinned and blah, blah, blah, you know, that's, that's, that's telling that, that those are images that are imprinting the minds of our society.

And so as long as, I can't be tired by it, then you don't have the luxury of being tired of it either. So let's just say,

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean,

that's the definition of privilege right there. If you could walk away from the conversation and not be bothered about it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. That's a little privilege. Mean, you're curious what

that was.

Karen Horne: Yeah. I mean, I, I'll tell you right now, like, you know, I, I don't care if my son bruises this or not. Like, you know, like he has not renewed his car. He has get a smog check on his car and, you know, he's like dragging his feet and hasn't done it in, his registration is going to expire like Monday.

And, and also he doesn't know where his license is and I'm like, Okay, so [00:47:00] you're gonna get pulled. I'm gonna take your keys from you. Nope, nope. Like you won't not be able to drive because like you are a black man driving the car in a white neighborhood. Right. And you're, you're gonna have expired registration and no license.

Julie Harris Oliver: You can't take that risk.

Karen Horne: You can't like it. No, those, so you are, so the reason why we can't have fatigue about this is because I will have sleepless nights worrying about that. Right? Yeah. Because society says he's a bad guy.

Julie Harris Oliver: Right. And, and, and that's real. And it's persistent. Yeah.

Karen Horne: So that's why, I mean, like the prince of the, the stories we tell and who gets to tell those stories cannot be.

We could not, you know, magnify it more. It's so important. And it's not just, by the way, on scripted. I would say I, you know, I, I think we do a good job of it here. But I will say that when my kids were younger, we would listen to the local newscasts. And [00:48:00] if they talked about a crime happening, and they described the, , we all, they always tended to describe the perpetrator by their diversity.

And if they didn't, we were like, oh, they must be white. Because they didn't say, they never say a white man, never say a white man. Right? So what's a given? It's a, so, so you know that again, you are calling out the fact that it was a brown person, a black person, a yell, whatever you're calling, but you don't, if it's a white person.

And what that does, the imprint that does on people listening is saying that every crime that happens is by a person of color, and that affects our society. That's why we can't have fatigue over this, because it is, it's dangerous. It's dangerous.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, it's life and death and it's real. Mm-hmm.

Karen Horne: Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, so that keeps you going. Mm-hmm. What, what gives you hope?

Karen Horne: Oh, you know, I often say that I [00:49:00] was born with rose colored glasses on, and that oftentimes people have to say to me, bitch, pull those glasses off. You need prescription. Like, , , so, , I'll say that happens to be just my kind of how I go.

I, I just look, I think that numbers don't lie, and I, and I recognize that. I'm a person that is very much the story person. I like to, you know, I like pictures, I like whatever. Like if you gimme numbers, I'm like, huh, what are you talking about? Numbers. But I know the numbers don't lie. Right? So I know, , the importance of showing people, because oftentimes a showrunner will say, or a, , a colleague will say, oh, I have, you know, this brown person next to me.

We're doing really good in the Latina space. Like, you know, but that's the only brown person that's in the whole department, right? So unless you show them, this is where you are, and this is the history of, of, , promotions in your department. This is the history of whatever, like this is [00:50:00] your retention levels.

Like you have to, we have to show them. So the numbers. Give me hope. Now, like for a person who hates numbers, they actually give me hope because I'm, I'm hopeful that once it's shown these numbers, people will recognize that they're not doing as good as they think they were. Right? And that once you show people the numbers and the audiences that are thirsty, that are hungry for more authentic stories that represent the way they look, represents things in their lifestyle, and that's good business, that gives me hope that we'll have more.

I mean, we are an industry that chases the heat, right? So like, please, blue Beatle do well That because it will make sure that other shows, other movies get, like, the success of Blue Beatle will drive. Blue Beetle television shows will drive blue beetle sequels. It will, you know, drive so, so much. [00:51:00] Right. And so I hope that people come out and support these things, but I also, that gives me hope because I think that the numbers just don't lie.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and it's, it's, you can't argue with them. And how people feel about something is often so very different. And, you know, it dispels the myths. Like, oh, a Black Panther was an anomaly. Oh, a league of her own was an anomaly. You know? But actually when you, I, I think the most recent Hollywood diversity report that came out, the films directed by women and people of color made

more money,

Karen Horne: made more money, and often were made for less money.

Exactly. After we were made for less and they made more. And also like if you look at a show like Issa Rae's, insecure Unapologetically Black, right? Yeah. Un And you know what? The white audiences were as large, if not larger than those black, the black audiences watching that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Delicious love.

Karen Horne: Delicious, right?

The story is universal, right? The, so this is what I [00:52:00] say to a lot of writers, like when they wanna write, like, you know, I often say you can't write at to an indigenous writer. Like, you can write about your specific experience as long as you tell it in a universal way, right? Like, so do so, so the greatest example of that, I will use the indigenous community.

I had a writer once who was indigenous and they really just, you know, wrote a, you know, a fried bread story on the, on the, on the reservation. And it, and it did, the script didn't really resonate with people. I had another indigenous writer who wrote a story about a guy. Who was a football player, , and his sister gets raped on, in the casino on one's reservations. So he comes home and he has to deal with that and like it get, I got to see the life on the reservation and their culture, but it was told through a story that everybody else could really, , embrace or understand or, , or, , that was [00:53:00] universal.

Mm-hmm. , and I think that is what we have to recognize. Like all of our stories are universal. It's the specificity of it. It is the diversity of those stories that changes them. I remember I said earlier that there's only like five or so stories in the world. It's the diversity of those stories that make them more exciting and interesting.

Julie Harris Oliver: Karen Horne, thank you so much,

Karen Horne: Julie. Thank you so much for having me. I love talking to you. Have me back like I had a great time. You're the best.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're the best.

Karen Horne: You're the best.

Julie Harris Oliver: Goodbye.