Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] You're listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. We are continuing our series of talking with experts who work in various aspects of diversity, equity, and inclusion across industries and in entertainment. Specifically today, I sat down with Dr. Meghan Burke. We talked about how white people can approach this work without getting hung up on feelings of shame and guilt and centering ourselves because none of that is particularly helpful.

Dr. Meghan Burke is a sociologist, an author of three books about contemporary racism and whiteness. Most recently, the book Colorblind Racism. She was an award-winning teacher scholar, diversity advocate and advisor. During her 15 years working as a professor at a small liberal arts college where for 10 years, she co-developed and directed an innovative program designed to equip white students with an understanding of equity, inclusion and intersectionality so that they could effectively work as partners in D E I efforts.

She [00:01:00] also traveled around the country offering keynote talks and workshops for communities looking to deepen their commitments to racial and social justice. Meghan left higher education in 2021 for a career in industry utilizing her social science research skills and her subject matter expertise to drive positive change for companies that serve the common good.

We talked about how it is to show up as a white person doing the work of dismantling racist systems. We talked about what is colorblind to actually mean and is that a perspective we should actually be using? A theme you'll hear repeatedly is it's not if and weather racism is showing up, but when and how.

That will all make sense. Soon here have a. Dr. Meghan Burke, welcome to the other 50%.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Me too.

Julie Harris Oliver: So first, tell me in your own words, kind of what it is that you do and what you focus on.

Dr. Meghan Burke: So, I am a scholar who studied the dynamics of contemporary racism, and I [00:02:00] paid special attention to the ways that, uh, how we learn to talk and think about race, how that.

Outcomes in concrete, social and political settings. So I studied kind of politically charged spaces on the left and the right, and then I began writing about how actually similar those dynamics can be, which tends to surprise a lot of people. Um, so I did that for about 15 years. Yeah. Yeah. So we can talk all about that.

I'm, I'm sure. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, uh, you know, like, like many people in recent years I have, I've left higher ed. Um, and in that time I worked in the d e I space for one of the world's biggest media companies for a while. Learned a lot, met fantastic people. Um, but now I'm very happily working, um, with the kind of qualitative researcher, half of my skillset in another sector of private industry.

So that's a little bit about my scholarly background and, and how I, how I come to have this conversation with you here today.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Now I also wanna know, um, you're a white lady. How did you come to this work? From that background?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah, yeah. I mean that's, [00:03:00] that's probably the more interesting story, right?

Um, that

Julie Harris Oliver: the people want to know. Exactly,

Dr. Meghan Burke: exactly. Well, I'll tell you that it, that it took a long time. In fact, um, it, it took too long. It really wasn't until graduate. And that's despite the fact that I was deeply socially, uh, invested in social justice, politically invested in social justice during college, I knew intellectually that racism was pervasive, but I, I didn't really see it.

I didn't really know it. I couldn't talk about it, and I wasn't really living with that awareness until I took a high quality course on, on race and racism. And honestly, when I did, I got really angry, which, which sounds like a white piece of thing to do, right? Um, I, I don't think that I was angry though at being confronted with the realities of my white privilege.

Um, but rather I was angry that I'd had like very decent, you know, public K-12 education. Public undergraduate education and still no one had really taught me right. Um, to understand our [00:04:00] history, to understand our present in this way. So, you know, I had actually come to graduate school in sociology to study something far more theoretical, which I promise we won't get into.

Um, but it's, you know, when I really learned to see the evidence yum for Racism's legacy and the ways that it's lived in the present moment, um, it really became my core passion and I really redialed all of my teaching and research plans to explore it. And of course, you can't do that with also, uh, exploring the other ways that it insects, uh, intersects with other forms of oppression more deeply.

Um, so the rest is sort of history.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Did you, like I grew up with free to be You and me. I, I always go back to that is, that was my, that was, that was my expectation of how the world was, right. Instead of, oh, that was, that was someone expressing how the world ought to be. Right?

Dr. Meghan Burke: I think that distinction between ideals and reality is where we get really, really tangled up when it comes to contemporary racism.

Um, and that's, that's the exact dynamic that I really stepped into [00:05:00] explore that I got so curious about as a scholar and as a teacher and loved engaging with, with students and other audiences around, um, did, you know, some consulting work, did some workshops, some keynotes around all of that. And I, and I think really kind of playing in that space and, and really helping us wade into that and navigate it.

You know, that's, that's where the hard stuff is, but that's where the good stuff is. So I

Julie Harris Oliver: think a lot of us, especially, um, our age, I think. We might be 10 years apart, but we're still thoroughly grownups. Right. So I, that's at least we, we present as grownups. Um, at least growing up in the seventies and the eighties mm-hmm.

Pervasively in the culture. There was, you know, united Colors of Benetton. There was a period where you had one person of every race and every commercial, like presenting kind of this world. And there was a lot of talk about, I don't see color or colorblind, like all of that. Turns out you wrote a whole book about that called colorblind racism.

Could you, can you talk about that? Like what, what does that actually mean? And then, and then what does it mean?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, great question. [00:06:00] And I th I think those cultural touchstones into it are, are a terrific route in, because just like we were talking about, I think it really reflects that distinction between those ideals.

Right. And, and the. So I tend to define colorblind racism as kind of the ways of, of talking and thinking about race that do a couple things. One is that they tend to affirm our belief in individualism, right? So it's all individual merit and you know, there's no barriers and, and everything's fine. Uh, all you have to do is work hard, have the right values, um, all of that kind of stuff.

But then it also tends to lean on, what I always emphasize are these often imagined cultural differe. Right. So if it's not the individualism stuff, it's these imagined cultural differences. And I say imagined cultural differences, not because there's no such thing as culture. Not because, you know, there aren't, uh, there aren't cultural differences between us.

But what I mean by that is that we give culture too much explanatory power, right? We think that culture really is the thing that makes some groups successful. Uh, [00:07:00] and that of course can also have its downsides, right? So as white folks, we either congratulate ourselves for being raised right, and having the right values without seeing any of the unfair advantages that we've been given, uh, in the economic, political and, and just about every system, you know, it can be really toxic for, for Asian Americans, right?

Who, uh, where we tend to have the model minority myth, right? That says that, uh, you know, It's the right values and, and all of that, you know, without really understanding the part, particular histories that have shaped that for some Asian American groups and very much not for, for many others, or we often use it to punish, right?

Uh, we sort of imagine that there are these cultural deficiencies among other groups and really tend to say, well, that that's why, right? That folks just didn't, don't, you know, it's the culture sort of getting in the way, right? So it is all of those kinds of things. And of course, you know, as I've said it all it does.

So without recognizing the many remaining barriers that still exist, God. And we've, I've

Julie Harris Oliver: heard people say, oh, we hired a black person once, but you [00:08:00] know, their culture, it was just really hard.

Dr. Meghan Burke: That's what you're talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Or well, you know, and I think we do that, especially when we look at kind of group patterns, right?

So we, I think that, that, the tricky thing is like we're, we can look around the world and most of us know that there's some kind of deep inequalities out there that, that there's, uh, deep inequities, that we have strongly disparate outcomes. You know, if you look at the, the wealth gap, right? Which continues to grow.

If you look at differences in educational attainment, if you look at, uh, medicine Yeah. Medicine, you know, who's able to, uh, earn promotions and, and rise, you know, in their careers, uh, get access to education. I mean, all of the things, right? And so it's not as though we don't. See those disparities, but colorblindness comes in as an ideological lens to help us explain them by explaining away race as a central, uh, and racism in particular, as a central way to explain and [00:09:00] understand how and why that happens.

Julie Harris Oliver: So when you hear someone talk about like, well, you're in America, everyone has equal opportunity, if you're not taking advantage of that, that that's your own failing. Right? Right. But obviously that's a not true and it's harmful. But maybe you can talk about how, how the colorblindness lens. Really causes harm.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. Well, you know, I, I'll, I'll draw on as others have done, um, you know, some of the work of, uh, sociologist Eduardo Oone Silva. So he wasn't the first to come up with this, but the way that he has popularized kind of these four major ways that we tend to hear and learn how to interpret and talk about the world around us come into play there.

So I think, you know, one of the ones that you're talking about there is, is what he calls abstract liberalism. Doesn't matter, not a term you need to know, but it really is kind of starting with our already existing belief in a fair system, right? And then we say, well, since we think that the system is fair, in part because.

It should be fair and we would like for it to be fair. And we've often been taught [00:10:00] that it's fair and it feels fair to white people. Well, exactly. We don't, we don't encounter the barriers. We're not tripping over the hurdles. Right. Um, we're not, we're not bumping into the walls. Um, you know, we look around and, and think, well, you know, my life seems like, you know, the result of my own hard work and, and my own values and my own choices.

That must be the way that it is for everyone, right? So we either kind of blame or credit individuals with their work or their talent on that basis, right? And that really ends up being one of the kind of the core tenants there.

Julie Harris Oliver: You know, Dr. Banks was on this podcast a couple weeks ago, and I know one of the things that she often says is, or she uses as an example.

You know, if you look at, uh, the wage gap and we know that women are paid less than men across the board, and if you decided to, we're gonna solve that problem, but we're never gonna look at gender. Right. But somehow you think it's gonna magically solve itself, right? That, that feels like, that feels like kind of the same thing.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, so I think sometimes another way to think about that is like, we sort of get the colorblindness as flawed. Maybe we know that this [00:11:00] stuff isn't, like, what would be the alternative? How might we think about it instead? And I, and I think the way that I might suggest is, is what we might call racial literacy, right?

Which is, it sounds really simple and it is, and yet we make it harder than it, than it needs to be because we often refuse to have these conversations socially and politically. And racial literacy would be the ability to, to analyze, to acknowledge, and to act around the ways that race does matter and our lives and opportunities, right?

So really being willing and able to, to accept and understand how race still matters and how racism, both its legacy from the past and its practices in the present, continue to shape outcomes.

Julie Harris Oliver: So if we're starting to. And it feels like 2020 really feels like the moment when the white people finally started to engage in a real way.

And I think there's so much fear around that for white people engaging in this and that. There's been a lot of, well,

did you

hear that? Yes. Clanking, yes. I'm ha I'm having solar panels put on my roof and so it's making a lot of noise [00:12:00] that we're trying to work around, but how, talk more about how we should be thinking.

Differently and kind of what I think white people have some fears around talking about this. So can you speak to that?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah, let, let's take the first one and, and then, you know, I really wanna hone in on the second one of course, as well, you know, um, so I think one of the ways that colorblindness really ends up perpetuating this system of inequality and racism is that it doesn't allow us to see racism as a system of advantage and disadvantage.

Right. Something beyond just, uh, so another core way that I think we're taught to think about racism is just the outcome of like, individual biases and prejudices, which we all have, but we don't even wanna admit that. And especially white folks are, are terrified of admitting that. Right. And, and we'll go there.

So what we get instead is, is just kind of like this toxic mix, right, of prejudice, which is real plus these unequal, unfair unearned levels of power that have been allocated to us based on our social identities. And central among them is race, right? [00:13:00] Colorblindness won't let us really see any of that. And so when we're not equipped to make this systems level analysis, again, we look at these disparate outcomes, be it household wealth, educational and professional attainment, the health of individuals in our communities, deadly interactions with the police and so much more, right?

Um, we see at most segregation, but we attribute that to cultural differences in individual choices. Or we tend to think that, you know, the racists are those bad people out there, right? They're different than all of us. We all, you know, I'm a good person. You're a good person. Everyone in my orbit is a good person, right?

And we either sort of blame those racists. Who, who, who we imagine to be so far away from

Julie Harris Oliver: us and who we imagine will just die out anytime now. Except we see in Virginia, what a year ago, right? That young people,

Dr. Meghan Burke: right. Being Nazis. Right. And, and you know, so many generations have said, have just promised right.

That, that once their grandparents are, are out of the, out of the picture, you know, uh, much love to all the grandparents out there, [00:14:00] right. But, but you know, we've always kind of held that, that cultural trope and it unfortunately doesn't end up being the case. Right. And again, that's why we have to go back to the systems level analysis rather than just imagining that we just have to wait somehow for bias to either die out or fade out or, or any of those things.

And what that lets us do is not hold ourselves and one another accountable, right? Or to work collectively to create more fair, equitable and inclusive systems and environments, right? So, so colorblindness really doesn't let us see or name the very real problems in our social economic political.

Ideological systems. Right. Really this is an ideological practice, and so of course, we're not equipped to deal with it. Right. Um, I sometimes say like, we, we'd never go to a medical doctor, right. And be okay with like, well, we don't really need to do an exam. Um, we don't need any sophisticated tools to test or diagnose any kind of like illness or disease.

You know, we, you know, we don't really wanna try any meaningful interventions, right. Uh, we're, we're just, we're just gonna hope that you get [00:15:00] better, uh, and, and ignore it and it'll go away. Right. But we do that very thing all the time with racism, which, which as we know can be just as deadly.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. And as we're preparing for this, I wa I was also thinking about.

The way, you know, the way we talk about it at large in society, you know when, when politicians are trying to sound very well-meaning, they'll talk about black populations always in reference to the inner city, right? And the ghetto. And you know, the assumption is that all black people are on welfare and poor, you know, and there's just the lumping of races.

Everyone coming over the border is Mexican and illegal. Like here, let me just say all the horrible things out loud, and then people can just snip 'em and send 'em around the world. Get me in a lot of trouble. But, This is what we do. Right,

Dr. Meghan Burke: right. Right. Yeah. I mean, and that, that's really, that, that kind of, um, second category, right?

The, those, when I say that we tend to give culture too much explanatory power, right? We think that it's really just something about right, the way that folks are learning to live in those environments or the, the behaviors or the attitudes or any of those things that, that [00:16:00] come from those environments instead of seeing the very real, structural, political, economic barriers.

For some, and boosters for others, right? If we're talking about whiteness and other forms of privilege that have created those very condition, right? So it's, it's our laws, it's our policies, it's the legacy of political choices that we've made in the past. It's the way that we are actively designing and supporting an economic system that, that still trades on, uh, some of those privileges, you know, even from, from the Jim Crow era, right?

So another thing, you know, and the part of what I think makes this fascinating and important to discuss is, you know, folks will also say, You know, we, we had, we had the whole Freedom Movement in the 1960s, right? Didn't we have all these successes and, and civil rights laws? We have the Fair Housing Act now, right?

We, uh, you know, we've, we've worked on and continue to work on voting rights and, and all these sorts of things. Like, didn't we clean all this up? And the answer is, we've begun to, but there are still both the legacies, right? As we look at intergenerational, uh, wealth and opportunity and all of these [00:17:00] other things that, that still continue to shape, uh, the opportunity structures and the realities that we live with today.

I think a good example

Julie Harris Oliver: of that, that I've, I've recently seen going around the internet as we're talking about, you know, I'm steeped in college admissions right now. All my kids are that age, so we're going through a lot of that. And so I, I see a lot of that stuff right now and there's a lot of talk. You know, getting rid of affirmative action or that's not necessary or that's not fair and no talk at all about okay then let's get rid of legacy and your father buys a wing and so you get a spot like all of that legacy privilege to get into college that people don't see as affirmative action, but they only wanna take it away for the people who've been disadvantaged forever and not to the people who've been advantaged.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. And that example is, is is just so stark because if you really look at the set of policies that we have come to call affirmative action policies, really what they are is an effort to guarantee equal opportunity. Right? Right. So what we're actually saying is that we don't want equal opportunity, right?

We don't want, uh, there to be some basic level of. [00:18:00] Um, in the system unless it shows up in particular ways. And so that also gets into some of the ways that the, so much of the discourse around race and racism gets both kind of coded and loaded with unfair assumptions, clear inaccuracies, and then all of the racial politics and strife that we bring to this with that lack of analysis of how these structures are really built and how these inequities persist.

I mean, we will absolutely go backward if we do eradicate, uh, affirmative action policies. And in fact, that's already begun to happen as more and more schools and and workplaces have, have been nervous about this. I mean, quotas have been illegal, you know, since the 1970s. Um, and most folks don't know that.

Most folks think, well, affirmative action means they've just got some spots saved for X, Y, and Z and now your kids don't get a fair chance. Right? We're really what affirmative action policies have done is try to remove some of those barriers to make sure that folks do have a fair chance and we wanna go even further backward.

It's, it's, it's all just such a mess.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Cause it, [00:19:00] and it's more of those, and I, I talk about myths all the time. That things that people say that just aren't true, you know, and they're not nuanced and they're not backed up with anything. And one of those is the assumption that to have affirmative action or to to do things in that manner is means you're bringing people who are unqualified.

Right? Right. Like they equal each other.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Right. Where, you know, what school, what workplace, what institution of any kind would ever want that, right? They, they care. You know, I, you know, I used to talk to students about this all the time cuz it was always very top of mind for them, whether it came to scholarship funding and missions, you know, but, but schools are very, very sensitive to the reputations and their rankings.

You know, workforces want to hire the best talent and they, you know, they're gonna elbow their way, uh, into, you know, around any barriers that prevent them from doing so. It's just, it's not really in anyone's interest. And yet again, because we have such ongoing bias, right? Such pervasive racism, we still make such unfair assumptions about one another, right?

That that's really what that tends to reveal.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So then if we're [00:20:00] starting to look at systems and how systemic racism is operating as opposed to there are terrible racist people in the world, how do we start shifting that lens and how do you start seeing the, the systems of it all?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah, I mean, and I think on a certain level it really is about kind of moving from that individual to that systems level analysis.

But I think for, for, for white folks like us in particular, right? That can be really tricky because we also kind of have to be willing to make a little bit of a mind shift, right? Um, so I think that, that we have to get out of our own way, um, as white folks, but we also have to be willing to let the institutions in which we've had disproportionate levels of power for far too long, be willing to adapt and change.

So let's start here and keep it really basic. You know, for many white people, and I, I'd be curious if you see this in your world too, Julie, many folks would say that being labeled racist is among their worst fears. Oh God. Yeah. It's terrible that just like the, the, the crippling anxiety around somehow being found out or discovered or labeled or named [00:21:00] racist raises incredible anxieties and fears for many, many white folks.

And when we sit that next to right, often the biggest fear for many people of color, Are things like not surviving an interaction with the police, or not getting access to adequate medical care, or having to continually scrape your way up a greased ladder while maintaining both sanity and grace while people are kicking you and blaming you and shaming you.

Right? I mean, it really becomes so absurd when we look at those things right next to each other. And so I know it's far easier said than done, but my challenge here is always to invite and encourage us all to try to get away from the anxiety producing question of if or whether racism is somehow at play, either in our hearts and minds, or in our workplaces and communities, in our institutions, right?

Or instead to have the maturity and the willingness to ask how and in what ways, right? So moving [00:22:00] from, am I racist to how and in what ways am I perpetuating racism? Is this institution perpetuating racism? Gosh, I hope we're not. Instead saying how and in what ways are we still not getting it right? How and in what ways are we perpetuating racial inequality and racial inequities and a lack of inclusion in this space?

It sounds scarier because the second way of framing it, the how in what ways makes the assumption that it's going on, right? And the anxiety question of if and whether, oh my gosh, I hope not. All that wants to do is absolve us and it's just not gonna be the case. Right? If we're willing to say how and in what ways is racial inequality, racial inequities, lack of inclusive practices playing out in the spaces that I'm in, then we can get to a space where we can actually say, oh, there's this thing that's going on here, and then we have something to work in.

So, you know, then we can step in and do a careful kind of study and analysis. Right. We can use the expertise of [00:23:00] social scientists. We can importantly trust the leadership and insights of marginalized folks who are the ones with the real expertise of living with those barriers and often experiencing things that folks with power and privilege maybe can't see often, don't see, really don't wanna see.

And then I also think that that brings a humil. And a willingness to roll up our sleeves and do the slow hard work of making change to our policies, practices, and ways of being with one another. It's like that old saying, the the only way through it really is through it. Right? Yeah. But colorblind wants to say there's no need.

It's already done. Don't worry. You're one of the good ones. Don't worry. We, we didn't diagnose the racism in you. Right. Moving on. Right. And it's just, it's just never gonna be the case.

Julie Harris Oliver: No. Cause I think the answer to if or whether is of course there is right now. Let, let's figure out what it is and look at it.

Right. Like of of course it is. I don't, and, and the fact that we still have to come up with evidence for it. And there couple different ways that, that I like to, um, [00:24:00] just kind of help put this in. Sometimes people can only see things from their particular mm-hmm. Perspective. Mm-hmm. So lemme just offer, it's like, That thing you said of, you know, we're white people are worried about being called racist, people of color, basically worried about dying at our hands.

Right. Right. Um, it's like women's worst fear is being killed by a man and a man's worst, worst fears that a woman will laugh at him. Right. I mean, it's, it's the same kind of like such disproportionate fear. Like, what are we talking about? Right. And the other thing is, you know, when, like, if you don't feel particularly well and you wanna take it easy for a day, you wanna take a sick day, or when you were a kid, you wanna stay home from school.

And, and if someone in your family like didn't really believe that, you didn't feel that well and so then you had to feel even worse. Mm-hmm. And really dig into the cold or the headache or the whatever it was to really kind of prove it. I think we have been denying racism so long and force people to keep talking about it and keep explaining it and keep providing the evidence.

When I, if we could just get to a point of, of, of course, of [00:25:00] course it's there. Now let's talk about what are we gonna do about it. What are some of the ways we go about it? I know data is one way. I know listening to people's lived experience is another way. Can you kind of talk about how, how we break that down?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. I mean, I, I hate to keep it that simple, but I think, I think those are two great starting points. I think for folks who aren't already embedded in projects and efforts to try to understand that, that's a great place to start. You know, listen to trust and believe, you know, those who are, are getting really tired of continually pointing at problems that tend to be persistent, pervasive, um, that are exhausting, that are real.

So instead of just, you know, trying to be defensive or to explain it away as all of those tropes of colorblindness often invite us to do, to, to be willing to hear it and to hold it and to say, Let's look together more closely at that. Let's think about how we can really carefully pay attention to those dynamics.

And let's think about the specific things, whatever that thing might be, that might give us something to try [00:26:00] to change that. And then we try together to change that. And if that doesn't work, we look at it more closely again and we try something else. I mean, it's really about kind of bringing, um, a scientific experimenter's sort of mindset to it.

But I think it has to be grounded in that trust, right? Both of those who have been telling us and telling us, and telling us that these problems are real, that they are systemic, uh, that they're pervasive, that they are long standing, right? So that's one road. In another road in is, is, you know, these things can often be studied.

Right. And not just sort of attitudes and beliefs. Yeah. But practices, um, barriers, you know, looking at folks who, who are, are hitting the glass ceiling and, and saying, gosh, we noticed that we never really see folks other than of one demographic who end up in these leadership positions. Something must be going on there.

Right. We have the evidence. In many cases, we just often are unwilling to look at it or name it, or to really roll up our sleeves and dig in and figure out how to work on it together. [00:27:00] Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: So for example, I heard this statistic about just film production in Los Angeles. The, the demographics in Los Angeles, about 20% of the population are white men.

The population of film production happening in Los Angeles is 80%

Dr. Meghan Burke: white men. Somehow, I guess that was gonna be a full inversion, and there it is, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: All inversion. Yeah. So, and, and is it because the white men are somehow more skilled than the only people who can do film production? I mean, it's laughable, right?

So, so then you gotta look at what is, what is actually the problem and to look at the data that way is, I think makes it really clear for people. I mean, you can't, you can't argue with that, and you can't really justify it either, right? So then you, you really have to

Dr. Meghan Burke: do something about it, right? Because I would imagine that justifications, that at least attempt to, uh, explain it away, are often also gonna reveal some of those, those tickets.

Well, th these are the folks who have the experience, well, okay, how did they get that experience? Why did they Exactly right. Uh, what are, well, but this, this is what we have, you know, [00:28:00] seen in the past. So it's what folks are imagining for themselves. Well then let's create, you know, other opportunities so that we have more diversity and representation and folks can see more opportunities that they maybe hadn't seen before.

I mean, and it's probably all of those things and 10 others, right? Um, yeah. But you know, it's, I think that soften, we imagine, That somehow fighting racism. And it is, it's incredibly challenging. I, you know, if it were easy, I would hope that we would've all gotten together and fixed it already. Right. But I have often wondered if one of the barriers isn't that we imagine it to just be this nebulous thing out there, rather than showing up in really concrete, specific spaces.

We're very ordinary things are going on that when we kind of zoom in and look at some of those things, just like the example that you named, well, gosh, there's all sorts of things that are available to try there, and there's all sorts of ways to get better information about what is and isn't happening.

Right. But we think instead we have to go fight the racism, right? What that looks like, right, is changing opportunities. What that looks like is changing systems, changing practices, changing [00:29:00] laws, changing policies. I mean, some of those things are very hard to do, but it's not as, as sort of, those all happen in very concrete, actually, often very ordinary ways.

It's

Julie Harris Oliver: not as hard as people think. I, I will say it over and over and over again. It is not that hard. I think I've said this before, maybe even on this podcast, but I know a lot of times white people might hear this and once they see it, think, oh my God, you want me to solve racism on my production? How on earth am I going to do that?

That's too big. Now that I realize that it's big. It's big, but it's the, the fix is. Not that hard. It's a million

Dr. Meghan Burke: baby steps. It's, that's exactly it. There's all these ordinary things that we do to make a production. And so how do we look at those things? How do we look at those steps along the way and how do we think about what's really fair, what's really equitable?

Right? What's really inclusive? What really is gonna be supportive to folks with all different identities and needs, who bring a diverse set of talents and skills to these spaces and who deserve to, to show up and, and [00:30:00] allow them to be actualized, right? So it's, it's exactly that. It's, it's a lot of little tiny steps and maybe you as an individual can't be the one to change all of them, but if you can cha everybody grab a handful.

This is a team sport. Uh, this is a team effort, right? If we all work on the thing where we feel like we have, um, or where we do have, um, and I think that's maybe half the battle too, is understanding that, that we do have more power than I think we realize then work on it together.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's a point worth saying again, cuz I've, I've talked to a lot of very powerful people who think it's the person above them who actually has the power.

And we have to remind everybody, everybody has the power to do something. You don't have to wait for the chairman of a studio to make a decision. Everyone has decision making power as you go along. That's exactly right. Let's talk about, and I don't know if either one of us has the answers here, but along the lines of colorblind, there's also been a lot of talk about colorblind casting, and there's been an [00:31:00] effort to, real quick, let's get representation on screen.

So sometimes there are roles that were just written probably with the assumption that it was gonna be a white man, and then someone says, wait, let's cast an Asian woman in that role. Or Let's cast a black woman in that role and. People get cast and just put into these shows, but then there's not a rewrite for their backstory that happens, so they just end up playing a role that was probably written for a white guy without adding anything to it.

And I know this isn't necessarily your area of expertise, but do you have any thoughts?

Dr. Meghan Burke: I do, I do. You know, and I've, I've done some consulting and in some art spaces in the past and, and you know, it is tricky, right? Because it, it, it's a lot like colorblindness as a whole, right? We, we take this ideal, right?

That one's. Shouldn't matter in shaping opportunities or in, you know, performance or any of those kinds of things. And then we act like, you know, that ideals already in place and then we sigh with relief. Well, we didn't do the [00:32:00] thing of perpetuating X, Y, or Z when actually in that very process. That's how we have helped really to, to create it.

Right. I mean, it seems like what you describe is, you know, asking a lot, not just of, of the actor to pretend that they're representing something that they are not, but to, you know, essentially check, check their lived experience at the door and not bring some of those nuances and realities into the role and into the art, but also of audiences and content creators, right.

To do such kind of like reinterpretations that, that seem like, I don't know it. Changes the process, right? It, it'd be like me walking in and saying, oh, everybody don't worry. Uh, please don't regard me as white today. I've decided not to be white today. Um, could, could you, could you just, you know, ignore the fact that I'm, I'm, you know, a cisgender white woman and her early forwarders, that that's just not who I am today.

Let, but, you know, business as usual, right? Like, how would I know? I dunno.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's like I'm gonna come in and play the part of the white man, right? Like, that's [00:33:00] basically what we're asking of people in a really crass way. Um, you know, there's a director who's a friend of mine, uh, that I'm gonna talk about.

Justin Emeka and he's, he's moving into film and television directing right now, but he's been a theater director and he often will take Shakespeare and cast it with black actors and also unapologetically bring in all the culture. With it, which absolutely transforms the peace, right? He's not casting black people to do Shakespeare in the way that white people in Elizabethan England did Shakespeare.

Right? Right. And it's an incredible reinterpretation and brings so much more to it, right? And

Dr. Meghan Burke: I think that's so much more respectful of all of the artists involved. Um, I think that that's so much more respectful of the audience to, to be rightly challenged, to think about, wow, how do I react to this performance differently based on, you know, the way that, that we do show up as embodied, right?

Um, you know, race, race is a [00:34:00] category that we have created to justify systems of oppression. It's a socially constructed category, but boy, have we made it real, right? And boy does it shape the way that, that all of our interactions take place, whether we're. Understanding that, seeing it, willing to name it or not.

Right? So like, yeah, let's, let's actually go there together and let's think those, let's have those reactions together and have those conversations. That to me seems like a, a very wise approach to, you know, doing more inclusive casting, especially for these performances that, that are, are in the cannon.

Right. And, and that folks may not want to leave behind, but yeah. How much more Interesting. Exactly. Exactly. Right. And how much more fair.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Okay. Now, besides just inviting people in to like majority white spaces, like, okay, come on in. How should we think about engaging more broadly?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah, I mean, I think some of that gets into that structural analysis, right?

So if, if we take that pretty literally, right, and [00:35:00] invite folks into, uh, majority white space, it's likely to be a built environment. Um, where, uh, where those, those, that literal structure probably, uh, it's at least worth interrogating whether or not that is a fair, equitable and inclusive one. But I think, I think on another level, you know, there's another kind of common thing that I see sometimes coming up in these spaces and these conversations, especially as folks are really trying to work on, on equity and inclusion, and it sounds kind of counterintuitive, but we really have to get out of this welcoming mindset.

Right, right. You know, I, it, it sounds unkind, uh, but it's, it's the same reason I sort of cringe when people, again, you know, usually these are, are incredibly well-meaning folks. And that again, brings us back to this distinction between impact, uh, and intention. Um, but folks wanna announce like a, a welcoming racial climate.

You know, welcoming makes sense for people who are. To a community or an institution. So anytime, uh, and I'm grateful to have this experience. Anytime I've [00:36:00] started, you know, a new job or moved into a new neighborhood, I've, I've been welcomed, right? Because I'm new, you know, even the, the Welcoming Cities initiatives, right?

For immigrant communities, you know, and we're in, folks usually are making a, an agreement, you know, not, not to call, uh, immigration and Customs Enforcement on undocumented folks, right? That tracks all good there. But really outside of that context, and especially when it's used in the context of d e I work as it so often is it actually ends up being really flawed.

So after all, like I, we tend to welcome people to places that belong to us, right? Right. So, like Julie, I would warmly welcome you into my. Into my office, into my family or, or whatever it might be.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, as long as I'm a good guest. Well, that plays by your rules.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Well, exactly right. And this is a house that is not built for you and it's, it's a place where you may not at all feel at home, but I'm welcoming you.

Right. But on, on an even more fundamental level, it really is positioning some folks kind of inherently as outsiders, [00:37:00] right? So it's another kind of sneaky way that it ends up being either white centric or other. Dominant identity centered, right? Oh, we, we welcome women into this, you know, boys club. Um, as long as Right.

Come, come golf with us. Exactly. Exactly. You know, it, it reminds me too, I don't know if, if, uh, and again, it's always well-meaning, always well-meaning, but you know, anytime you've heard, oh, well, you're more than welcome to, you know, join us at blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, usually when you haven't actually been invited, it's usually right when someone like, was like, am I, oh, you're around.

Oh, you're more than welcome. Right. Um, you know, it ends up working a lot like, like a tolerance framework that I rightly has largely been abandoned in those spaces. Right. I mean, Who, who wants to be tolerated? I'd rather be loved and respected and, right. Yeah. Treated. Treated as a peer. And I, and I think that's exactly it, right?

We have to work on who really belongs, who's really invited, who can be a real partner [00:38:00] instead of a patron. And that again, involves changing systems as well as our own internalized false white SuPM. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: That all makes so much sense. And I'm thinking about it in the context of production, which has been, you know, traditionally this very white, very male mm-hmm.

System and environment. And part of the challenge is literally getting everyone in. Mm-hmm. Right? And changing, changing the demographic of what that looks like, and creating a super inclusive culture where everybody can show up who they are and everyone doesn't have to walk in the room and act like a white guy.

Not that there's anything wrong with white guys, but has to take on that identity in order to be included.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Right. To play by those rules, to play by those cultural rules, to, to know those cultural scripts, to, to feel like they're really gonna belong in that space. Right. And, and I think part of it, and again, this takes work, it takes time, it takes willingness, but really this is, this is partly why working on equity.

Right, to make sure [00:39:00] that the systems themselves are fair and are providing the right kind of the right kind of tools to help us decide who gets to enter that room, right? Um, that is likely to make it more diverse. And that's also why we work on inclusion to, to care for those environments, to think about how to show up with respect, with collegiality, with the kind of, of authenticity that is going to be find comfort, find breathing room in those sorts of spaces rather than folks thinking, okay, I made it into this room, now I better pretend that I'm not who I actually am, so that I continue to be invited back so that people treat me like I'm welcome, right?

Rather than really trusting that I belong. So again, I think it's why equity and inclusion really are the things that help us earn the diversity that then further supports those systems.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I think that's one of the big challenges with production right now, because the, the work there is [00:40:00] not just diversity and hiring all kinds of people and getting them in because there's still so much of, and then let me tell you how production works.

You need to be quiet, you need to learn, you need to keep your head down until you get some power. Like we're asking to kind of revolutionize that whole working model, which I think can be really threatening to people. Although find me a person who loves the culture and thinks it's really great and it feels good and they're super healthy working 20 hours a day and not sleeping and being yelled at.

Like, tell me how that's so great. But that there's sort of, you know, a pride in having survived that and, and thrived in that. And so we're asking that whole culture to shift and bring more people in. And I, and I think the thing that's probably going to do it, not that we need to rely on, on generations, but generations coming into this environment are demanding it be different.

I think they're doing that across the board. They're, they're over capitalism before they've gotten into it. But, um, I, I think it's going to really force a change. And I think the people who are gonna be [00:41:00] most successful are the ones who really embrace it and do everything that they can to shift it.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Well, I sure hope that that's true.

And I, and I wonder if you'll see that dynamic, you know, the generation thing will almost become, not necessarily, you know, an an age generation though, though. I, I certainly hope and suspect that that'll be part of it. But the generation might be those who got in the door because, The systems have been attended to better, right?

And that will then shape the culture and the expectations and the practices. And so, you know, hopefully we don't have to wait a whole generation or only rely on, you know, the, the, not just like the, like the bravery or the resilience, but just like the willingness of folks to stick around. I mean, this is why retention becomes critical as well, because enough bad experiences, you know, people are gonna care for themselves and, and maybe look for other avenues, you know, whether that's other production companies, other ways of making media, you know, so it's, it, it's really like what are the alternatives here?

Who is actually having fun? No one, right? [00:42:00] Uh, so, so I, I hope that that generation is, is busting down the doors. Uh, and I hope those doors are being disman. I mean, it

Julie Harris Oliver: should be fun. It's, it's everyone's dream who ev people travel all over the world to get into the business cuz it is, you know, it's their dream.

So it, it should be at least a good time,

least a pleasant experience. We'll keep working towards that. Okay. We've talked about this a little bit, but I, I'd love to do a little bit of a deeper dive. If we're talking about, um, white people

who I

say that with such ease, okay. If we're talking about white people who are really invested in doing this work and really want things to be fair and really are interested in racial justice, at the same time are very afraid to talk about it, don't know what to do, are afraid of being canceled or saying the wrong thing or causing harm or, or even just trying to talk about it in a way that is different from how they were brought up to talk about it.

Like how do you advise people on where to even start?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Um, it doesn't matter. Just start. [00:43:00] Right? And I know that's way easier said than done because of all of those anxieties that we talked about before, right? Um, no one's gonna gonna get it right all the time, in part because the, it is forever changing. I think that really what matters is showing up as a partner, showing up with humility, showing up with a willingness to see, to talk, to learn to try.

And not being so, uh, you know, it's like the bold saying, you know, the, the, we, we too often, in fact, this is one of the tenets of the lie of white supremacy, right? As, as we were invested in this perfectionism right? And we really make the perfect, the enemy of the good, right? I think we have to mess up and still show up.

I think that we have to still work on educating ourselves and to help educate one another. But I, I fear that in, in recent re years, You know what, what many have called kind of this big racial reckoning, that what that means is that white folks are passing around books in their little free libraries, [00:44:00] staying in their houses and reading them and not showing up in community to really engage in dialogue, to really roll up our sleeves with one another in community, to really act in solidarity, to really be in the mess.

And it's gonna be messy, right? Um, there's gonna be disagreements, there's gonna be challenges, there's gonna be times when we trip and fall on our own face and all we have to do is say, oops, and get up and keep going. Right? And again, I know that is way easier said than done, but my God, what's the alternative?

Julie Harris Oliver: Right? You just have, you just have to push through the shame of, of the. Um, you brought up white supremacy and perfectionism being a characteristic of white supremacy. I thought that, um, recently when I learned about the characteristics of white supremacy, I thought that was so interesting. Mm-hmm. Would you mind talking about that a little bit?

Like what are some of the characteristics of a white supremacy culture? Yeah. You know, I,

Dr. Meghan Burke: I can do that, but actually I, I wanna go back to, to, to what you said about the shame because it's, it's so real, really like that [00:45:00] feeling is so strong for white folks, and, and I think it's, I think it sits underneath that fear to engage that we've been talking about.

Which again, when you set that next to the other fears, like, like we've already discussed, you know, really the, the scale, the scale breaks quickly, you know, as it should. You know, I, I, I used to talk about it like this, right? It's sort of like, you know, this whole notion of, of white guilt, again, which is a reality that a lot of white folks feel as they begin to get into this space, but like, It really has no lasting utility.

I mean, I would say it barely has any utility at all. Like, what, what do, what do you do? And let's, let's, let's not talk about race. Let's be colorblind for a minute. Not talk about race. Like think about a time when you have felt guilty about anything. How do, how do you tend to respond when you're like, Ooh.

I did something messed up.

Julie Harris Oliver: I will. Um, well, I'm, I'm a parent also. Um, I will, I will ruminate, I will sit on it. I will not [00:46:00] sleep. I will reenact every dumb thing I said or did for what, possibly years.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Mm-hmm. And while you're doing that, uh, if you're, if you're anything like me, so I, I definitely exhibit some similar behaviors.

Like when I'm really, when I really feel guilty, like, oh, I really messed up, or I feel shame, or I feel right. I tend to cower, I tend to hide, I tend to disengage. Uh, you know, certainly plenty of folks out there will, will lash out or they'll get defensive, right? I mean, None of those behaviors. Right. So if we think about that difference between the feeling which we can sit with, we can own, right?

Uh, a good, healthy emotional intelligence will, will invite us to feel that feeling. And then, right.

Julie Harris Oliver: And the other thing is to then go to that person Yes. And try to get them to absolve me and tell me it was okay

actually. Exactly. We should

not [00:47:00] be doing in this arena.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Right. I think that self interrogation, self-awareness is critical.

And when we win again, when rather than if how, when, in what ways are we messing up? Right. And to be honest and reflective about that is critical. We, we can't not do that otherwise we're gonna be, you know, the most annoying, oppressive person ever. Right. But it's, it's a place to start and not a place to stay otherwise again.

And, and I think this circles back to your question about these tenets of, of white supremacy, the lie of white supremacy. Right. And, and the culture of white supremacy is that it makes it all about us. Yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I have had, um, I, I have had several instances lately where I have messed up mm-hmm. And I have ruminated for a day, and I've had to weigh, do I go back and apologize?

Or is that bringing it up again? Did they notice, is this about me? Am I trying to get them to comfort me? And at the same time, I owe that person an apology? So I've, I've done that dance [00:48:00] recently and, and I can think of a couple examples. One time I did go and apologize and not, and I was very clear about you don't, you don't need to comfort me.

I'm not even gonna repeat what I said. I know you clocked it. I'm here to apologize. I'm very sorry. I'm working on it. And I don't always go back and apologize if it's something. I just need to sit in my, in my shame and, and figure out how not to do, again, trying to gauge how, what I think the harm is. What do you think about that calculation and how we, how we should approach that?

Dr. Meghan Burke: I think that calculation will never spit out the same answer. No matter what we put in for those variables right there, I mean, it, it so much depends on the relationship. So much depends on the person. So much depends on where we are in the process. You know, similarly, you know, we, uh, I think as white folks, one of the things that we can do is, is hold each other accountable and have the conversation of, okay, how and in what ways do I wanna show up differently next time?

Rather than if, or weather, right. It says, I keep repeating the, the theme there, right. When, right. Yes. [00:49:00] When rather than if Right. We mess up. Um, and so I think there's not a great answer to any of that. There's, uh, you know, I I, I'd love to be able to come in and say, oh, every time this happens, go do that.

Right? But that can be just as fraught and that can be just, just as problematic. Right. Um, well

Julie Harris Oliver: luckily it's going to be different every time.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Exactly. Exactly. So it's sort of like, okay, what can I take from this into my next Interac? Like, what's the lesson that I've learned? Um, how can I take responsibility for, for what happened?

How can I. You know, go in and, and tinker with whatever needs tinkering with, right? For, for, you know, if it was, you know, something that had material consequences, you know, how, how can I step into correct those? If it's about the relationship, how can I be honest and responsible and mature and address it?

You know, again, that's always gonna look different depending on the relationship and, and the person that you're in dialogue with. But other than that, it's really about like, okay, how do I make sure that next time I show up a little bit better and how can I hold myself accountable? How can we as white folks hold each other [00:50:00] accountable as we go through that journey together?

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm tempted to give an example in, in the effort of transparency, we, we could take this out, which too, whatever, but, um, I, I have found my, one of my practices right now is to install my filter. I make. All the time. And that is part of my shtick. I find funny in whatever's happening, in whatever conversation, and I spit out jokes all the time.

And n not as a way to congen myself, but just a fact. I have three black children. I was married to a black man and had black family for a while. And the way we joked inside of our house, I, I ha it was my family. And I could joke in a certain way. Sometimes I forget walking around in the world that I am walking around in a white lady body and I cannot make the jokes that I might make with my children.

And so I've had to really work on installing that filter cuz it has gotten me in trouble. And then to give that whole explanation that I just gave to someone who I've really just heard because I was an asshole, because I [00:51:00] said something that I thought was funny in a different context. It's an ongoing.

Ongoing practice.

Dr. Meghan Burke: It is an ongoing practice. And, and some of what I hear in that is the thing that anyone who sits with a privileged identity, which is many of us, right? Because we are not just embodied in, uh, racial categories and racial identities, right? But we, we hold all sorts of other intersecting interlocking identities.

And so, you know, it's, uh, one of the things that privilege always wants is for us to forget that we are actually embodi. Right. And so some of what I hear in that is how much work it takes to remember that we're white, which sounds so obvious and sounds so basic. Um,

Julie Harris Oliver: but we are not generic people. Exactly.

We have an identity, right?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. White folks have a race just like everyone else. And owning that. And, and in fact, you know, this goes back to, you [00:52:00] know, some of, some of my scholarly background as well when I was starting my dissertation in, in the mid aughts, you know, a lot of the conversation around this was sort of, couldn't imagine that that white folks really could understand ourselves as racial beings.

That it was just, you know, sort of cognitively impossible for us to ever know, to ever understand, to ever talk about, to be thoughtful about the, the ways that, that we have a race, right? Race isn't something that just happens to people of color, right? That it, that it's happen to us, right? And in every single moment, that's worth staying in every single interaction, right?

And so how and in what ways do we work with that understanding, which is often, like we were talking about earlier, you know, partial and flawed and messy, and you know, like any form of privilege really, you know, we have created a. Culture in so many institutions that almost never invite us to see that.

And so that ongoing Oh, oh, oh, right. That, that I think you're discussing there. It, it's, it's, it's a forever [00:53:00] process. But, uh, but I think we learn all our hardest lessons through our biggest mistakes. And so, uh, you know, this is where we, we get better at it with time. This is part of the work. It is. This is the work.

Julie Harris Oliver: Can you talk a little bit more about, I mean, you've touched on it, but the, the whole, and Dr. Banks mentioned it in her interview about how we might be so invested, is seeing ourself as a good white person. You know, I'm one of the good guys and to confront that is, is really so difficult. How can that stand in the way of actually doing the work?

And how do you put that down and put that part? It's really ego. How do you put that down and really

Dr. Meghan Burke: engage? Yeah, I mean, it, it's, it sort of goes back to, to the thing that I've been saying, you know, we, we operate in such binaries, right? Am I a racist or am I not? Instead of how and in what ways, right. Am I one of the good ones or one of one of the bad ones, right?

Do do I have the racism? Right? Um, or, or is it [00:54:00] contagious? Did I get exactly, did I get the vaccine and now, now I just can't be right. But I mean, I think a lot of us operate on that ba on that basis. You know, we assume that if we hold certain politics, that we have the vaccine, um, we assume that, that if we, you know, hold other marginalized identities, Right.

That we couldn't, you know, we couldn't possibly. And so again, it's, it's, it's how and in what ways instead of how, or if

Julie Harris Oliver: it's like, it's like the outrage of I can't be racist, I'm a liberal. Exactly.

Dr. Meghan Burke: I'm, I'm a woman. I'm a woman. Such a feminist, you know, or, or I toom oppressed. Exactly. Exactly. And you know, and again, I think part of it is, is that we're rarely sanctioned though increasingly we have been thank goodness, right.

For, for showing up that way. It's part of how we learn kind of this whole colorblind framework, right? That that, that we don't have to think about our, our race or ourselves. But, you know, I think more, more importantly to your point there, I mean, I think. You know, if we focus so much on like, you know, I'm gonna be one of the good ones, right?[00:55:00]

Um, and that's where all of our energy and all of our focus goes, and that's, that's how we're just spending all of our bandwidth. Then, you know, we're just, as you said, we're making it all about us, which is the whole thing that is white folks. We need to unlearn, right? That those, those are often the oppressive practices that create a lack of an inclusive environment at the very least.

Right. You know, attending to and, and caring for, you know, the privileges that we have not earned. That's what makes them privileges. Right. The honored advantages, I mean, just like, you know, we were talking earlier about the, you know, the push to eradicate affirmative action. It, it's also self-protective.

Right. And it's tricky because it comes from that place of anxiety that we've talked about where, oh my gosh, I, I, I would hate to be found out as one of the racists, right? But, but when we focus so much on, on making sure that we're not. You know, considered that way. I mean, a, you know, we're not fooling anybody.

Right. Um, you [00:56:00] know, but, but much like Dr. Banks said as well, you know, it's really easy. There's, there's a long, ugly history that has showed up, you know, in all sorts of ways where there are plenty of, of good people that can exist inside of a, a, a bad system, especially when we think good just means nice, or I didn't say the n word, or I didn't make whatever kind of joke, or I'm, I'm, you know, um, I'm really fun to be around or, or any of that kind of stuff, you know?

I'm so nice. Exactly. Yeah. So it, it, it really, I think we somehow forget, even though it should be painfully obvious that it's, it's an incredibly self-centered approach. Right. You know, another way that, that I think I've seen this work and, and we talked about this, right, is, is to sort of be like, Have this idea that we can wiggle out of our whiteness by focusing on those other identities.

Right. And again, like it's just, it's just not how it works. It, you know, more and more folks are, are using these days the language of intersectionality. But intersectionality is simply the [00:57:00] recognition of the reality. That, uh, we all hold multiple social identities that matter to the outside world and that are shaping our lives and who we are and our experiences in a whole variety of, of interlocking complex ways.

But we tend to think of it instead as, as this kind of point system, right? So if, if I have more marginalized identities than I do privileged ones, then, then somehow I won a game. That actually means on the rest of the world I'm losing. But, but it gets me out of this whole thing where I have to be complicit with, with, uh, racism and whiteness, right?

Instead of being like, no, like white ant. Well, it's is

Julie Harris Oliver: the oppression Olympics

Dr. Meghan Burke: is one of the events. Right? Exactly. Exactly. Right. And so, you know, it's, it's, again, it's a, it's a bad habit that, that, I think one of the ways that we can hold each other accountable as white folks is, is kind of, you know, gently challenging, uh, or firmly challenging challenge.

However you need to challenge, um, in, in those kinds of moments. Cuz it, it, it really doesn't help. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: So we know that just assuming that we are a good [00:58:00] person and therefore none of this is really my problem. I think I would say if you're, if you're calling yourself a good person and you see the systemics problems, it's on you to start fixing it.

Sure. So get in there, get in there and do the work. But what are some of the other things that. That really get in our way.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah. I mean, on one level it's kind of tangled up in that. Right? And this is where it goes back to, to some of my academic research where I've, I've actually looked across the political spectrum.

So, uh, it's, it's easy and especially in such a, a polarized political environment like the one that we're in to, you know, it's like, it's more of that finger pointing thing. Like they're the bad ones, that's the bad party. Those are the folks, right? Who, who are doing the harm and, and I'm on the side of good and, and all of that.

You're terrible. Exactly. Exactly. Right. But really that the, the colorblind framework really is found evident throughout the political system, right? And, um, I've done research but also worked in Right, hello higher ed, uh, so-called progressive spaces where, where people have been really deeply unwilling to break out of the framework of colorblindness and, and [00:59:00] for white folks to, you know, to ask the how and it ways question for fear of it illuminating the IF and weather.

And I think one of the kind of gnarly ways that that shows up is, and, and I think this, this taps into some of what we were talking about previously as well. So I've also written about a form of racism that I labeled sympathetic racism, right? Hmm. Which really ends up just being that cultural racism frame.

That's the one that wants to kind of blame your credit culture and, and ignore, you know, structural, um, barriers or, or unfair systems of advantage, right? So it's like that cultural racism frame that, that's kind of layered and presented with, with Petty, right? It's like saying like, oh, it's just, it's just too bad that some families, you know, don't, don't teach the right values to their kids.

Or, you know, oh gosh. It's just such a shame that internalized racism that, that people of color, you know, seem to have. It's, it's really holding them back. Isn't that sad? Right. Which, you know, uh, there's, there's a million things wrong with all of that. Right. Um, part [01:00:00] of it, you know, I think really. Makes evident the lack of, of real experience with folks of, of color, um, who, who engage in, in those realities in, in much more complex ways.

Like so for example, right? Um, internalized racism, uh, is, is a much more layer and much more nuanced. Uh, there's a lot more resilience. There's, you know, it's, it's an a, it's a deep awareness and there there's just so much more going on there than like, oh, it's just too bad that they, they have the racism too.

Right? Um, how insulting

Julie Harris Oliver: that you tell them that they're suffering under a system of

Dr. Meghan Burke: oppression. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, it distorts the, the resilience and the other kind of well honed coping strategies and, and any marginalized person develops in the face of those systems of oppression, right? Uh, that, which by the way, they see and understand, again, far more clearly than we do from that sort of pitying, sympathetic, quote unquote, um, sort of perspective.

I mean, no one wants our pity. Right. No. What, what, what we need [01:01:00] and, and what folks who experience the harms of oppression, which I would argue we all do, right, is, is for us to show up and to help to change, uh, those houses and vehicles where we still hold the keys, right? So, so that's one. It's, it's just kind of getting out of that.

So what's interesting there is that, that I saw that even across the political spectrum, right? You know, kind of well-meaning white liberals, um, as well as some pretty far right conservatives, um, in another project that I did kind of showed up in really similar ways there. So I think it's, I think it's another thing to look out for, cuz it's one of the expressions of the, I'm one of the good ones cuz I care so much and it's so sad that this is a thing and yet right.

Lacks that deeper analysis and, and lacks that willingness to do anything about it. Okay. Speaking

Julie Harris Oliver: of lacking the awareness, can we talk about, just as we're, we're coming up on, we've, we've done a lot of time, let's talk about the concerted. Effort to make sure that people don't learn anything about this in school.

Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, Florida, hello. And now it's really seems to be sweeping across the south of, [01:02:00] and not to, not to lump in the south, but Texas, Florida, um, where people are freaking out about c r t in schools and teaching. I mean, Florida just banned teaching of African American history at all, like book banding.

What, what, what are we doing?

Dr. Meghan Burke: Yeah, I mean, we're, we are legislating colorblindness, right? We're mandating it. I mean, it's, it's, it's colorblindness in action, right? I mean, it, it's, it's, it shouldn't be surprising and yet it's astonishing, right? Uh, we're clearly, when I say we as white folks, I say we as, uh, reflective of those systems of power that are really looking to be more firmly entrenched through these policies that are, are horrific, right?

Well, it's like we're so. That looking clearly at our history, at our institutions, at our culture will like, I don't know, like hurt the feelings of white folks or, you know, white folks have such a long history of just being so afraid of the anger, right? The totally justified anger and [01:03:00] frustration of people of color.

And that's because of our own history and actions. It's because of the, the things, uh, that we have done that, that make that anger justified. That it's like, it won't let us look, it won't let us see it, it won't let us learn, right? In schools, we are not allowed to learn, to explore, to build community and connection, right?

Um, which is the thing that anti-racist organizing meaningfully does, right? Um, so it, it, it clearly doesn't want us to do any of those things, you know, it's chilling for our democracy. Um, and it really, it really guarantees the existence, the ongoing existence. Of an anti-democratic system. It's, it's really troubling.

It's not great. No. And I think it also reveals how fragile whiteness is. Yeah. You know, so many identities that have been built. Right. So whiteness is, is just as unreal. And yet we have made as real as, as any other racial category, right. It was created to justify unfair power systems. But, but it [01:04:00] won't let us, it won't let us see it, it won't let us name it, you know, it, it prevents us from, from really understanding.

I mean, this is the thing too. I think white folks who find ways to still show up, engage, learn, be in community, there's, there's so much fear, right. I think of it's, it, you know, we've talked about this a couple times along the way, you know, and I, I think it just prevents us from getting there in a way where we can experience what I think so many white folks who do engage in this.

Actually experience when we go there, when we have those conversations, when we look hard at those systems, when we work on changing policies, which is warmth and connection and community and freedom, right? All of this stuff comes from engaging and cross racial solidarity, but it tells us that, that we can't even get near that third rail or, or there's gonna be some sort of deathly electric charge in instead of real, real connection.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's

Julie Harris Oliver: bizarre and it's such a, it's such an American. Thing like, uh, I'm about to wax on

Dr. Meghan Burke: about [01:05:00] something I know nothing about, so I'm gonna stop right there. Okay. What, uh, since every,

Julie Harris Oliver: everything is terrible and hopeless, um, what, what would you leave us with? It's actually a glimmer of hope.

What can we do? What can we think about? What, what are the bright lights on the

Dr. Meghan Burke: horizon? Yeah. Well, um, you know, I, I mentioned this earlier, but you know, when, when I started working on my dissertation in the mid aughts, you know, even, even a lot of those, you know, scary critical race scholars, um, were, were really contending that that white people had no idea that we were white.

We couldn't possibly coherently, you know, think or talk about race or especially our own whiteness. You know, and, and, and my research and, and alongside some others really has, has proven that that's simply not true. I think even then I was asking how and in what ways. Uh, white folks think about our own racial identities rather than if we did or could.

And it doesn't mean that we always think about it in in, in helpful or, or progressive ways, but, you know, I think fast forward a generation or so now, right? And we, we [01:06:00] have seen at least the beginnings, I think of, of a deep racial reckoning. You know, I, I do often agree with those who have been critical of, of the longevity of that racial reckoning.

Uh, or, or the real commitments that are, that are coming through there. Um, you know, I, I think that's, cuz people are still stuck on, on somehow trying to think that that their task, that our task is to fight racism itself instead of really focusing on, okay, well how, how does that show up in concrete ways in your life?

And so asking how and in what ways, right? I think, I think is forever our guide and, and you know, that can look all sorts of ways, you know, how how do we support those who are, who are struggling on the frontline? Right, and, and, and how do we get to those front, front lines and struggle alongside them?

There's all sorts of movements that are, that are really exciting and promising taking place right now. You know, the labor movement teachers are organizing, you know, more and more medical school students are, are demanding to learn about the social determinants of health and, and how to really, Actively engage, uh, anti-biased training.

[01:07:00] So, so that they don't make the same mistakes, uh, that have been so prevalent in the medical system in the past. The movement for Black Lives, of course, right. Uh, that I know, at least in my community. Um, yes, you hear folks out on the street saying Black Lives matter and, and, and what a simple statement of dignity and, and the vitriol that that evokes is, is, is still kind of shocking.

But you know, how that shows up is looking at our policing systems, at looking at our education system, looking at, you know, very ordinary things that, that don't sound as scary, I think as, as too many folks imagine. You know, really it comes down to we all just have to look at our own spheres of influence, our workplaces, our school boards, our police, our neighborhoods, and there.

In each of those, our, our faith communities. If, if that's where you engage, right? And see the concrete places that we can actually make some real contributions toward equity and inclusion, it's not gonna look like going out and fighting this nebulous thing called racism. Uh, I grew up, I grew up in the era of, of watching the old show, [01:08:00] Pete and Pete, where like one of the characters of God and try to like beat up the ocean, right?

Uh, aids were rolling in, right? It, it was a fruitless and, and sort of hilarious endeavor. But instead, right, h how and in what ways is racism and, and unfair advantages, um, and disadvantages showing up in the places where I care about and to just show up, get curious, stay engaged, and start somewhere.

Julie Harris Oliver: Dr.

Meghan Burke, thank you so much for doing this.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I love this podcast, and it was, it was an honor to be here. Where can people find you if you want people to find you? Sure. You can find me on LinkedIn. Um, my handle there is Meghan, b p h d. Uh, my first name is spelled with an H, so m e g h a n b p h d.

Uh, thank you forever to one of my students who, who urged me to take that handle, uh, for everything that I have. Uh, and, and I do have a website. It's Meghan Burke, so m e g h a n b u r k e weebley.com.

Julie Harris Oliver: The weebley part is important. [01:09:00] If you just do the.com, you find somebody else. I learned the hard way. Oh, no.

Dr. Meghan Burke: Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you. Alright, thank you. You've been listening to the other 50% A Herstory of Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Oliver, thank you to Dr. Meghan Burke for sharing your expertise. And special thanks to Jay Rowe, Danny Rosner and Allison McQuaid for the music. Go check out the Catch A Break podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry.

You can find this podcast on the other 50 percent.com, all spelled out in letters and on all the podcast places. And you can find me and my work@julieharrisoliver.com. Thanks for listening. See you next time.