EP 236 Sasheen Artis

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] Hi friends, you're listening to the other 50 percent of Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. This is the show where we talk to women and historically marginalized people and share their success and strategy in the entertainment industry. We also talk to people who are doing the work of creating more opportunity and making things better in the business.

And sometimes we talk to people who are doing both. Today is one of those days. Today I got to speak with two time Emmy winning producer, Sasheen Artis, who is the Founder/ CEO of Plenty of Pie, a talent incubator and production accelerator offering leadership development, practical producer skill training, and mentorship to emerging and mid career creatives of color.

Sasheen has worked with such newsmakers as President Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and director Jonathan Demme. Her latest film, Birthing Justice, addressing black maternal health outcomes, screened for 200 countries at the United Nations and as part of a continuing education course for the American Medical [00:01:00] Association. It currently airs on PBS and you should go watch it.

She got her start at Paramount Home Entertainment, working on blockbuster marketing campaigns for Titanic. Mission Impossible, Braveheart, and TV series like Star Trek, The Next Generation, and Nickelodeon's Rugrats. She's a member of the Television Academy, the Producers Guild, and Sigma Gamma Rho Sorority, Inc.

Sasheen is originally from Harlem, New York, and earned her B. A. in Psychology from Stanford University. We talked about all the things she's working on and shared our unpopular opinions about the color purple. You can find us online at TheOther50Percent. com, all spelled out in letters, as well as on all the podcast places.

And you can find links to everything I'm up to on the link tree that is in the show notes and at JulieHarrisOliver. com. Here, have a listen. Sasheen Artis, welcome back to The Other 50 Percent.

Sasheen Artis: Thank you so much for having me, Julie. It's been amazing to see you blossom and grow, and I'm so glad to be back.[00:02:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: It's so nice to have you. I remember we talked in 2018, episode 132, if you're following along at home, you want to go look it up in here. Sasheen's amazing life story, which You won't believe. So go listen to that. We won't dig into it all again. We'll make people go back and listen to 132. It's probably on the website.

I don't know if it's on Apple Podcasts anymore, but it'll be on the website and I'll link to it in the show notes. So I know you've been up to so many things, so I definitely want to catch up. It's been, is that six years since we talked? 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23,

Sasheen Artis: 24. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's been, it's, you know, it's everything pre COVID.

It's sort of like a whole century ago.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's like a whole lifetime. Everything has changed and nothing has changed. And what is time? So what have you been up to?

Sasheen Artis: Oh my goodness. So let's see in 2018. Last we spoke, I don't know if I had just come back from Jordan or if I was heading to Jordan. I think you were headed there.

So it was an amazing trip. [00:03:00] I had been invited by Her Royal Highness Princess Ramali to, and the Royal Film Commission to do a workshop there with their creatives. And it was brilliant. So they, you know, we, I created this. Curriculum. And it was eight spectacular Jordanian, uh, Syrian, Palestinian, just a whole host of beautiful, beautiful stories and creatives that wanted to understand the Hollywood system, understand pitching and all the things.

And so I had an opportunity. I had another PGA member with me producers Guild of America. Her name was Rachel Watanabe Batten. She's an Emmy award winning producer. She came with me. She's based in New York. And so we, you know, she flew out of New York. I flew out of LA. We met there and it was just a spectacular, like 10 days.

It was just brilliant. Incredible. May 18 was 2018. And then 2019, I actually worked on a show [00:04:00] called lost LA. and that was a docuseries for, for KCET. And that was really cool. It's all things, Los Angeles, these hidden gems, you know, go while going through different archives all across the, the SoCal area on that show.

I produced six episodes. With them and won two Emmys and it was crazy because I won, you know, during COVID. So I literally, you know, was sitting on the edge of my bed in some sweats, drinking some tea. You didn't get to go to the party? No parties, no paparazzi, nothing. It was just like, oh, okay. So I did get the Emmy though, which was great.

Amazing. Yeah, so that was fun. And then in 2022. I had the opportunity to work on a documentary, a feature length doc called Birthing Justice. And that, it's on Black maternal health outcomes and the solutions that are working across the country. We went to several different locations, [00:05:00] Augusta, Georgia, D. C.,

the Boothill of Missouri, as well as St. Louis, as well as Los Angeles. And we, you know, traveled around and found these amazing women, women who had complications with their pregnancy, but overcame them, with, you know, the, the care and, and, medical treatment that they needed. And understanding that, you know, when you provide those services, to women and whether it, you know, it didn't matter whether they were poor or wealthy, upper middle class, lower middle class did not matter.

They, they had these opportunities to get care. And that care saved their lives, saved the lives of their babies. And it's currently, Birthing Justice is currently airing on PBS. It's still there on the pbs. org platform. it's, it's really aspirational. It's very hopeful. It's not depressing at all. So please, you know, people can go check it out and be uplifted.[00:06:00]

one thing that was great about the documentary. Is that, the American Medical Association, picked it up as a continuing education course. So now medical professionals, if they need to get a unit, cause a lot of times you have to, you know, even though you have, you have your, your, your MD and you're working, you still need to get a continuing education credits.

They can, take that course, watch the film, and then they can incorporate those practices into their own medical practice. Because I was going to

Julie Harris Oliver: say, if Serena Williams can't get competent maternity care

Sasheen Artis: Exactly. Exactly. Serena, Beyonce, one of our, executive producers, Alison Felix, she's an Olympian, you know, she has like 11 medals. Probably the healthiest woman in the world. And she, you know, had eclampsia and it was one of those things where it was life or death. And, you know, she had to, deliver her, her daughter [00:07:00] prematurely. and she goes into this all, you know, in the, in the documentary, you know, how scary it was. And she didn't have.

you know, any understanding of what was going on or that she would be even prone to it. So, you know, a lot of times doctors have to take a little bit more care with their, black female patients and make sure that, you know, they're monitoring their, their high blood pressure and all those things. So, It's a, it's a great, documentary to learn from and to be uplifted by.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wonderful. It's so important. I'm so glad that you have done that. Can we talk a little bit about the diversity initiative at the producers guild of America power of diversity master workshop?

Sasheen Artis: Yes. Yes. So, back in 2017, well, I should start a little bit earlier. So I joined the guild in 2013, uh, became a mentor of the program in [00:08:00] 2014 and, you know, really, you know, start under, you know, understanding what they were trying to do.

you know, reading through the, the, mentees projects and then, joined their selection committee in 2015. Yeah. And in 2017, I was invited to chair the project, the program. And it gave me an opportunity to see, you know, Oh, there's no infrastructure. Oh, they're just kind of winging it. It's like, Oh my God, it was insane.

So I had to, you know, develop a manual and really get a rubric established in terms of how, how the selection process was implemented. and then really made sure that our mentors were trained to be very intentional. So not just give advice, but, you know, give advice and also making sure that they had opened up their Rolodexes and, you know, invited them to [00:09:00] opportunities, different networking, events.

Making sure that there was actual engagement with the participants so that when they culminated and, you know, they practiced their pitches and we had them pitching to, you know, folks like Mary Parent of Legendary Entertainment and Princess Penny, with Issa Rae's, company and her show. And, you know, getting these opportunities that they, they may not have ever had, but they were real opportunities.

So, you know, folks actually reading their scripts, reading their, your treatments and proposals, you know, connecting them like Mary parent, one of our participants, he was a, he was graduating from AFI. And his senior thesis, you know, she connected with him. She connected him to Sundance, like the collab.

And then from Sundance, he was connected to Spike Lee and Spike Lee boarded his project, his senior thesis project as an EP. [00:10:00] And it's like mind blowing. It's insane. But you know, it was opportunities like that, that the, producers guild, diversity workshop. I really, made sure that participants got real, connection.

cause a lot of times, you know, people will bounce from workshop to workshop, program to program, and they're just bouncing. They're not actually getting, you know, projects made. They're not getting, you know, hired. They're not getting agents. but this was really, I was really intentional about making sure that they were going to get something out of it.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you went ahead and produced that program.

Sasheen Artis: I did. I did. I am a producer. That is what I do. Yes. And that

Julie Harris Oliver: feels like the missing piece of so many programs. I was just speaking with the women of, GenXX Project. And Yeah. Yeah. You can shadow your entire life as a director, but it's getting the actual job, getting the actual opportunity to take all of your preparation and all of your education and all of [00:11:00] your practice and, and make it actually

Sasheen Artis: happen.

Exactly. I mean, I think, you know, if you look at the, the landscape of programs out there, there are so many writer's programs, director's programs, animation, editor below the line, all that. But very few for producers. I mean, if you go, you know, you could go and get a degree if you want to go to USC or UCLA, or if you want to, you know, be, if you're already a member of the Writers Guild, you could do their showrunners workshop, but there's very few opportunities to really get that pathway to leadership.

And pathway to, you know, understanding all the things that it takes in order to be a producer, you know, the budget, the schedule, you know, risk management, conflict resolution, you know, negotiations, all the things that we need to know as producers and implement every day on every project. Yeah, it's so important.

Julie Harris Oliver: And. Also like when, when writers get in that producer position, because you've been a wonderful writer, [00:12:00] but you may not have really had any training in those particular skills that you so need in order to make this work.

Sasheen Artis: Right. I mean, producing is managing, you know, a team and it could be a team of a hundred and some odd people, you know, producing is like business.

It's, you know, entrepreneurial, it's, you know, finding financing, it's, you know, connecting with all the people that are going to be involved in this process and being able. to help them see your vision and help them implement that vision. So it is, it is a skill set that is not writing. It's not directing.

It really is very unique and it's a very powerful space. And that's why you'll find that there are a lot of, of people of color that aren't in those spaces. They don't even know how to, or know that they exist, except for the fact that they're the persons that, you know, that's how they get hired. They send their resume to the line producer, to their, to the EP.

Julie Harris Oliver: looking back, I was looking back at the episode we did together, 132, [00:13:00] and I'd written in the notes that we, that we had nailed the business case for diversity, which seems so ridiculous to me now and that such archaic language. And why is anyone still proving a business case? And I read something recently on LinkedIn and I wish I had written down the woman who wrote this comment because it has stuck with me and I want to give her credit.

Bye. Bye. Bye. But she asked, it was on a long train of some DEI, something someone had put up. When was the last time a group of white male executives were asked to do a business plan as to why their leadership team should stay homogenous?

Sasheen Artis: And never, never in the history of anything. Yes. In the history of ever, never

Julie Harris Oliver: has that ever happened.

And because we're all just expected to just think that that's, that's, that's the way the Lord, that's

Sasheen Artis: the way. Mm hmm. Mm

Julie Harris Oliver: hmm. Which is absurd. Okay, so knowing where we are now and kind of where we've come in this journey, [00:14:00] what do you think the actual next steps are? Because enough making the business case.

We all know the business case. Mm hmm. So what do you think are our next steps to actually implement some

Sasheen Artis: real change? I think the next steps really Is to start getting into those spaces of leadership because there's no way you're going to be able to convince someone, you know, that they're good with where they are, they're, they're okay with, yeah, they're, they're, they're okay with leaving billions of dollars on the table and wondering, Oh, what do we do?

They're okay with that. And until someone says, okay, this is what we do. And have, and have the power and the authority to say that and do it and implement that. That's when things change. So I feel it's really important for, you know, historically marginalized communities, you know, historically excluded communities, and that's all, you know, all the intersectionality, you know.

Everyone needs to have a place at the [00:15:00] table and they need to have the power to do to do the thing and to make the change. So I think it's really now about, you know, moving those spaces into leadership, moving those creatives into leadership positions and giving them the soft skills training and, you know, all of the tools because, you know, a ceo isn't a ceo just by title a ceo.

You know, they get executive coaching, they learn how to, you know, dress, the learn how to eat, they get all of those things. And no one talks about that. You know, it's very hidden, but you know, there, there are people out there that are selling services to, to CEOs for half a million dollars. It's like, are you serious?

Executive presence.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yes. That's the thing that's taught. Yeah.

Sasheen Artis: And so why is it. They're taught that, but they're not taught how to actually make a creative decision. [00:16:00] You know, how to, you know, how to weigh looking at and looking at a story, looking at a script and whatnot and thinking about the audience that it should, it should be made for and where that audience reside.

You know, when you have all of those things, when you have the executive presence and you have the creative moxie and you know exactly where your project should be, that is gold. That is gold in the bank. And I think it's time for, you know, folks like myself and, and for all the folks that I know who are working in this space to really start thinking about leadership opportunities and training folks to get into spaces of leadership.

Amen.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think this is where

Sasheen Artis: plenty of pie comes in. Exactly. And so that, that's what ended up, you know, I coming out of the producers guilds, diversity workshop, they, they totally, you know, after my term ended in 2020, [00:17:00] we had pivoted during COVID we made it online and it was amazing because then you could, you know, get people from all over to, to, you know, engage.

I realized that it was, you had the opportunity even online to create community. So the virtual space wasn't, a hindrance. It was actually an help. And so I looked at, well, what, what is needed? And obviously for me, it's all about leadership, all about producing and getting people in these, you know, in these spaces to lead.

And so I, I launched a company called plenty of pie. And it's a talent incubator and a production accelerator, to train, provide that soft skills training, that leadership development, as well as those hard producing skills, you know, the budgeting, the scheduling, you know, all, you know, all the things you need to know as a producer.

And a, you know, my production accelerator is really focused on, you know, producing diverse projects, producing, projects that are, you know, whether they're [00:18:00] film, TV, or documentary. But are specifically their core audience is, a diverse audience and diversity is a very, wide ranging, space. So it's not just, it's not just race or ethnicity, it's LGBTQ, it's religion, it's, military.

It's gender, and it's disability and accessibility. And so understanding that there are rich, bountiful stories out there, that, you know, people, they've probably read them. They've possibly even optioned them, but they've never produced them, you know? And it's like, well, if you, if you liked it enough to spend the money on it to option, or you liked it enough to give a person a job on someone else's show, well, maybe we should just like, if we like it, let's, let's make that.

You know, there are literally piles of scripts out there that have never been made that people actually like, you know, that, that, that can be made that can, that do have an audience. And [00:19:00] so, I, I started plenty of pie with the intention of finding and curating those scripts, finding those projects. And, you know, connecting them to distribution, connecting them to funding opportunities and getting them made.

Julie Harris Oliver: So this feels like the most gate kept, if that's how you say the word, gate kept area, is the connecting to the, to get in the room, to pitch, to get to the financing, to get to the power I'm saying in quotation marks, that can make something actually happen because there's a lot of. I think there are a lot of programs that help people prepare and help refine their idea and refine their pitch and get ready to do the thing.

I think where your program, at least one of the ways it's super unique, is to actually make that connection. So how do you

Sasheen Artis: do that? Pick up the phone. A lot of times Because you know some people. I know, and even when I don't know them, I'm like, I make the [00:20:00] case. And I call them cold sometimes if I have to.

Or if I don't, if I don't know them, can I get To someone that I know who knows them because you know, that's what we do as producers. I don't know everyone in this town. Everyone doesn't know me, but you know, that whole six degrees of separation is real. You know, there are, I, I do have six degrees of separation to Kevin Bacon.

It's crazy. It's probably less than six. It really is. And that's a whole story unto it unto itself. But understanding that. We are all connected in this industry, and if I don't know someone, I know someone else does, but it really becomes a question of just picking up the phone and saying, Hey, I have this project or, Hey, this is what I'm trying to do.

Are you interested? Because a lot of times, you know, people don't know they're interested until you ask them and they're like, Hey, well, let's, let's think about it. Let's talk about it. Let's get, you know, get to know each other because it's all about relationships. And, [00:21:00] you know, people want to succeed, they want success, and if you're bringing them an opportunity that smells of success, they want it, they want to know about it, and they want to see how they can get involved, so that's what we, that's what I try to do.

As you're talking

Julie Harris Oliver: about that, you sound so fearless, in a, in a town that's run by fear.

Sasheen Artis: You know, there, there, there's fear. There's healthy fear, you know, and then there's fear that stops you. And I, I understand that, you know, I don't know everything. I don't know everybody. I don't have the money. I don't have the things, but I know that I have a vision and as a producer.

What we do is we take a vision and make it real. That's what we do. That's what i've been doing for the past 20 some odd years like what 29 years. I I take a vision So if you say sasheen, I want to do a [00:22:00] movie about butterflies Okay We could do a movie about butterflies there. There's no fear in that. And because I know, okay, I know what a butterfly is, what type of movie do we wanna make?

Do we wanna make an animation? Do we wanna make a documentary? Do we wanna make some experimental Kafka aspect? It, it's all about knowing what it is, strategizing it out, planning it out, and then doing it. And so for me, fear, it's as long as it doesn't stop me, as long as it doesn't paralyze me, it's healthy.

It's a healthy fear because you don't know until it happens. You know, you don't know until someone picks up the phone. You don't know until they say yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: So back to, I don't know, was that book in the seventies? Feel the fear and do it anyway.

Sasheen Artis: Oh, there you go.

Julie Harris Oliver: Was that Louise Haye, back in the day, I think the phrase still stands.

Sasheen Artis: Yeah. And just to do it, it's the Nike, you know, just do it.

Julie Harris Oliver: So who is this program for [00:23:00] and what can they expect? What's the process?

Sasheen Artis: So it is for emerging creative. So, and I say emerging, if you have, if you've gone to school, you know, if you've graduated from whatever, and you've been in, you know, in somebody's workforce for a couple of years and you really, really said, you know what, I've always wanted to direct, or I've always wanted to write, you know, and you really are looking at, the entertainment industry as a space that's emerging creative to me, that's someone who, who has that passion.

Then I look at also mid career. So maybe you're in this industry. Maybe you've been in it for 10 years and you've been an accountant or you've been, you know, in post and you want to make a pivot and you want to pivot to producing that's fine too, because for me, it's about. Understanding, you know, basic concepts because I'm not a film school.

I'm not teaching lenses. I'm not teaching, you know, you know, the latest cameras. That's not what it is. [00:24:00] I really am focusing on folks that know the basics. Now let's get to the nitty. Let's get to that. You know, let's, let's, you know, break down the script and understand how to budget. let's break it down and you know, how to schedule and build in enough time so that you can make a delivery date, you know, understanding that producing, you know, when I was talking about having a vision and bring, bring it to fruition, you can plan, you know, the best of plans, you know, the best laid plans.

It they will always you know be impacted by all the different troubles of you know, whether it's you know, Whether whether it's people whether it's resources And as a producer you have to overcome Each of those troubles each of those obstacles every hour every day until you get the thing made and you know helping people understand What that feels like and it's, it's, it's great when it, when it all works, you know, it great when you deliver [00:25:00] on time, but even, you know, if you have troubles along the way, if you have those obstacles, how do you overcome them to get to the thing, you know, so

Julie Harris Oliver: overcome it.

Every day, like you might have three terrible days

Sasheen Artis: along. Yes, yes. And so people, I think, so for my, my participants, I'm looking at folks who are willing to take on that challenge because it takes a special kind of person to be willing to overcome challenge and obstacles every day to get to a thing. and it also takes, the plan and the strategy and a logistical person.

because you know, everyone wants at the end, they want the lights, they want the paparazzi and all that and producing, we, we just go on to the next thing, you know, we, we get the, you know, we, we get the opportunity to experience it on the big screen or on the small screen and okay, now we've moved on.

You know, so it really requires a person who has that willingness and that stamina. who, you [00:26:00] know, wants to lead and wants to learn and it's, and again, it's open. It's not, you know, there's no age, minimum is, you know, we'd like for you to be an adult. So 21, but other than that, you know, it's, it's basically, you know, open.

And is

Julie Harris Oliver: it rolling enrollment or do you have cohorts?

Sasheen Artis: So yes, I do have a cohort. I'm going to launch my inaugural cohort, this year. I'm opening, my applications this spring. so people can, go on my website and, just sign in as a, a subscriber. And I, you know, send out a newsletter every couple of months, just giving people updates, what I'm doing, this is what's going on.

This is how you can get engaged me, you know, here and there. And then, I will announce my open, hopefully in the next couple of months, so that way they, people have an opportunity to get ready. Cause you know, we need a script. and [00:27:00] it doesn't have to be, you know, perfect, but it has to be finished.

It has to be a finished script. it cannot be an already produced project. it can be for a documentary, it can be a treatment, a documentary proposal. and I also have a free documentary, proposal template that if people want, they can request from me and I'll send it to them, because. Those are very helpful when you are structuring a documentary because from that proposal, it's like 10 pages.

It really, is very detailed and it helps, the, the creative understand exactly what they're going to shoot, where they're going to shoot it, and, and gives them a roadmap and it helps the reader understand exactly what they're trying to accomplish. So we have proposals available, you know, templates available for them.

and, I do have, currently five projects already in my accelerator. we [00:28:00] have, an FBI project. That's amazing. a woman who is a retired, FBI agent of 34 years of career. she's African American woman, one of the highest ranking, female agents while she was working. And then I have a movie that's a biopic based upon the life [00:29:00] of Hal Walker, who is a laser engineer, African American laser engineer, who's featured in the Smithsonian Institute and the Apollo 11 exhibit.

amazing man. he's, you know, still alive, 90 years old. now he lives in South Africa, with his wife, Dr. Betty Walker, and who is also amazing in her own right. So we're doing a, a biopic on them. And also a documentary series called Common Voices, with the award winning journalist, Bonnie Boswell, who is a journalist, through PBS.

she has a series currently called Bonnie Boswell Reports, and we're doing, a different, type of exploration, for across the country, you know, looking at diverse communities and, you know, what, what we're doing to make America better. Make America great again.

Julie Harris Oliver: I don't know how carefully you're choosing those words.

[00:30:00] It's so, Helpful. I think as you were talking about the documentary kind of pitch template, because it's one thing to say, Oh, I have this great idea for an unscripted something or a documentary. It's a, it's a very different, I found out recently, it's a very different thing to say, okay, what are six episodes going to look like?

What are you actually going to cover? What's the through line? What are you building towards? What's the, you know, there has to be a reason for someone to watch it other than what an interesting thing. So it's an incredible, skill, I think, to help people do. Yeah.

Sasheen Artis: I mean, for us, you know, I've produced about 20 or so docs, and doc series and, you know, you get into a rhythm with them.

and when you're reading something, When I'm reading something that someone says, Oh, it's a great idea. I should be able to see it. I should be able to visualize it along with them. So giving someone a template to help them, along that, [00:31:00] is going to help them with anyone, whether it's me as a producer or anybody else.

being able to read it and visualize it and, and feel that same emotion and greatness on the page is, is key. So giving them that template, I think it's, you know, it's free, it's helpful. and you know, also a lot of times people don't know where to start. So if you say, okay, you know, once upon a time, just start it once upon a time, you know, and go from there.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, and then also I remaining flexible enough to, you know, what if it goes in a, in a really different direction, like the John Batiste documentary that just came out, that went a completely different way than how they played at the beginning of it. It's incredible. Yes,

Sasheen Artis: and you have to be willing as a producer and a director to, to allow your story to breathe and be, you know, take on the, to take on new, purposes.

So, being flexible, but when you're in the pitch mode, when you're, you know, before anything's shot. Being able [00:32:00] to, you know, give someone a clear, delineation as to what they're, they should expect is, you know, that's how you sell it. You know, now if, you know, if, you know, once you film it and you're like, Oh, we have a totally different story.

That's fine. That's why you got to start. You already have the money, but yes,

Julie Harris Oliver: exactly. Don't make the person who's receiving your pitch make it

Sasheen Artis: up, right, right. It's not going to be the same story. It'll be their story.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. We talked about how people can find you. How did they apply? We did all of this. Okay.

Yes. Plenty of pie. net and we will link to it in the show notes. Now, can we talk for a minute? We started talking about this before we turn on the microphone. So I definitely want to get in this conversation. Oh, It, it feels like with the streaming wars in chaos and the strikes, like the industry is trying to reinvent its business model, right?

And how is that playing out from where you're sitting? What does that look like to you? I

Sasheen Artis: think, [00:33:00] well, right now I feel the, the industry's in this inertia, you know, the nothing's moving, nothing's happening. And you, you hear about, you know, Oh, someone sold this big package at EFM or someone sold something at Sundance.

And that's great. but the reality is, is that's the one thing that's the two things that may be the 10 things, but that is not going to sustain an industry. So we have to actually get back into, you know, what is this industry supposed to be about? And if it's the business of telling stories, then people have to understand that sometimes that business.

Is not going to be, shareholder connected because the shareholder has a different, you know, imperative than the creative. So we have to rub. So we have to get into a, an alignment where the shareholder understands. [00:34:00] That the business of storytelling is not necessarily the same thing as a consumer product.

It's not the same thing as selling, you know, a Pepsi or a pair of shoes. So I think people have to understand, when they are, you know, if they're launching a production company or they're launching a distribution firm or launching anything that has investors. Be very clear about what your business is about because the business of storytelling, and if we look at the history of the industry, this has always been about selling a product.

So I think our business model really has to focus back on the creative, re really reconnect to, what it was originally meant for, which was brands, selling a brand and, you know, move away from that investor relationship that is, you know, that Trump's everything, you know, that, oh, we have to make money and we have to give money, money, money for our shareholders.

So we're going to lay off, you know, 10, 000 people. No, because now [00:37:00] your business is going to suffer from that. You know, so let's rethink what are our, what we're supposed to be doing as leaders, as producers, as executives in this industry, what this industry was originally created for and go back to that.

Julie Harris Oliver: I worry that the shareholders are in too deep.

Sasheen Artis: Possibly. And also they don't, you know, they're not really connected to the creative. They don't see the value of storytelling. They're just looking to make a buck. And if you're, if you're not connected to the thing that you're making, you know, if you're an engineer and you've built the world's tallest skyscraper, every time you walk past that skyscraper, you know, I have done that.

I've contributed to that. I've made that happen, but the shareholders have absolutely no connectivity to the movies that we make, [00:38:00] the TV series that we produce. They have no, they, they don't understand how valuable they are in that process. And I think we have to really. Engage them on a personal level, engage them on a relationship level.

Understand that, you know, it's not, you know, tech is great tech, you know, tech is tools, but it's really about humans. And it's really about person and person to person connection. Understanding that, you know, if you have an investor, you're, you're not only taking their money, it's a trust. It's a trust that you're building and you want to give them something that they can be proud of.

It's not just, oh, that it made them a lot of money. You want them to be proud of the thing. And I think we've, we've taken out the emotionality of that relationship and we've made it very transactional. And I think that's, that's what has made us fall in this space because this, this is not a, a transactional business.

It is a relationship. It is about human [00:39:00] condition. And when you take that out of the equation, you don't have anything. This

Julie Harris Oliver: does feel like the problem. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it, cause the business itself is profitable as a business. Oh, absolutely. Thousands of thousands of really good jobs. And, but then the added layer of, then you got to pay these people back billions of dollars.

To the detriment of everyone who's making this stuff, it seems insanity to me.

Sasheen Artis: And it is, I mean, there was an article a couple of weeks ago that they, they had a, the industry itself as a whole, movies, you know, TV, documentary, all the things has a trillion dollar valuation. Trillion. T. R. Trillion. I mean, it's like, so we know there's, there's, there's money to be made here.

We know that there's great opportunity here, but I think the relationship of what we're doing to the people who are funding it has become distorted. and I don't think they understand how [00:40:00] important, they are in the process and how we are relating to them. I just think our relationship is broken because it, it, it doesn't serve us when we lose the, the, the thing.

It doesn't serve us when we lose the industry. We doesn't serve us when we, you know, fail, you know, to, to deliver, because we're trying to do, we're just trying to make money. Well, no, we want, we want to actually make a story. We want to make a story that audiences enjoy. And we can't do that if we're just trying to make money, right?

It's

Julie Harris Oliver: the money plus all the things. It's the shaping culture. It's the moving hearts, all the things. so let's talk about, we, we started talking about kind of the IP cycle of book to movie, to Broadway, musical, to movie, musical,

Sasheen Artis: every

Julie Harris Oliver: single thing. and we were talking about the color purple, like that model.

I it's been so fun, like mean girls, wicked rent. [00:41:00] But let's talk about the color purple. It's fresh for me because I watched it last night with my daughter, the musical version. And I said to her, what you said to me, which is I started by reading the book.

Sasheen Artis: Yeah, I started by reading the book. I read the book when I was a teenager and it was a.

A story that made a tremendous impact on me. but to the point where it's like, I don't want to see that song and danced around. I don't want to see, you know, her, her struggles and her, the, the horrors that she lived immortalized in that way. And so that's just my personal take. but I, I also look at it is when they made that movie, you know, what, 30 years ago with Whoopi Goldberg, with Oprah Winfrey, that became a, it's a seminal version.

It was, that was it. It's like, you know, the Godfather, you, you know, you have folks out there that are, you know, reciting the lines from that [00:42:00] movie, you know, they have memes from that movie that has lasted. So even if you never saw that movie, you know, the connection. And to, to remake it, I thought it was unnecessary.

Cause you know, if you're not going to remake the Godfather. Then why would you remake the color purple? You know, it, it had that level of quality, that level of, you know, zeitgeist presence in our culture. It was perfect. And so I look at when, when folks want to do a remake, it's like, well. What, why are you trying to do a remake?

Are there no other stories that touch on, you know, domestic violence or woman personhood, or, you know, are there no other stories out there? Is it that you want to do a story like that, or you just want to see if you could make more money off of the same story and I think we, we fail ourselves tremendously when we.

Don't [00:43:00] want to just try something new. because yeah, I mean, you had, you had a great cast. You had, you know, a great opportunity to, to make something spectacular and a little, you know, millions of people have enjoyed it, but would they have enjoyed something new? You know, would you have connected to an entirely new group of folks that weren't trying to compare it to something else, you know?

Oh, well, I saw that. Well, I saw this on Broadway. Well, I, yeah, I did. You don't want that. You want something fresh. You want something new. You don't want to give people, you know, the, the opportunity to compare it to something seminal, you know, cause it's never going to live up to it. That's the whole point of being seminal.

Well,

Julie Harris Oliver: so I was watching this with my daughter last night, who's 23. And I was like, Oh yeah, the color purple. And I was like, I read the book. I watched the movie. I saw the Broadway show. And now, now here's the musical. And don't get me wrong. I love a musical. I'm, [00:44:00] I'm here for the musical. But when we started watching and, and she was asking like, this is a terrible story.

Like how many hours of black trauma are we going to watch right now? And I was watching it going, Oh yeah. Like what? What and I remember the takeaway from the story being oh, I love that it moved me so deeply Oh, it's so beautiful. But then watching it. It's so traumatic and so Horrible, like it really is the worst story in the whole world and then that's it the final scene Where she has survived, she has triumphed.

The sister came back, you know, we're sobbing, we're sobbing. And it's so beautiful. And I think you, you remember that last feeling as you walk away. And then you think, Oh, I love the color purple.

Sasheen Artis: Cause you remember that, that last feeling, right? Right. But it's a horrific story. I was traumatized when I read the book.

I read it as a teen. It's so bad. And I was like, Oh, my God. [00:45:00] I never want to experience this life. I never, never. But you

Julie Harris Oliver: forget because the feeling that's left with you is beautiful story of triumph. And you forget how horrific

Sasheen Artis: it is. Right. And I think, you know, there are so many stories like that that have yet to be told.

And not, you know, again, they had an opportunity to do it. They took it. They, you know, cast it beautifully. everyone did a great job. Yeah, but how many other stories are out there that have this have similar themes, but you don't have to remake anything. You don't have to go, you don't have to go back to, you know, the 80s.

You don't have to go back, you know, to history. You could do something present day. I just feel. That we're missing out on opportunity because we're too afraid to look at the, you know, the pile of scripts that are already on our desks that have already been optioned that are already, we're already there that have, [00:46:00] you know, that become that writer's calling card that has gotten them the jobs.

Well, let's use that script that they're holding saying, hey, this is a great script and people say, hey, yeah, that's a great script Go work on the show. No, let's go make this script and let's go make this one, you know And I think we're we're missing out on those opportunities for fear for for the fear of oh, what if it doesn't well?

Julie Harris Oliver: Because of the shareholders, because of the profit, because of the, everything has to be such a raging success because of the business.

Sasheen Artis: Right. But, and, and a business model that in any other company and any other industry would be insane. It's like, Oh. We have to spend 250 million dollars on one thing in order for it to make a billion thing, you know, billion dollars.

Yeah. It's like, who, who, that, that does, that, the math isn't mathing, that doesn't even make sense. It's like, why would you put all of your eggs in one basket? And then pray, cross your [00:47:00] fingers, and you know, market however you market to hopefully make a billion dollars as opposed to making ten, twenty five million dollar things.

Remember

Julie Harris Oliver: the twenty million dollar movies that were so beautiful and successful? Remember the early nineties? I mean, maybe people don't remember the early nineties,

Sasheen Artis: but I, well, I do. And you have these personal relationship driven, you know, great pictures that, you know, they, they won the awards, they made the money, but it, the, the business model.

I don't know if it's laziness, because if you have to make one thing at 250 million, that, that, that reduces the amount of time you have to spend. You know, yes, you're spending more money, but it's only one thing. But if you make 10 things at 25, then you have 10, you know, 10 things you gotta make. But it's like, that, that to me, it's insane.

And no other company, no other industry would just put, it's like Apple saying, Oh, we're only going to make the phone. It's like, really? [00:48:00] No, Apple's never going to make just a phone. They're going to make a whole bunch of things. And they're going to hope that, you know, you as a consumer finds one thing that you like, and you may find other things that you like, what you mean?

Julie Harris Oliver: We should diversify the product.

Sasheen Artis: Hello, diversify the product, diversify the stories, diversify the, the, the people who are making it, diversify your workforce.

Julie Harris Oliver: Hey, well, I'm going to put you in charge cause you're making the most sense.

Sasheen Artis: Well, you know, I'm sure I'm not the only person out there, I just, I feel like, at this point, no one wants to be that person, no one wants to say what they're thinking, because I can't be the only person, you know, it's just that.

You know, there's a lot of folks out there that fear losing their jobs, fear, you know, not getting the same fear, not getting promoted. And fear is fear kills things. Fear is a killer. You know, it's a killer.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, it's a whole industry of creatives. And I'd say the [00:49:00] percentage of them who are saying, well, I really got to make this come through with the shareholders.

It's, it's really

Sasheen Artis: small. They're not saying that at all, but what they are saying is we have to make it for the audience. We're, we're trying to make this story, you know, we want to tell this amazing story. We want to show this, you know, amazing experience. Or we want, you know, want people to have a great laugh or, you know, we want people to be scared and, you know, be frightened and have that fun experience.

I mean, I think people are making it for people. And I, and I think we as producers, we, as you know, executives have to reconnect the shareholders so that they understand too, they are audience. They are, we're making this for them, their audience. So,

Julie Harris Oliver: how do you keep going in the face, cause this work is hard, and you're doing it in the face of a consistently disappointing

Sasheen Artis: machine.

Yes, I, [00:50:00] yeah, I think, you know, I, I keep going, I keep going, and I keep going. I, actually I had a, I had the pleasure of watching two movies this past holiday, holiday, Nyad. well, it was on, it was on Netflix and then a million miles away on Amazon prime. Those two movies were like quintessential lessons in tenacity.

It's like. You keep going, you don't give up. Even when people tell you, no, you keep going and you just keep going and you keep going and you keep trying and you keep trying and it is, it's tiring, but you know, in your heart of hearts that the thing is going to work, you know, that you can do the thing, you know, that whatever, whatever the obstacle is, you're trying to overcome.

It is overcomable. You know, you just have to come at it in different ways until you get to that other side. So I, I, I have this. [00:51:00] You know, when one of the lines in the a million miles miles away was tenacity is a superpower. And if you can embrace that and you can hold on to that and you can just keep going and say, oh, okay, this isn't going to work.

Okay, let's try this. Let's make this happen. And, oh, that's not going to work. Okay, well then let's try this. Cause you know, it has, this has to happen. We know. The vision has to come to fruition. So I, you know, I just keep, I stay in prayer. I'm like, okay, Lord, I can go work at Costco any day now. Let me know, but until such time, I'm just going to keep going and I'm going to keep doing it.

Julie Harris Oliver: We hope so much. Well, I'll speak for myself. I hope so much that it's like that cartoon where the person is digging a hole underground. And the thing they're seeking is just right there and they don't know they're right here. And so

Sasheen Artis: they give up. Cause once,

Julie Harris Oliver: once the barrier breaks, it feels like [00:52:00] then it'll be super accelerated.

Sasheen Artis: And I think so. And I, and I, and I have to hold on to that as a belief and know that again, I'm not the only person out there. This isn't, you know. What I'm doing, you know, people do there, there are hundreds of thousands of producers all across the world and all these different countries making the thing.

And we know that when you give producers the opportunity to make the thing and you give them a deadline, it's going to happen, they're going to deliver. And so, yeah, we make the thing. And so I, I believe that. If you, you know, give me that opportunity. If we say, okay, Sasha, go ahead, make, you know, make your five projects in your accelerator.

You know, we're going to allow you to, train 200 producers. It's going to happen, you know, and not only are those 200 producers are going to get trained, but then they're going to go out and make 20 projects. And so you have exponential, you know, things happening and you have that shift [00:53:00] and it's a slow, you know, slow progress until it's not until it, you know, it's full speed ahead.

And, you know, I just keep going and knowing that it is going to happen.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, you've inspired me. Tell me what advice you have for people coming up.

Sasheen Artis: I think the biggest thing is don't be afraid. don't be a yes person just because you're afraid. be honest with people, be reliable. I think, you know, this industry, a lot, you know, a lot of people say, you know, when you're, when you're trying to get in, in whatever form or fashion, whether you're, you know, creative or not, you know.

You have to show up, you know, you have to be there. You have to actually, you know, if someone says, okay, I'm gonna give you a shot, take the shot. You know, don't, don't be like, oh, don't be [00:54:00] afraid to take that shot. I think a lot of folks. They get, you know, they get someone on the end of the phone and then they don't know what to say, you know, and it's like, you know, practice, strategize, practice and pick up the phone and say what you want to say.

Ask for the thing you want to ask for, you know, ask for that opportunity. Or, you know, if you, if you see an opportunity that is made for you, take that opportunity. don't be afraid because. There, there's no barrier in this industry that can't be overcome. And that, that's, that's a hard thing to, to, to say, you know, knowing all the barriers that are here, but they ha they can be overcome and you just have to figure out that way to overcome it and ask people, don't be afraid to ask for help.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is there anything I didn't ask you about that I should have asked you about?

Sasheen Artis: Oh my, [00:55:00] no, I think we covered everything. For me, it's, you know, Plenty of Pie. Oh, I have, a webinar series currently that I'm offering folks. I do on plentyofpi. net. It's called Demystify Entertainment. we're doing a, TV series development workshop as well as a fundraising for media projects workshop.

They are fee based. and you also receive a 15 minute online consultation with me. I answer questions. I give advice, whatever you need, you know, to, to help you navigate this industry.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wonderful. Okay. People can find you at p plenty of pie.net any place else. Yes. You want them.

Sasheen Artis: and you know, I'm on, I'm on LinkedIn.

I'm, I'm always wanting to connect to folks on LinkedIn and I'm on Instagram. just my name, nothing, nothing interesting. Just Sasheen Artis on Instagram. LinkedIn, and Plenty of Pie.net Okay. [00:56:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: It is always such a pleasure talking with you next time before six years go by.

Sasheen Artis: Thank you. Yes.

Yes. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Julie. I appreciate it.

Julie Harris Oliver: You've been listening to the other 50 percent a herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. Thank you to Sasheen Artis for sharing her story. And special thanks to Jay Rose, Dani Rosner, and Allison McQuaid for the music. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and rate and leave a review to help other people find it.

You can reach me at julieharrisoliver at gmail. com. Thanks for listening. See you next time.